[Sh Ranger]

Yay, Super Hero Time is ba- oh wait, there's no Gozyuger next week. For now, we'll just have to count on Zeztz to continue the mission!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

I love how the Healing Forms' weapon is a big axe that would make Kintaros proud.

The axe is so big, it will make you CRY!

I guess now would be an appropriate time to mention my opinion of Espirim's design. Personally, I think it's redundant to give a green form to a green Rider, like, it could at least have used a different accent color to make it look less monotonous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

Oh, I'd say Kensei Odakka is involved in Black Cases...he's frikkin' Nox!

And I don't even need to check the kanji to know that the "daka" part of Odaka means hawk, which completes our lucky dream trio with Fujimi and Nasuka.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

Nox stole a Capsem! They even blacked it out in the next episode preview! Baku literally just got it!

Fortunately, the preview shows Zeztz using Espirim Barrier. Convenient how he can still use subforms even without having access to the default version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

You already won me over with sword and gun modes, adding an axe is just icing on top at this point.

And you'll be getting a cherry on top of that icing very soon!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Not to mention, pretty much every episode so far has been almost entirely from Baku's' perspective(or his supporting cast), and their jobs aren't to get into the little nitty-gritty of these people's' lives; Simply to stop the situation at hand. As such, us as the viewer aren't going to get any super deep insight into how the chefs all talk to eachother outside of the relevant scenes or the fully details of the conversation between the newlyweds in the Crow two-parter, for example. The value is not in knowing every single little progression point of these people's' lives, but rather knowing that things have been made better, even just a little bit, thanks to the work of Zeztz and his crew.

True that the main and side characters are always going to get more focus and development than guest characters, but I can also kind of understand Fish's problem here. It's much easier to invest emotionally in the stakes when they're happening to characters we care about, so I prefer it when those guest characters actually present like characters, rather than merely expendable plot devices. Baku cares about these people, so we should feel inclined to care as well, right? The lack of resolution with the chefs does make their conflict seem open-ended in an unsatisfying way.

I think the best thing the show can do is bring back some of these characters later, like Fourze and Gotchard. Like, show us how their lives have improved in a few months after Zeztz secretly helped them out. Maybe Miyuki finally goes abroad, the apprentice chefs push Shirogane Royale to even greater prestige, etc. I don't mind not seeing that stuff now, since realistically things don't change that quickly anyway, but it would be nice to get more closure later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

I dunno man, "All he did was stop the situation from getting worse" seems like a really jaded take to me. Like, yeah. He prevented a bunch of people from dying to food poisoning as well as keeping a business(and those who work for it) from going under. I'm not seeing how there isn't a value of heroism to that.

Agreed. Even though we can't see Zeztz saving lives and happiness, that doesn't mean it isn't happening. He's just as heroic as any average Primary Rider. Reminds me of the Oni's battles against the Makamou, which mostly happens away from public eye.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

Okay, first of all, that sauce looks disgusting.

So I wasn't the only one thinking that! Stuff honestly already looks like poison before the Nightmare even gets to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Personally, I think it's redundant to give a green form to a green Rider, like, it could at least have used a different accent color to make it look less monotonous.

I actually like that about the main four forms. Physicam being the only one to get a major secondary color worked in nicely emphasizes it as the most important one (...even if we're already doing episodes without any version of it showing up), and Esprim's green is more of a pure Green than the distinctly bluish Rider #1 hue the base form has as part of that whole homage, so they stay distinct that way too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

I dunno man, "All he did was stop the situation from getting worse" seems like a really jaded take to me. Like, yeah. He prevented a bunch of people from dying to food poisoning as well as keeping a business(and those who work for it) from going under. I'm not seeing how there isn't a value of heroism to that.

You're completely right about that sounding jaded, and I think you know me well enough by now to know from there that the point I was making there is something else entirely, even if I'm apparently not expressing it properly. I never said that Baku stopping a monster and saving the day isn't heroic. My issue is more complex than that.

The part of it that's probably making me sound more harsh than I intend is that -- as I've gone on about many, many times on this site -- I do personally want for there to be heroism going on outside of the fighting, because that's something that I deeply respect about Kamen Rider as a franchise, and something I consider nearly ubiquitous across just about every show since Kuuga came along. These are generally shows that place a notable emphasis on stuff like having empathy for others and things of that sort -- forms of heroism that the average viewer will actually have chances to apply to their own real lives, as opposed to just the spectacular feats that thrill them because of how fantastical they are.

But that's admittedly wrapped up in my own philosphy of the importance of stories of this sort for children and all that more abstract stuff, which is why the word "inherently" is extremely important when I say it's also "less inherently gratifying" to watch a story that only has one of those two layers. I mostly just want there to be a second layer! I understand completely that it doesn't fit the show for Baku to run around playing therapist or anything that extreme, and I'm not trying to ask for that. But while it's not at all the *only* way to get there, a bit of emphasis on the protagonist helping out people on a more personal level is a very *reliable* way to end up with a richer, more cohesive story for an episode (pair), which I think is another big reason Rider tends to have plots of that sort so often. When all the characters matter to each other that directly, the different plotlines naturally tie together tighter, and you get more chances to have those relationships result in change for somebody involved, whether it's the main characters for the sake of the overaching plot, or the guest characters to give that smaller arc a satisfying sense of progression.

The cohesion is what I'm struggling to see in this show so far, more than anything. If the plots were presented on a less personal level to begin with -- the city being the thing in danger, for example -- I could buy that I'm simply missing the point, but if the emotions and struggles of the guest characters aren't supposed to be as central a focus as anything else, it strikes me as odd to make the basic formula of the show about a hero who runs around in the subconscious minds of individuals, for the express purpose of saving those specific individuals. One of the things about this show's stories I really enjoy is actually how in every single plot so far, there's a turning point where Baku has to stop and consider the Dreamer from a new perspective to get to the bottom of the current case, and aspects like that definitely feel like they're screaming out to be leveraged for drama even further.

I think that's why my posts on Zeztz keep coming out so negative, too. I'm only trying to quickly get across my general opinion, and when I try and consider the episodes as wholes, that's just sort of the result. There's lots of moment-to-moment stuff I liked quite a bit in here, like Nem saving Seven at the start, and Nasuka's little character arc was nice, but they're just that little bit too detached from any grander point to be the things I'm going to mention right away.

[DreamSword]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Baku cares about these people, so we should feel inclined to care as well, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

These are generally shows that place a notable emphasis on stuff like having empathy for others and things of that sort -- forms of heroism that the average viewer will actually have chances to apply to their own real lives, as opposed to just the spectacular feats that thrill them because of how fantastical they are.

Forgive me if I'm totally missing the mark here, but it seems to me that what you guys are asking for is for the show to take more steps towards having the viewer feel empathy for the VOTW, which, sure, but here's my angle.

If we're talking purely the side/weekly characters, I don't think that's the kind of show that Zeztz is aiming to be. I think it moreso expects one to have sympathy for the people involved in the monster plots, rather than the viewer outright putting themselves in the character's' shoes via empathy.

Again, using Baku himself as the viewpoint here, yes, he does care enough about saving the lives of others, but he's also not about to throw himself into the lives of others wholesale. Not unlike say, a firefighter in real life. The only exceptions to this arguably being Nem and Fujimi, of whom he's starting to see as friends and/or allies. A spy typically doesn't stay in one spot for long.

Would it be nice if every single character were super deep and every arc hit me in the feels? Sure, I guess. But again, that doesn't seem to be the goal, and I'd rather try to enjoy a show for what it is than what it isn't. And if the main idea is a slowburn in regards to the arcs of the main cast with some fun superhero antics along the way? Yeah, I have no problem embracing that. If it's not for you, that's fine, I just don't see anything talked about as an inherent failing, per se.

Or maybe I'm the one not tuning into the show properly and everything will flip on me in the coming episodes, who knows?

[Frontier]

I guess it's worth comparing to the patients of the week or the Humagear of the week from Takahashi's last shows.

[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

I guess it's worth comparing to the patients of the week or the Humagear of the week from Takahashi's last shows.

Eh, Kamen Rider has been doing "victim of the fortnight" since Den-O.