[Frontier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Well what is Zeztz driven by, then? And I mean, I'm actually not sure what the answer would be. Are we really sure this show isn't trying to let the characters dictate the story more than the other way around? Something I thought was very strange as I was watching this episode was how quickly it almost totally pivoted away from big the Plot revelations NOX keeps hinting at. I wondered why Baku had no further questions, no scene where he asks Zero about even one little thing... and then I thought, you know, maybe that actually shows how seriously Takahashi was considering Baku's emotions and personality above just feeding more facts about Capsems and Nightmares to viewers? Because there's a pretty solid argument to be made that Baku would actively dodge the subject as much as possible, for a few different reasons, and the episode still puts his whole emotional struggle at the center, mostly waiting until the end to do further shocking twists.

I definitely think it's character driven - in the sense that it's driven by Baku - and the reason he didn't ask Zero about anything NOX said was he was too caught up in being unable to stop him or the damage done to Seiya's dreams. I genuinely don't think he took NOX's words seriously.

I do wonder if the tertiary is going to end up being one of the other Agents who have gone rogue or maybe Code Number 08 who is meant to replace Baku.

[StardustWhip]

- "Thankfully nobody was hurt." I guess I didn't expect that Kamen Rider would delve into the consequences of a dream meteor destroying an entire building like that, but it does make me giggle to hear them explicitly reassuring the kids at home like this. Reminds me of Power Rangers and its Abandoned Warehouse District.

- As expected, there seems to be some tension between Baku and Fujimi over Odaka/Nox. And not resolved by the end of the episode either; I have to wonder if Fujimi will refuse to accept Odaka's ties to the case until he sees his snazzy new (anti-)villain form for himself. Or otherwise sees irrefutable evidence of Odaka's heel turn.

- ...TBH I thought that was a picture of an actual James Bond actor, in the poster on Baku's wall. I had to go back and pause to get a second look and confirm it wasn't.

- At first I thought that the whole revelation of CODE/Capsems being bad was just getting brushed under the rug, but after seeing the consequences of Baku finishing off the giant meteor man monster, that doesn't seem to be the case. At least not entirely.

I wasn't just kidding when I thought that Zero would be immune to twist villainy based on being so closely tied to Zeztz, even serving as his motorcycle. But he's just looking more and more sus, between his lack of concern at Baku's seeming death ("Mission complete. Humanity's extinction was prevented.") and his death threats towards Minami if she snitches on him. And now it seems like, at the very least, the conflict between Zero/CODE and Nox is much more grey than it would've seemed at first.

Right now I'm predicting that CODE will ultimately serve as the main villainous force with Zeztz and Nox teaming up against it, albeit with Zero himself potentially turning to/staying on the side of good. Or if he is evil, then Zeztz and friends will manage to break Zero's connection to the CODE Zeroider.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by StardustWhip

- ...TBH I thought that was a picture of an actual James Bond actor, in the poster on Baku's wall. I had to go back and pause to get a second look and confirm it wasn't.

I'm reminded of Blue Fire, where, while the hero is watching Rocky, they show a re-shot scene with Japanese actors. Apparently, they were being overly cautious because of copyright issues.

[GoldenXtreme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Well what is Zeztz driven by, then? And I mean, I'm actually not sure what the answer would be. Are we really sure this show isn't trying to let the characters dictate the story more than the other way around? Something I thought was very strange as I was watching this episode was how quickly it almost totally pivoted away from big the Plot revelations NOX keeps hinting at. I wondered why Baku had no further questions, no scene where he asks Zero about even one little thing... and then I thought, you know, maybe that actually shows how seriously Takahashi was considering Baku's emotions and personality above just feeding more facts about Capsems and Nightmares to viewers? Because there's a pretty solid argument to be made that Baku would actively dodge the subject as much as possible, for a few different reasons, and the episode still puts his whole emotional struggle at the center, mostly waiting until the end to do further shocking twists.

My own take on what I think Zeztz's story is driven by is its sense of mystery and drama I suppose. Both in the episodic plots and overarching narrative the show is often intentionally trying to obscure things in order to create a sense of confusion and intrigue. In the process, I do feel like the cast are often just reduced to pieces Yuuya Takahashi is manuering around so that things can be more and more dramatic and to bring up further questions. Why do characters not ask questions sooner? Mystery. Why did Zero insist on the secret identity thing? Drama. The characters are just there to fuel the mystery in my eyes, they aren't fleshed out much as people beyond some very basic stuff about their motivations so far. This isn't a terrible approach, but man, you better be giving me some DAMN good mystery and drama if you are doing this. I do think my sense of exasperation at having to deal with the same writer every third show for so long is showing, but for as much as I think Takahashi can do some really good character drama I also think he has a tendency to get overly invested in his own twists at the expense of the progression feeling natural.

Mulled this over for a while before posting, I hope it makes some amount of sense. If Zeztz is accomplishing one thing consistently, it is getting confused and disparate reactions out of viewers.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenXtreme

Mulled this over for a while before posting, I hope it makes some amount of sense.

That was actually very succinct and well-reasoned, I think!

I'd probably agree with the broader point of mystery and intrigue being the focus. Even though I opened up the argument in the first place, we just had the very decidedly character-focused drama of Gavv last year, where the plot was generally kept very straightforward and clear specifically to allow space to portray the cast as intimately as possible, so just by looking at that show, you can tell this one is going for something very different.

Though I'm not sure how I'd rate Zeztz as a mystery story. This goes back to what I've said about stuff like the need to "flag" bits as important, but I often get the feeling it keeps its mysteries intact not by obscuring them, but by outright refusing to give the viewer any information at all, which I find makes it less fun to engage with? With the former, the viewer is challenged to pick through various clues and facts and foreshadowing to identify through deductive reasoning what bits are misdirection and what truth the other bits are pointing to. With the latter, the speculation can very quickly become aimless because there's not much to base it around beyond "wouldn't it be neat if ____".

But then, the latter being so much less concrete also makes it a better fit if you're actively trying to create some sort of disorienting dream story, so it's another thing with Zeztz where I have this instinctive objection to it, and yet I can also see this side to it where it needs to be how it is to properly be Zeztz.

And as far as properly flagging moments as important goes, I do want to push back on the idea of it being arbitrary that characters aren't asking more questions, at least in the specific case of Baku. This episode has that bit at the start where right after he brushes off the revelation about Capsems to focus on his mission, NOX accuses him of sleepwalking through life. So while I suggested this baselessly last week:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Maybe Baku going along with so much weirdness without questioning most of it is some galaxy-brain thematic thing where it's like someone in a dream doing much the same, for example.

...all of sudden, there's a firm case for that reading, and it makes me no longer question that part of the plot as much. Like I said, there are several reasons here I don't think Baku bothers following up on anything NOX said, but personally, I feel the biggest one -- and the one that's been true the whole time -- is that he just can't help but surrender to the fantasy? Whether it turns out he's literally asleep the whole time or some grand twist like that, I think at the very least he sorta subconsciously knows he might not like the answers he gets.

[GoldenXtreme]

Yeah I think that the fact it is so hard to tell what is part of the "disorienting dream story" and what is just a genuine storytelling issue is part of what makes Zeztz so hard to get invested in. Like, I mentioned in a prior thread about the possibility of what we are told is the "real world" is actually also the dream world, which is why weird stuff sometimes happens there. But I'm not sure it really excuses the fact they have been telling a story where things that don't always make much sense happen and we as viewers are expected to go with it for so long? It makes me think about when someone is explaining their dream haphazardly after waking up, not realizing that it isn't all that interesting if they werent the one dreaming! If they don't go for a twist like that, we are instead left with a bunch of scenes that end without any followup! I'll conceded the point about Baku, I think it's fair to say he just doesn't want to learn any inconvenient truths, but there are so many parts to the show that just feel trapped between telling a coherent tale and secretive dream stuff and we end up with something that feels weak at both because it's so hard to tell what it is ever trying to do in a given moment.

[Frontier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenXtreme

My own take on what I think Zeztz's story is driven by is its sense of mystery and drama I suppose. Both in the episodic plots and overarching narrative the show is often intentionally trying to obscure things in order to create a sense of confusion and intrigue. In the process, I do feel like the cast are often just reduced to pieces Yuuya Takahashi is manuering around so that things can be more and more dramatic and to bring up further questions. Why do characters not ask questions sooner? Mystery. Why did Zero insist on the secret identity thing? Drama. The characters are just there to fuel the mystery in my eyes, they aren't fleshed out much as people beyond some very basic stuff about their motivations so far. This isn't a terrible approach, but man, you better be giving me some DAMN good mystery and drama if you are doing this. I do think my sense of exasperation at having to deal with the same writer every third show for so long is showing, but for as much as I think Takahashi can do some really good character drama I also think he has a tendency to get overly invested in his own twists at the expense of the progression feeling natural.

Mulled this over for a while before posting, I hope it makes some amount of sense. If Zeztz is accomplishing one thing consistently, it is getting confused and disparate reactions out of viewers.

I think the show is ultimately driven by Baku and how he reacts to everything and works through the plot, even if he isn't always consciously looking deeper into the plot until it gets thrown into his face.

[ThirstMcGurst]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

He should have expanded his genre knowledge with something like Jonas Bourne and Mission Unfeasible.
Also: I'm surprised that many took Zero's words, "I thought you were like this in your dreams," as his disappointment in Baku. I took them as a reminder, along the lines of, "It's a dream, you don't need to train."

And I can see that as well, but something about it feels....demeaning?

Like, Baku is just a normal dude with weird things happening to him anytime he tries to help people, which I can assume is entirely just odd luck (not counting the yellow hummer incident) or someone is actively messing with him. And he's a great agent in the dream realm, but I feel that Zero chose him as their agent specifically of his lucid dreaming abilities and his willingness to help others, all great attributes.

And I also believe Zero chose him because he wouldn't ask questions and just go along with the adventures. Nox knew who Zero was and what the organization is about, and he was a trained policeman/ detective. Nox/ Odaka would of course question everything and figure stuff out. It's probably why Zero is hiding from Nasuka and Fujima, as well as threaten Minami if she says anything.

Then again, I'm probably attaching way too much emotional feelings to this. lol