[Kiwami]

The Desire Grand Prix isn't a drama show though, it’s a game show. The participants are real. Hence their fans and supporters, or rather the bad seeds among them, are our worlds idol supporters and pop-star worshippers. Not j-drama fans.

What we watch is fake drama, we know and enjoy that. These people want real drama; they want to see real people suffer. That’s the stuff Geats criticizes, how people forget that participants in public events or performances are real people too. How they are pushed into extreme situations over and over again like playthings to eventually break for entertainment purposes.

At least that’s how I understood it. Being a Kamen Rider in their universe just means idol in ours. Feeling aggravated as a Kamen Rider fan about that feels to me like you’re missing the point. You're getting irritated by the analogy itself rather then what it points at.

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Basically, outside of just finding it really boring to sit through, I just felt that Geats got really, really pretentious the farther it went on. It became clear that it was less concerned about being a story and more about sticking it to the audience.

Like, do I agree with the people who go into media just wanting to enjoy drama and suffering and not much else? No, but in the end that's their right and they aren't harming anyone in doing so. People are allowed to indulge in their media however they want. And to dictate otherwise is not only a dick move, it's also really stupid.

The same audience that sent Satou Ryuuga (Keiwa's actor) death threats since he "betrayed" them by turning evil, which is similar to what happened to Neon when they found out she was an artificial human. Some of these fanatics really have that little self-awareness and will cross that line, so I can't call the show pretentious when the message is immediately proven right. I think we, the audience, need to take an L and accept that we're not perfect good human beings all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

It's massively hypocritical in its presentation too, because you have characters constantly talking about how all audiences care about is dramatic suffering, while in turn expecting you to care about the very character drama they themselves implement. Combine that with the same sorts of lines being repeated over and over again for like 20 episodes and the line towards the end of "Oh lots of people like happy endings too!" rings incredibly hallow.

The hypocrisy is kind of the point though, like how Michinaga freely admits he's exactly the same as the people he hates, yet he still does what he believes is necessary for the common good. Remember that the target demographic are kids, who generally don't have the same level of critical thinking as us adults, so Michinaga spelling it out for them while contesting Keiwa's halfhearted and increasingly deranged ideals may encourage them to consider more deeply the meaning of justice.

Honestly, I don't think Geats' final arc was cleanly executed either, but I'm also not going to waste energy on being offended by the show's criticism of me as one of the audience, since I already know I'm flawed. I always watch these shows with a critical mind, so I'd be a hypocrite and a narcissist if I didn't at least allow them to return the favor. When I think of pretentious and offensive, I'll think of Revice way before I think of Geats.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwami

The Desire Grand Prix isn't a drama show though, it?s a game show. The participants are real. Hence their fans and supporters, or rather the bad seeds among them, are our worlds idol supporters and pop-star worshippers. Not j-drama fans.

What we watch is fake drama, we know and enjoy that. These people want real drama; they want to see real people suffer. That?s the stuff Geats criticizes, how people forget that participants in public events or performances are real people too. How they are pushed into extreme situations over and over again like playthings to eventually break for entertainment purposes.

At least that?s how I understood it. Being a Kamen Rider in their universe just means idol in ours. Feeling aggravated as a Kamen Rider fan about that feels to me like you?re missing the point. You're getting irritated by the analogy itself rather then what it points at.

But all of this is also not true. Idols, bloggers, even reality TV contestants are also roles that have little in common with their real personalities. Scripts are written for them, their public relationships are fake for the sake of hype. The only difference between celebrity life and a soap opera is the poorer acting. And you can believe in its reality only by deliberately engaging in self-deception.
Plus, the cases where a celebrity is actually harassed by fans is a tiny percentage. The main role in their misfortunes is played by producers and labels with their slave contracts. And this part really turned out to be very crumpled, because even the main villain is so incomprehensible that it is very difficult to hate him seriously. And considering that Geats was created by people who are part of this industry, it is clearly a matter of shifting responsibility.
That is, the real world is not “The Squid Game”. There is no need to pretend that the audience and the organizers of the show are the same people. Also, it`s not like the problematic aspects of fandom are really revealed. Where is the persecution, where is the cancellation, where is the shipping in the end? Almost every other media that raised this topic did so much more boldly and brazenly. Besides, I?m not sure that the person who forced Guy Amatsu to apologize so much and talk about Akari and Neon six times in two episodes is so strong in implicit subtext.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

The same audience that sent Satou Ryuuga (Keiwa's actor) death threats since he "betrayed" them by turning evil, which is similar to what happened to Neon when they found out she was an artificial human.

Toxic fanaticism is a very old thing, and although the Internet has made it louder, it is hardly more dangerous. This hardly affected Sato Ryuga?s career: after Geats, he already managed to play in two shows, and he also has a singing career. Plus, if we accept that the message about the toxicity of the audience in Geats is the main one (although I?m sure it wasn?t even in the original script), then we can turn on the conspiracy theorist and assume that the hate posts are fake, written incognito by Toei employees.
But, taking this opportunity, I would like to slightly justify the fictional viewers who hated Neon. They, as fans, had reasons to be offended. Let's just follow Neon's entire journey up to this point and treat her journey like that of a reality show participant.
Her first time in the spotlight is during a zombie game. The player who is recognized as the weakest and has been bitten, thanks to his perseverance, wins and moves on.
Viewers love such stories and only inveterate cynics will lament their unreality.
Next, in a card game, she finds herself paired with the best player, Ace. For now, this is perceived as just luck, but let?s make a note for memory.
As a result, Neon makes it to the finals, but does not become the champion. In principle, the audience should have no complaints about her performance in her first DGP. But not to further ones.
Already in the second DGP it is introduced into the game later and immediately with a powerful buckle. She doesn't even have to run after Beat to some point on the map, Neon gets the buckle even before entering the game. We, as viewers of Kamen Rider Geats, know the reasons, but how should it be perceived by viewers of DGP.
Here I will pause to repeat again: reality TV is staged and this is common knowledge. These shows have scripts and cast actors. The ?Survivor? contestants, who eat cockroaches on camera out of hunger after they shut down, sit down to dinner instead with the film crew. The audience knows this and is willing to turn a blind eye to such things until injustice occurs. It seems that the sent actor receives immunity and someone else is kicked out instead. So after her effective appearance, Neon should have been perceived by the audience as a DPP employee, like Win. But still she was not hated.
Now let's move on to DezaStar. Not only does Neon turn out to be the same DezaStar, but the participant who finds out about this voluntarily sacrifices herself for her. The audience apparently became completely convinced that DGP was deliberately pushing her towards victory. But, nevertheless, there is no hate yet.
And here is the revelation of Beroba. Not only does this confirm Neon's connection to the DGP, but it also reveals her artificial origins.Moreover, she is conceived as ?her father?s ideal daughter.? And this is an extremely vague idea. What if, in his eyes, the ideal daughter is the winner of the DGP? That's why they give vent to their anger. Because, for them, other participants have no chance at all compared to Neon. And this deprives the reality show of its main trump card - competition.As I wrote above, the audience of such projects is ready to deal with injustice, but only as long as there remains an element of unpredictability in the project. And when the winner is known from the beginning, that?s when it starts to boil.
Well, considering that things didn?t go beyond one scene with offensive comments, the anger of ordinary fans is not something serious even in the distorting mirror of Geats? world. As well as the anger of the VIPs, which was shown in the show itself.

[DreamSword]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Having said that, I think a show that rebukes its viewers can work. At least in books I saw how this technique works. But this requires a certain level of skill and at the same time frivolity, which is not observed in Geats.

I'm sure that it's not an impossible angle to work, but I myself have not experienced a story that pulls it off well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenXtreme

I know a lot of people think Revice is worse, but at least that show had some novel ideas and some enjoyable moments, so it wins by miles for me.

Even if I had ended up not liking Revice in the end(I'm it's like, one fan, apparently), I'd give the win to Revice over Geats solely because atleast in Revice I was actually interested in where it was going and what it was trying to do. And that's not even getting into how much I liked most of the cast.

Like, sure, I'm the (in)famous Decade hater, but atleast that show had a character I genuinely liked in Diend. I cannot say the same for Geats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwami

Feeling aggravated as a Kamen Rider fan about that feels to me like you?re missing the point. You're getting irritated by the analogy itself rather then what it points at.

Even if it's "the point" that doesn't mean it makes a solid case for it nor does it justify wagging your finger at your audience constantly.

And yes, intentional or not, the show IS condescending to the very people watching it. Various scenes of characters in universe watching the exact same scenes we are, and constant dialogue like this:



Make it very clear that the show is talking about us, the actual real life viewers of Kamen Rider Geats itself.

Also, if you wanna get technical, the Desire Grand Prix is a reality TV show in-universe(Arc 2 being the most blatant about it). Not that it changes anything other than make me roll my eyes even harder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

so I can't call the show pretentious when the message is immediately proven right. I think we, the audience, need to take an L and accept that we're not perfect good human beings all the time.

Except that no, we don't. The innocent should never be held responsible for the actions of the guilty. Are there fans who send death threats and the like? Yes. But that doesn't mean that you or I or the vast majority of viewers do and as such we should not be held in contempt.

It'd be different if the show had a balanced viewpoint from the start or if it made it clear that it was talking about a vocal minority or people who were terminally online specifically, but it doesn't. It takes until the last few episodes before we get even one single line about "Oh, not everyone watches TV for suffering!" which after a year's' worth of TV comes across less like a counterpoint and more like an attempt at getting out of jail free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Honestly, I don't think Geats' final arc was cleanly executed either, but I'm also not going to waste energy on being offended by the show's criticism of me as one of the audience, since I already know I'm flawed. I always watch these shows with a critical mind, so I'd be a hypocrite and a narcissist if I didn't at least allow them to return the favor.

There's a difference between critiquing a story and critiquing a person. Very different beasts.

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Toxic fanaticism is a very old thing, and although the Internet has made it louder, it is hardly more dangerous. This hardly affected Sato Ryuga?s career: after Geats, he already managed to play in two shows, and he also has a singing career. Plus, if we accept that the message about the toxicity of the audience in Geats is the main one (although I?m sure it wasn?t even in the original script), then we can turn on the conspiracy theorist and assume that the hate posts are fake, written incognito by Toei employees.

Unfortunately, it can be detrimental to mental health though. I'm glad that Satou's career is thriving, but there are also those who lack self-worth, like Neon, for whom the toxic words of angry haters can cause harm and suffering. Even though she doesn't fall off the edge like Keiwa after Sara's death, we can only see the side that she wants to project. The tragic death of JDF 2 years ago is a memorable example of someone who always appears invincible to his fans while actually falling apart on the inside.

For sure, it would be an impressive yet disturbing commitment to the meta if Toei or even Satou's agency had actually faked some of those death threats as a publicity stunt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

What if, in his eyes, the ideal daughter is the winner of the DGP? That's why they give vent to their anger. Because, for them, other participants have no chance at all compared to Neon. And this deprives the reality show of its main trump card - competition.As I wrote above, the audience of such projects is ready to deal with injustice, but only as long as there remains an element of unpredictability in the project. And when the winner is known from the beginning, that?s when it starts to boil.

While it's true that a contestant who always has an unfair advantage will eventually become boring, shouldn't this also apply to Ace? The Divergence arc gives us the reality show setting where we can gauge how the audience feel about the characters, showing how Ace's and Neon's celebrity status holds no weight to the future people, but they're still cool enough to easily beat Keiwa in approval ratings. The results seem like they're supposed to reflect the general consensus of the real life audience in this way, since Tycoon is often seen as a joke for having his Core ID limited to a campaign.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Except that no, we don't. The innocent should never be held responsible for the actions of the guilty. Are there fans who send death threats and the like? Yes. But that doesn't mean that you or I or the vast majority of viewers do and as such we should not be held in contempt.

Sure, but drawing attention to those toxic minorities could be a good way to encourage fans in general to think carefully about individual feelings before saying something that might cause harm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

There's a difference between critiquing a story and critiquing a person. Very different beasts.

I welcome both beasts, as long as the criticism is constructive.

[Kiwami]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Various scenes of characters in universe watching the exact same scenes we are, and constant dialogue like this:

Make it very clear that the show is talking about us, the actual real life viewers of Kamen Rider Geats itself.

What they watch isn't a Kamen Rider show though. It's a completely different instance if they watch the scenes in-universe or if we do because for them it's real, for us it’s not.

For us its scripted actors doing acting, for them it’s real people fighting for their life. The context is what matters.

I guess I can see how one could come to this concussion, but I don’t think that was the point the show tried to make. Yes you’re watching a show that tells you an audience watching the same thing you do is despicable. But you are not that exact audience because you don’t exist in that universe.

You can and should take lessons from it regardless but you don't need to feel offended.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

While it's true that a contestant who always has an unfair advantage will eventually become boring, shouldn't this also apply to Ace? The Divergence arc gives us the reality show setting where we can gauge how the audience feel about the characters, showing how Ace's and Neon's celebrity status holds no weight to the future people, but they're still cool enough to easily beat Keiwa in approval ratings. The results seem like they're supposed to reflect the general consensus of the real life audience in this way, since Tycoon is often seen as a joke for having his Core ID limited to a campaign.

In Ace's case, I understood that his ability to remember his past lives remained a secret of the DGP staff and was not communicated to the general audience. It just seems to me that the indignation over Neon's real or imaginary advantage is more understandable than the fact that artificial people of the future hate another artificial person. Then again, Kyuun promised her a happy life in the future, which means the negativity is connected specifically with Neon's participation in the DGP.
As for the attitude towards Keiwa, I think it reflects the attitude of real viewers towards him. That is why these letters make me suspicious: Keiwa was accused of being boring from the very beginning. And that is why his transformation into a villain disappointed so many, because he remained just as boring, but at the same time lost his only positive quality.

[DreamSword]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwami

What they watch isn't a Kamen Rider show though.

The DGP is literally about the Kamen Riders. It is a Kamen Rider show.

Quote:

The context is what matters.

Here's the thing: You are correct. Context does matter.

And one big part of the context that you seem to be omitting is that Geats' narrative very heavily leans on meta commentary, especially in its later stages.

It's not just in terms of the audience either, but also the various talks about the proper way to handle a TV show(such as the first Game Master's' "boringly straight-forward" show getting replaced by the Among Us stuff), the roles Producers take in these sorts of things, etc.

To ignore that aspect is to ignore a major part of the show, and I frankly see no reason to make any exception to the audience aspect, especially when we get scenes like in the summer movie where Ziin literally looks at the screen and talks to us, the audience watching. And if you wanna argue "oh well that's the summer movie" do note that it was also written by Takahashi and follows many of the things set up in the TV show proper.

If you're able to look past it, that's fine. Great, even, because it allows you to have your own fun with the show despite Geats itself trying to dictate a "proper" way of doing it.

But to claim that there's no basis for it or to think that the show is trying to 100% literal? I dunno, that just does not seem at all likely to me, and it's an aspect that I frankly just got tired of as the same sorts of lines kept getting repeated over and over again over like 30 episodes.

I'm not here to say no one should like the show. I'm just explaining the reasoning for why I don't.

[Mesnick]

Rewatched Super Hero Taisen Z, now in voice acting. Well, it was very nice to return to this film. In my opinion, this is the best of the Taisens, even if it is not particularly difficult to earn this title. Diverse, impressive and beautiful action, good interaction of characters, competently mixed lore and even if Sentai play supporting roles in this crossover Yoko and Gai, this is fully compensated. Of course, the film is by no means perfect.Its very premise ignores the existence of the MagiRangers. Many of the fights are simply forced. Most of the heroes and almost all of the villains are little more than familiar costumes for a bigger fight. Adding the Space Siblings and a future Inazuman to an already convoluted story about the Wizard, the Gobusters, and the updated Space Sheriffs unnecessarily overloads an already huge cast of characters. The fact that Haruto, who was the center of attention, along with Geki (who is the new Gavan), disappears after the first act, only to return for the final battle played by a stand-in, also does not help the perception of this story too much. However, all these shortcomings are nitpicks that I did not pay attention to, enjoying watching. Many familiar and not yet familiar heroes unite in crazy motley teams in order to defeat the Space Shocker led by Shadow Moon and the evil sorcerer Raider - this is something I would happily watch for three hours straight. In any case, this is clearly a better way to conduct a crossover than by pitting the heroes against each other or organizing a competition between them. So this is one of those films that I will gladly rewatch in a couple of years, when I get to know a few more of its participants better. And now I will continue watching the films translated by Wizard in the Magic Land.