[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER FOURZE EPISODE 38 - “AND THE WINNER IS…”

Like, I admire an episode that wants to position Yuuki’s role in a group as the one who never quits, the one who has the personal resolve to overcome any hardship, and the brightness of spirit to rally everyone around her to tackle the impossible together. I completely agree with that! I’m pretty sure I mentioned it in the write-up for last episode! But we’re also in an episode that can’t stop comedically depicting Yuuki as a psychologically-drained anchor, who loudly and repeatedly exclaims her inability to proceed in the contest, needing to literally be dragged along by her more able teammate. This is kind of attacking your core premise, Episode 38! You are not exactly fortifying anyone’s sunny appraisal of Yuuki’s theoretically indefatigable inner strength! You can do an episode where a hapless Yuuki is a wacky problem for the rest of the cast to smile and shake their head at, and you can do an episode where an underestimated Yuuki consistently summons her (alleged) natural charisma and sense of personal pride to push through the walls that would stop any sane person, but you sort of can’t do both in the same episode, often in alternating scenes.

About what the camera is hidden, this is about a newer show, where I watched this older one more recently, but it reminds me of Neon's DezaStar stint in Geats. About a female competitor being instructed to sabotage, and both cases involve cards even (I really wanted if Geats gave more about complete list of cards Neon got). The series already have Gentaro insisted that Yuki would never do it on purpose, but Neon also is unwilling to really hurt or sabotage the other participants, doing bare minimum of the tasks and is shown hesitating, with DGP upping the ante of the consequences later. Otherwise, though Yuki didn't know at first that Erin injured her, Yuki still knows that Erin was hostile to her and tried to bring her down when she's promoted, but Yuki still tries to get Erin to just leave her and win the race.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

And if that were the only problem, fine, whatever, I got other stuff in here to enjoy. Erin and Gentarou continued to be a charming couple, exhibiting enough chemistry to fuel an actual rocket. Erin’s arc in this one is a compelling exploration of how finding the best in someone can still not get you what you want, and Erin’s character-defining dedication and commitment gets a melancholy finale, pitting her allegiance to Gamou against her newfound supporter in a rain-soaked duel. It’s sad, and inevitable, and avoidable, and sweet, and beautifully shot. It’s Erin’s whole arc, concluding perfectly, after two episodes of growth and examination.

Their final duel rather reminds me of W vs Makoto/Jewel Dopant before, where despite the MOTW's apparent invincibility (Jewel's toughness and Aquarius' regen), they're given weakpoints that instantly defeats them after it got hit. W still uses his Prism Break finisher to do that, but Fourze simply uses Claw for more hitboxes to hit both shoulders at once. No new combination, just simple Claw, albeit it seems that Claw has advantage for being used with Barizun Sword than in base form of being big. Erin directly thanked Gentaro for defeating her as a Zodiart onscreen, where Tamae and Ritsuko was only later stated as being grateful for that to initially ask Gentaro for prom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

So, you know, OF COURSE they wipe her memory, making sure that we end this story with an Erin who doesn’t remember Yuuki and Gentarou, and presumably doesn’t remember her cathartic confrontation over her traumatic resentment of her father’s deferred dream, so she’s just bubbly and friendly, and fine with two random strangers saying they’re her friends who are going to support her no matter what. It feels pointless, relative to how hard Erin had to work to earn her defeat. It’s like some other character is the beneficiary of Erin’s personal growth, and it all feels kind of dumb; unworthy of the effort of most of the actors in this episode.

Yeah, this is rather like Ryuki or perhaps also Build ending, but applied on only one person. Erased memories, means erased development for the character (like for Erin to not jump over conclusions in why the camera was hidden). I can accept this for something like Ryuki as it's about the world being made better without war (and it's Shinji's achievement), though yeah the development for people like Kitaoka would be canceled, but it does feel rushed to have Erin instantly being besties with Gentaro and Yuki at the end unlike this 2-parter process. It should be inevitable that the villains would displease us, not only for killing off characters, but also erasing Erin's memory, but perhaps the outcome should be like Nadeshiko in Megamax where she just walks past Gentaro and the other KRC where this can seem to be forced happy ending. Albeit, for part of being fine with two strangers saying they're her friends part, it rather have happened to me too, dunno if this counts as stranger, but a beautiful co-worker in different division that I never interact before, having her consistently greeting me when I come pass, despite me never interacting with her that time. When I later asked why (first time I directly interact, btw), she said it's because we're friends and she claims she wants to befriend anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

And then, and then, even if you disregard how Erin’s story collapses at the end, or how Yuuki’s story tells us one thing while showing us another, there’s just way too many narrative shortcuts and counterintuitive reveals, even for a toku franchise that is normally too fun to care about said details: Why are half the KRC invited along for the final test alongside three of the judges? Wouldn’t it be considered cheating for Gentarou and Ryuusei to turn up with four competitors? Isn’t a test where you tell two competitors to sabotage their teams’ efforts in secret not really about how to overcome unexpected problems on a space mission, and more about how to deal with sabotage from your crewmates? Did none of these kids bring an umbrella to the rain-soaked duel? (The last one… it was just a snowstorm! Don’t make these kids stand around soaked for hours in the cold! That’s how you get sick!)

Guess Ryusei, despite well, being forgiven after murdering Gentaro (proving that Gentaro's method worked on him), or well, he himself choosing to trust Aries to cure Jiro, can still think Gentaro was naive for trying to help a Zodiart. Though obviously, as Ryusei already fully developed since ep. 32, he can easily accept that Gentaro can tame Erin at the end of the episode, where secondary Riders who are still assholes may dismiss the main protagonist's achievements. And for cheating part, Gentaro screams at his friends to stay back during his duel with Erin anyway. Dunno if it's the KRC being invited for the final test, I feel it's just Gentaro or Ryusei following them up to fight off Zodiarts. The test was all just Zodiart plan anyway to find suitable Horoscopes.

[Switchblade]

I just wanted to point out that I love how you can tell we're all watching different subs because we're all calling this girl by a different name.

[Androzani84]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

I just wanted to point out that I love how you can tell we're all watching different subs because we're all calling this girl by a different name.

I know one group went with Erin because “Suda Erin” is an anagram of “Eridanus”, a river related to Aquarius.

[Sunred]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

I know one group went with Erin because ?Suda Erin? is an anagram of ?Eridanus?, a river related to Aquarius.

Ohh, if so, nice. Nice wordplay.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Guess Ryusei, despite well, being forgiven after murdering Gentaro (proving that Gentaro's method worked on him), or well, he himself choosing to trust Aries to cure Jiro, can still think Gentaro was naive for trying to help a Zodiart. Though obviously, as Ryusei already fully developed since ep. 32, he can easily accept that Gentaro can tame Erin at the end of the episode, where secondary Riders who are still assholes may dismiss the main protagonist's achievements.

Yeah, I think this is just a classic Kamen Rider situation where one Rider's natural inclination to distrust the motivations of an enemy is overruled by their trust in the main Rider. Ryuusei's growth isn't in trusting Zodiarts, it's in trusting that Gentarou knows what he's doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

I just wanted to point out that I love how you can tell we're all watching different subs because we're all calling this girl by a different name.

It's a tribute to Erin's difficulty nailing Japanese pronunciation!

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER FOURZE EPISODE 37 - ?SELECTING THE STAR PUPIL?

The other problem is, uh, Yuuki. I know I just said that Yuuki isn?t annoying enough to warrant Erin?s immediate and blazing enmity, but Yuuki is still pretty annoying this episode. I think she acquits herself well enough over the various tasks, and Kengo?s right that Yuuki has a great sense of when to lighten a mood (always, around Kengo, which is why she?s so good at it), but she?s rolling around during a presentation and screaming fealty to a rocket. Again, I get that she?s also under pressure here to realize her dream, but the stakes pale in comparison to how wacky Yuuki gets in this episode.

The sad thing is that I think Elleen was sincerely offering Yuki helpful advice at first, but Yuki responded with even more ROCKET GOD which could easily be taken as dismissal. This does seem like an example of Yuki being rude, not only deranged. It's a plot that only works due to Yuki acting like this and hiding the camera parts for a reason she cannot explain. Gentarou and the audience know that Yuki isn't a bad person, but Yuki sure gives Elleen a lot of reasons to think poorly of her, all snowballing from that first impression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

And, y?know, there?s also the rest of the cast who? are present! It?s not a story for them, sadly, so we get yet another episode that JK, Shun, and Miu can?t directly participate in; Tomoko is dragged along, without really having much cause to be there; Ohsugi gets a single scene, barely; Kengo?s Cosmic Illness pops up again, after, like 20 episodes of not mentioning it; and the Zodiarts continue to collectively make Hayami feel like garbage.

I don't mind Tomoko participating in the space cadet training while being irrelevant to the plot, since I thought that worked okay for the Hound Zodiart arc. Shun, Miu and JK really are just there in Rabbit Hatch though.

Congrats on your 7000th post!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER FOURZE EPISODE 38 - ?AND THE WINNER IS??

And if that were the only problem, fine, whatever, I got other stuff in here to enjoy. Erin and Gentarou continued to be a charming couple, exhibiting enough chemistry to fuel an actual rocket. Erin?s arc in this one is a compelling exploration of how finding the best in someone can still not get you what you want, and Erin?s character-defining dedication and commitment gets a melancholy finale, pitting her allegiance to Gamou against her newfound supporter in a rain-soaked duel. It?s sad, and inevitable, and avoidable, and sweet, and beautifully shot. It?s Erin?s whole arc, concluding perfectly, after two episodes of growth and examination.

Gentarou is a true friend for honoring Elleen's wish to settle her fight with Fourze, even though he knew it would be a heartbreaking conclusion. He always cares about people's feelings, even when they're misguided and I think this is a rare bittersweet yet important message for the show that sometimes the help your friends want isn't the help you want to give. As Fish pointed out, Cosmic States has the tears that Fourze's previous States don't, so this is pretty appropriate to show that Gentarou has moments of suffering like other Riders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It is! There's a thing I loved from 38 that I didn't find a place to talk about before, and so I'm going to just toss it in here.

Erin is fuming about Yuuki as she walks along That One Kamen Rider Pedestrian Trail, and she gets so furious that she turns into Aquarius and goes on a rampage. She starts attacking innocent people, including this one guy on his phone, and it cracked me up:



If I was still doing fan-fic like on the Saber thread, y'all would've gotten a few pages about that dude's day...

What was that dude even looking at on his phone to be so distracted?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I feel I don't want if any of the main characters would just be given victim position of the story which can be easier to view them as innocent and only blame the society around them, even if their action would be like what JK did, particularly if it's done early on. If one is seen as completely innocent, then Gentaro befriending those is viewed as something ordinary and expected. Of which, the JK backstory here does have victim position unlike the introductory part, of him being laughed upon here for trying to reach his dream.

I wouldn't say JK is a victim here though, as the mockery he received did help him realize early that he lacked the talent for his dream and led to him finding small success as Gene in a "so bad it's good" kind of way, just not how he had envisioned like his father. His motivation is sympathetic at best and his decision to sacrifice his captive fans' and friends' health for hollow fame is rightfully called out as wrong and something that a KRC member without Switch influence should know better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I see this as a weakness, of which it may include me though I don't know. Like how many things would be viewed as better if they're more all-rounder, someone would be better in socializing or making friends if they're more versatile, as in, being able to make friends without being limited to those having common hobby. And I know there were two school friends who's really into Kamen Rider, and their main group circle is the type who mainly talk about politics (what they claim they do).

Yeah, an extreme aversion to boredom is surely a weakness in many situations. If a tedious topic drags for too long, I start looking for tangents, which depends on how fast I can react. I also get irritable if my environment is too quiet or still.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I don't completely understand what you're saying here, so forgive me if I got it wrong (I also might not have made my points clearly!), but I wasn't trying to say that JK was bad if he'd really wanted to leave the KRC to be a musician -- I think his friends would've supported him? But JK wasn't leaving to pursue his dream, he was endangering others to try and assuage his own fear, and that's why Gentarou stood in his way. I hope this makes sense?

I guess, what gave me this vibe was this part of your review:

Quote:

With JK, it’s abundantly clear at all times that he completely gave up on the KRC in order to pursue his dream. We’re not in a densely-plotted story with additional layers, because JK is exactly as self-serving and cowardly as he appears.

It’s also what makes this all so poignant, because – much to his surprise and chagrin – he’s not as self-serving and as cowardly as he appears, even though JK himself isn't aware of that. JK’s made too many real friends to be okay throwing them aside for fame, and he’s sacrificed too much as a member of the KRC to be okay with a bunch of kids wasting away from cosmic shredding.

It rather reads as if what's bad is JK leaving the KRC to be a musician, as JK's described as self-serving and cowardly following "he completely gave up on the KRC in order to pursue his dream" or "throwing them aside for fame". Though dunno if I just miss out something like joke again or such which, sorry. And I know that you did write the following about JK relying on Capricorn Zodiart power and wanting to surpass reality before, which may be the explanation on the above on how JK is cowardly and self-serving, just that the "giving up the KRC" or "throwing friends aside" for fame part can feel separate.

Quote:

High school is about finding out who you are, and JK discovers that he’s not Gene, because Gene was the dream of a kid who wanted fame at any cost, and was desperate to escape the reality of his limits. But that was a long time ago, and holding onto that fear and desperation, it’s JK forgetting about how he’s grown, and the reasons he wanted fame in the first place.

It was about fame, sure, but it was more about being able to express himself, and be seen for what he could be, and connect with others… which is all the things the KRC is already letting him do. He thought he needed God’s Zodiart ability to reach people and be loved, but here’s Gentarou spending a day learning the song that made JK love music, just for a chance to let JK show his authentic self to an audience. JK missed all that in the rush to become a star, hollowing himself out just like his brainwashed fans. He tossed aside the goal for the dream, but luckily his friends were there to remind him of what he really had to offer.

It only works if you think that JK is shallow enough to team up with a horned cosmic guitarist at the possible cost of dozens of lives, but lucky for this show, JK is the worst, and so we can see it – but even more lucky for this show, we can see that JK is capable of changing for the better, and maybe he’s been changing this whole time without us even noticing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

The sad thing is that I think Elleen was sincerely offering Yuki helpful advice at first, but Yuki responded with even more ROCKET GOD which could easily be taken as dismissal. This does seem like an example of Yuki being rude, not only deranged. It's a plot that only works due to Yuki acting like this and hiding the camera parts for a reason she cannot explain. Gentarou and the audience know that Yuki isn't a bad person, but Yuki sure gives Elleen a lot of reasons to think poorly of her, all snowballing from that first impression.

Guess this can be like Yuki's take in early arc's two-parters involving KRC member provoking the MOTW like how Shun treated Miura or JK treated Nitta, albeit it can be harder to see as Yuki wasn't intending to be rude, though yeah she's flanderized as deranged here which can give unwittingly rude behavior. Flanderization usually favors rule of funny over character depth, consistency, or development, and this can be why I'm doubtful over having several different writers or other different staff members in production. Many people defend or justify openly jerkish and rude behaviors (and Yuki here is only subtle) from flanderization as it's just meant for comedy, which involves if a character constantly beats up others like Ran does in ep. 29-30.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Gentarou is a true friend for honoring Elleen's wish to settle her fight with Fourze, even though he knew it would be a heartbreaking conclusion. He always cares about people's feelings, even when they're misguided and I think this is a rare bittersweet yet important message for the show that sometimes the help your friends want isn't the help you want to give. As Fish pointed out, Cosmic States has the tears that Fourze's previous States don't, so this is pretty appropriate to show that Gentarou has moments of suffering like other Riders.

It's heartbreaking, but I felt (can be corrected though) that the heartbreaking part is canceled by the rushed bestie in the end part for Erin so all seems fine and happy and the heartbreaking conclusion and stake is canceled. I mean, obviously Gentaro or Yuki would want to be quickly friends, just that previously it seems to take 2 whole episodes before for Erin to truly bond with them, but the ending has it being taken for just mere seconds. Sento and Banjo retained their memories at the end of Build, while Shinji and Ren didn't recognize each other, though they stare at each other for some time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Yeah, an extreme aversion to boredom is surely a weakness in many situations. If a tedious topic drags for too long, I start looking for tangents, which depends on how fast I can react. I also get irritable if my environment is too quiet or still.

I actually refer to how it's a weakness if one can only make friendships through having a common hobby, where they'd be not versatile in building relationship.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Congrats on your 7000th post!

Thanks! It's all due to the cosmic power of our bonds!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

What was that dude even looking at on his phone to be so distracted?!

Ironically, he was reading a social media post about a Zodiart rampaging on a pedestrian trail near a baseball game. (I sometimes miss writing fic!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

It rather reads as if what's bad is JK leaving the KRC to be a musician, as JK's described as self-serving and cowardly following "he completely gave up on the KRC in order to pursue his dream" or "throwing them aside for fame". Though dunno if I just miss out something like joke again or such which, sorry. And I know that you did write the following about JK relying on Capricorn Zodiart power and wanting to surpass reality before, which may be the explanation on the above on how JK is cowardly and self-serving, just that the "giving up the KRC" or "throwing friends aside" for fame part can feel separate.

It's maybe a little hard to explain, but what I was trying to get at is that JK's actions in the story are him trying to be the guy that he thinks he is -- cowardly, self-serving, willing to sacrifice others in service of his own needs -- while he's actually grown and changed so much since his first spotlight that he can't fully be that guy anymore, and he needs his friends to remind him of that.