[LevisNox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

Kamen Rider has almost always been a show for kids under 10. The early Heisei series (Kuuga through Kabuto) are the outlier, not the norm.

Also, it is impossible for Majade to be the worst secondary Rider in a franchise where DiEnd or Beast exist.

that's bluntly false

everything from showas to Heisei has been clearly for teens the stories the coming of age

hell AMAZON WASNT FOR KIDS Black wasn't design for kids. Kamen rider was never design for kids of 10 and under it was clearly design for kids of 11 to 16 or so

super sentai even had some more adult like seasons, but it was design mainly for kids

if you think its been design only for kids of 10 and under then you clearly didn't watch showa nor did you watch past kabuto

[DKVikeStrike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevisNox

that's bluntly false

everything from showas to Heisei has been clearly for teens the stories the coming of age

hell AMAZON WASNT FOR KIDS Black wasn't design for kids. Kamen rider was never design for kids of 10 and under it was clearly design for kids of 11 to 16 or so

super sentai even had some more adult like seasons, but it was design mainly for kids

if you think its been design only for kids of 10 and under then you clearly didn't watch showa nor did you watch past kabuto

Bruh.

I can't tell if you're in denial, or what, but I'm just gonna break it to you; Rider is aimed at kids in that exact age range.

Yeah, it can have darker stories and the like, but at its core, it's a kids show. Dark story elements aren't unheard of in kids media. And coming of age is in, like every Disney movie ever and more kids cartoons than I'd care to list off here.

You also can't compare late Heisei/Reiwa Rider to the Showa era; Rider started half a century ago and sensibilities and what people thought appropriate in kids media has changed a lot. Here in the west, these sensibilities have changed a lot as well.
Hell, by your logic, Sentai is also not aimed at kids because of some of the stuff they got away with during the Showa era.

Furthermore, Kamen Rider, like many other kids shows, is a glorified toy commercial now. Do you think it's just coincidental that they have kids in some of their commercials? Or have you convinced yourself that "Oh the toys are for little kids, but the show is definitely teens and up"? Because... yeah, no.

I'm not denying that Rider doesn't have appeal for older age demographics - after all, we're here - but Rider is a kids show.

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zolda

There's a standard (or perhaps the standard) that has been established in the Kamen Rider franchise since the very first entry. A heroine, in this franchise, is almost always (if not always) a young woman who is a peer of the protagonists, who exposes her skin to the risks and dangers of the battlefield, yet is able to stand strong and maintain her courage, provides emotional support to the protagonists, and nurtures the bonds between them. Heroines are often the ones who mediate and soften the interpersonal conflicts and misunderstandings between the protagonists, and sometimes even act as diplomatic representations of the protagonists' side. The strength and courage of the heroines don't come from muscles nor power, but from their nurturing nature.

• Mako and Chieko are mostly just comedic.
• Sakurako mostly translated Unidentified Lifeform texts.
• Hina's strength literally also comes from muscles and power.
• Akari mostly did science, while Onari was the emotional support.
• Tsukuyomi was paranoid about Sougo betraying her.
• Sakura isn't nurturing at all.

Maybe you could say they're all "bad" heroines except for Hina who happens to fit the nurturing description, but the point is that the Showa Era mould isn't necessarily applicable to modern heroines. Personally, I like the first 4 in the above list, as they still contributed to the hero's success through other means and Hina is maybe one of the best candidates to be both a heroine and a Rider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zolda

This philosophy of "feminine/gentle strength" was even elegantly elaborated in several scenes and dialogue lines in KR Gaim. Damn you Urobuchi! Haha.

The show where the heroine becomes a living trophy for 2 Riders to fight over.... Hmm, not exactly what I'd call elegant. I think Mesnick would have more to say on this matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zolda

If Rinne is not the heroine, then who? Who? Please enlighten me on this one. This is one of the reasons why I've concluded that Gotchard's story is so hollow, vapid, and lethargic. This is one of the reasons why I've concluded that Gotchard is having an identity crisis. It can't even decide who the heroine is! Let that sink in.

Officially, nobody. Does Kamen Rider Gotchard need a heroine? If emotional support is what you value in a heroine, then Houtarou already has over 100 friends he can get that from. A heroine would just be redundant here. Call Flayrose the heroine if you want, it doesn't matter. Alternatively, it's easier to think that Houtarou and Rinne are each other's heroine, since they fulfill both functions of providing and receiving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zolda

I've also never had any problem with a secondary Rider having only 2 forms, or rather, 2 base forms in KR Majade's case. KR Ixa, KR Accel, KR Birth, KR Meteor, KR Beast, KR Baron (excluding his kaijin form), KR Mach (excluding the Chaser Mach and Mach Chaser forms) also had 2 forms.

Depends on how you define forms. IXA had Save Mode in 1986, but then it became obsolete to Burst Mode. Birth is a weird one, since all his changes are attachments. Beast has 6 forms if you count his Mantles. Balon has Banana, Mango and Lemon Energy Arms, although the last one was apparently added due to popularity. Why would you exclude Chaser Mach, when it's basically his Final Form?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin

Seems there is a familiar face showing up in this years' movie...

Hell yeah, the OG DecaDriver is back!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchilada645

That's also not getting into how just... terrible this statement reads at all. And your attempt at elaborating still does not make this read any better btw.

You're going to refute this point btw, and tell me I'm wrong. I really don't care tbh. But I know what I see because I see the same in a lot of Rider fans. And I'm just putting this out here for anyone who comes across it to see. Because it's a damn problem in this fandom that needs to be addressed and it's tiring to see people try and promote their personal distaste for a series as objective criticism. A rigidness of people unwilling to realize that times are changing and that things will be different than what they originally saw.

Agreed. It's basically gatekeeping, like, "a true Primary Rider wouldn't do this", or, "a true heroine must do this". Each year, KR shows us a new story with new characters, so of course they have to function a little differently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zolda

Everything has its own established standards/aspects. Some of those aspects can be changed, and some can't be changed due to being fundamental. Some change is good, and some is bad. If I want to change a franchise merely for the sake of changing it, then I should replace Kamen Rider's main character with a young woman, and replace Precure's main characters with boys, effectively rebranding the franchise as Handsome Cure. They're changes, right? They're "innovative", right? Maybe someday it will happen when humanity decide that left is right and right is left.

A female Secondary Rider isn't breaking fundamentals though, especially since Rinne isn't a heroine. Secondary Riders weren't even a thing until 2001, so the concept can be experimented with depending on what the narrative requires of them. Honestly, while the reveal of Majade was surprising, Amelia becoming a Red Ranger and leader was the most surprising.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevisNox

Compare to kamen rider Jeane who is a third rider and is just great, hell compare her to Rinne she feels more like a secondary rider

Jeanne's focus was forced by Kinoshita as revenge for Toei denying him a female Primary Rider. She's also a pretentious edgy teenager, so I can totally understand why she appeals to you. No offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevisNox

On top of that alchemy isn't alchemy, but rather its now friendship and the fact Gotachard form is rainbow WHICH MAKES NO SENSE in every aspect of the show

Rainbows don't make sense? What do you think the "Niji" in Nijigon means?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevisNox

You can say all you want i complain but my criticism is very much true

Criticism is subjective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

Also, it is impossible for Majade to be the worst secondary Rider in a franchise where DiEnd or Beast exist.

Or Live.

[LevisNox]

Sh fucking really, FUCKING REALLY, you going off and make a back handed low blow fucking statement as if an edgy teenager appeals to me

Also you don't understand what a EDGY teenager is Kirto is edgy solo leveling protag is edgy


Sakura Igarashi ISNT FUCKING EDGY now kamen rider live/evil HES EDGY


Sakura Igarashi is a tomboy, shes outgoing, energetic can have her moments of weakness shes not fucking edgy

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevisNox

Sh fucking really, FUCKING REALLY, you going off and make a back handed low blow fucking statement as if an edgy teenager appeals to me

Also you don't understand what a EDGY teenager is Kirto is edgy solo leveling protag is edgy


Sakura Igarashi ISNT FUCKING EDGY now kamen rider live/evil HES EDGY


Sakura Igarashi is a tomboy, shes outgoing, energetic can have her moments of weakness shes not fucking edgy

You're always talking about how KR should be for teens and getting frustrated that Gotchard appeals too much to kids, so yeah, you give the impression that you enjoy the edge.

Live is stupid and obsessed with doing everything the "right" way, but he's not edgy. I mean, he wears white and has an angel motif, where is the edge?

Evil is definitely edgy, but he's a devil and he owns it. He's not pretentious like Sakura, a human who cries about not being invincible.

[Frontier]

I'm still convinced at this point that Inoue just sublets at Toei studios.

[LevisNox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

You're always talking about how KR should be for teens and getting frustrated that Gotchard appeals too much to kids, so yeah, you give the impression that you enjoy the edge.

Live is stupid and obsessed with doing everything the "right" way, but he's not edgy. I mean, he wears white and has an angel motif, where is the edge?

Evil is definitely edgy, but he's a devil and he owns it. He's not pretentious like Sakura, a human who cries about not being invincible.

your tossing words into my month I have said a number of times kamen rider was gauge more to preten to teen not just teens and I have said only the newer seasons have been more to kids

Also its kinda why overall they toss more toys as of late. Cause they use to do a story first toys second now its toys first story second

So how about you think and god damn read

Also Live was edgy he had a whole edgy arc about IM MOST WORK FOR THE POWERFUL DEMON TO SAVE THE WORLD

That shit was edgy

[Sunred]

A thought I had after I heard DAIGO is Daybreak was this must've been the same sentiment that people felt back in the 80s when they heard the news that Michael Keaton will be Batman 89.
Because having seen DAIGO since the 2000s I remember him more as a comedic personality on tv except for when he goes badass mode as a singer.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Officially, nobody. Does Kamen Rider Gotchard need a heroine? If emotional support is what you value in a heroine, then Houtarou already has over 100 friends he can get that from. A heroine would just be redundant here. Call Flayrose the heroine if you want, it doesn't matter. Alternatively, it's easier to think that Houtarou and Rinne are each other's heroine, since they fulfill both functions of providing and receiving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

A female Secondary Rider isn't breaking fundamentals though, especially since Rinne isn't a heroine. Secondary Riders weren't even a thing until 2001, so the concept can be experimented with depending on what the narrative requires of them. Honestly, while the reveal of Majade was surprising, Amelia becoming a Red Ranger and leader was the most surprising.

Heroine simply only means the female term for hero. If you're a heroic individual and a female, then you're a heroine. If you're a heroic individual and transform into a Rider, then you fit both not that you can only be one or the other (and typically heroic individual is what it takes to be a Rider). Houtaro isn't a heroine, because he's a male, thus he's a hero. Emotional support or mediating conflicts and misunderstandings are just another way to save the day alongside defeating bad guys, what matters is you do good not that you have to do things in certain way to be a hero/heroine (gender based).

I'm getting sick of how in my country, English isn't the first language, heroine term is used for major female characters (particularly what they find hot) like Ora, early Aguilera, or occasionally Berobitch. If one'd deny that female Riders are heroines because of how that role is usually done in the past, it's more about the problem with KR turning females into one or back in the past, them only being one-offs or dying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Agreed. It's basically gatekeeping, like, "a true Primary Rider wouldn't do this", or, "a true heroine must do this". Each year, KR shows us a new story with new characters, so of course they have to function a little differently.

Yes tbh. Those who claim heroine should be supportive non-fighters are just the same ones as those who claim primary Rider should be the straight up heroic one and secondary Rider should be the edgy one, etc, because usually their roles are like that. Roles mean nothing to characterization, even if many are typically made that way in that role. For non-KR tropes, there are those who claim that being protagonist means they should be likable, always right, always hold the moral high ground, because of thinking that the term protagonist equates hero, when it's not, protagonist only means main character, even if many protagonists are made heroic.

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

I'm still convinced at this point that Inoue just sublets at Toei studios.

He's just a passing through Kamen Rider. Remember that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevisNox

your tossing words into my month I have said a number of times kamen rider was gauge more to preten to teen not just teens and I have said only the newer seasons have been more to kids

A number of times, like plural? I only count once that you mention preteens before. If you can cite a second post, then please do. Otherwise, this feels like a repeat of the Bun Violet case where you basically forget what you said and deny that you made a mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevisNox

Also Live was edgy he had a whole edgy arc about IM MOST WORK FOR THE POWERFUL DEMON TO SAVE THE WORLD

That shit was edgy

I'm sticking with "stupid" to describe that arc. If Daiji had known that Gif was lying and continued to serve him anyway, then that would be edgy. In the end, he was just a gullible idiot, like so many people in this show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Heroine simply only means the female term for hero. If you're a heroic individual and a female, then you're a heroine. If you're a heroic individual and transform into a Rider, then you fit both not that you can only be one or the other (and typically heroic individual is what it takes to be a Rider). Houtaro isn't a heroine, because he's a male, thus he's a hero. Emotional support or mediating conflicts and misunderstandings are just another way to save the day alongside defeating bad guys, what matters is you do good not that you have to do things in certain way to be a hero/heroine (gender based).

I'm getting sick of how in my country, English isn't the first language, heroine term is used for major female characters (particularly what they find hot) like Ora, early Aguilera, or occasionally Berobitch. If one'd deny that female Riders are heroines because of how that role is usually done in the past, it's more about the problem with KR turning females into one or back in the past, them only being one-offs or dying.

Yeah sure, I know that. I think the fault lies with Toei then, since the staff use "heroine" as a term for a specific archetype instead of the literal meaning of the word. Rinne is a heroine, but she's not the heroine, if that makes sense. I mean, it doesn't, but that's Toei's internal logic anyway. Like you said, the infamous Female Rider Curse is a whole thing and I think the franchise is still kind of recovering from that, as some people have unfair expectations of female characters becoming Riders, expecting them to suck and/or get killed. To the extreme that even if a female character is a bad character, they don't mind as long as she can fight and impose on others, which is such a toxic way of thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Yes tbh. Those who claim heroine should be supportive non-fighters are just the same ones as those who claim primary Rider should be the straight up heroic one and secondary Rider should be the edgy one, etc, because usually their roles are like that. Roles mean nothing to characterization, even if many are typically made that way in that role. For non-KR tropes, there are those who claim that being protagonist means they should be likable, always right, always hold the moral high ground, because of thinking that the term protagonist equates hero, when it's not, protagonist only means main character, even if many protagonists are made heroic.

Like those who would deny Ace and Tendo being protagonists, claiming that they're not the usual archetype. Yeah, the protagonist is the main focus of the story and sometimes they're not easy to relate to, but it's still about them. Even when we hate the protagonist, their role stays the same. Likewise for heroines, at least by the literal meaning, as long as they meet the criteria of being female and heroic/antiheroic, the smaller details are irrelevant to that role. Ultimately, the plot should move based on characters' actions, not the other way around, while the role of protagonist and antagonist can change depending on who's the narrative focus.