[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanch90

How about Orderm (I think he used it like only twice)?

But yeah, only marginally physically weaker than Catastrom though the latter is rather unwieldy. Ex-Dream all in all has one of the most broken powers among final forms, its like the dream counterpart of Geats IX.

It's actually funny that Zeztz could have beaten Dawn with Orderm, but there simply wasn't an opportunity.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think it was just doubling down on Sieg as a dark twist on Baku.

Instead of a dream agent Sieg was a dream assassin.

Instead of seeing dreams as a means to make people happy as Baku did, Sieg saw it as a means of punishing the wicked even if it meant killing them and having to live with that sin each and every time.

For Baku his dream journey furthered his heroic resolve and belief in humanity while for Sieg it just made him further sink into believing the worst in humanity and embracing his own sin.

Baku was never consumed by his Nightmare while Sieg embraced his and can't tell where he begins and Punny-chan ends anymore.

Instead of working with and eventually understanding his father like Baku did, Sieg ends up killing his father for abandoning him to prison.

So I feel like that gave a lot of context to Sieg, what he represents to Baku, and how that played out in their final fight.

And this comment actually makes me think about the lost opportunity for a final villain who would complement the protagonist well. So, we're left with Tree, who's just a nasty jerk with too many resources, the faceless CODE leadership, and a possible flare-up of Lady's madness. Lady isn't all that bad as a villain, but she and Baku haven't interacted in too long, so I'm not sure she'll be able to create the necessary level of threat. Plus, I don't want Nem to suffer even more. Of course, it's always possible that Dawn will rise from the depths of Nightmares with a power-up by the end, but that's not a certainty.

[Frontier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanch90

How about Orderm (I think he used it like only twice)?

But yeah, only marginally physically weaker than Catastrom though the latter is rather unwieldy. Ex-Dream all in all has one of the most broken powers among final forms, its like the dream counterpart of Geats IX.

I think Orderm was basically a proof of concept that was finalized by Exdream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

It's actually funny that Zeztz could have beaten Dawn with Orderm, but there simply wasn't an opportunity.

I think Orderm would have been a closer fight than it was with Exdream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

And this comment actually makes me think about the lost opportunity for a final villain who would complement the protagonist well. So, we're left with Tree, who's just a nasty jerk with too many resources, the faceless CODE leadership, and a possible flare-up of Lady's madness. Lady isn't all that bad as a villain, but she and Baku haven't interacted in too long, so I'm not sure she'll be able to create the necessary level of threat. Plus, I don't want Nem to suffer even more. Of course, it's always possible that Dawn will rise from the depths of Nightmares with a power-up by the end, but that's not a certainty.

I think the Gore Nightmares are going to be the Final Bosses for the Riders since we're dealing with CODE now.

So Baku will probably have to fight Catastrom.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think Orderm would have been a closer fight than it was with Exdream.

I think so too. Orderm essentially repairs and organizes dreams, while Dawn breaks and twists them. So it's a battle of two opposing forces. Whereas with ExDream, Zeztz simply allows Dawn to realize his helplessness, and then easily defeats him, understanding that he won't give up his Nightmare.

[henshinzero]

With Sieg gone, who’ll replace him as the new Dawn? Will the rider trio be formed or will Dawn always be a dark rider?

[DreamSword]

This episode has changed not only my viewpoint on the show, but infact, my entire worldview.

I was a fool to ever think anything ill of Sieg, when in reality, he was not only the only sane man amongst the cast, but the biggest victim in Zeztz--nay--Kamen Rider as a whole.

He's a man who's been so broken by society, that he finds no other way to feel alive than to punish the wicked, which in turn, goes a long way to justify his attempts to murder people who have done no wrong. Because afterall, they'll do wrong eventually, so might as well get them out of the way now.

Even more stellar than the details that are moreso told to us rather than shown, is just how completely natural, and not at all forced the look into Sieg's' backstory is: On the surface, it might seem like Baku has no real reason to look into Sieg's' mind outside of showing his new powers with ExDream, but that's because only people who have truly looked into the deep and compelling narrative of Zeztz has a whole would be able to understand it.

And speaking of powers, oh man, repeatedly showing off ExDream's' ability to force dreams onto others in very quick succession isn't hypocritical on Baku's' part, nor does it get annoying, it instead paints Baku as a total badass who's now willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. It's just such a shame that it has to be against someone as innocent as Sieg.

Heck, even the next episode preview is far and above anything I've seen in a long time; showing us that the nonstop drama will not infact, stop. Anyone who demands a break or a breather from any sort of angle other than the war against CODE or everything in the story revolving around Baku or Sieg clearly just doesn't understand how much better off the story as a whole is this way. Just count yourself lucky that characters like Fujimi or Nasuka get so much as a single scene, you know? Not like they're important or compelling anyway.

Just, man, in the end, all I can hope for is for Sieg to come back, a fully changed man who allies himself with the just, and for everyone in the cast to welcome him with open arms.

...

I hated this episode and I still hate the arc it's attached to, much less Sieg himself. Good riddance.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

I hated this episode and I still hate the arc it's attached to, much less Sieg himself. Good riddance.

Honestly, I was even scared at the beginning of your comment. It's really possible to believe that someone has been possessed by the Nightmare.

[Pineapple924]

Looking back it's kind of funny that 2/The Lady had to comment "At least act in the interest of National Defense", considering Sieg's extended sentence was specifically due to rampant acts of vigilante justice.

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As for the meat of this ep itself, it's a very visually impressive debut fight as always.

The speedrun through Sieg's backstory was expected since our (viewers) only real POV in this show is Baku's. Sieg's backstory itself was pretty basic, but doubt Sieg himself would've wanted it any other way.

It definitely solidifies the running theme that the Nightmares, despite all their power, are really just simple minded creatures. While the humans throughout the show are the ones with all the big plans and shadow-y manipulations.

The idea that Baku can now just drag in his opponents into shared premonitory dreams at any moment during a fight and subsequently just "nope" out if the end result is too bad is... honestly pretty terrifying, but Baku seems to at least be using this power while in a much better headspace than when he first got Catastrom. Speaking of which, I was curious to see how Baku plans to deal with Seig, since killing Nox was such a big deal for him. Kind of surprised it was just "Eh, fuck that guy." (I'm sure the show will figure out how bring Sieg back somehow later mind you, but for now it's: Baku 'kicked' him into sparkles and didn't look back)

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Next Week: Good lordy, 6 is finally back and they're sending her in solo against the Final form, poor gal just can't catch a break...

[Frontier]

Honestly I think Baku "woke" Sieg up, probably without the Punish Gore Nightmare attached to him.

As far as I'm aware Kohei Amano didn't get the flowers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Even more stellar than the details that are moreso told to us rather than shown, is just how completely natural, and not at all forced the look into Sieg's' backstory is: On the surface, it might seem like Baku has no real reason to look into Sieg's' mind outside of showing his new powers with ExDream, but that's because only people who have truly looked into the deep and compelling narrative of Zeztz has a whole would be able to understand it.

I think it was very in-character for Baku to want to understand Sieg and how he ended up this way.

Quote:

And speaking of powers, oh man, repeatedly showing off ExDream's' ability to force dreams onto others in very quick succession isn't hypocritical on Baku's' part, nor does it get annoying, it instead paints Baku as a total badass who's now willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. It's just such a shame that it has to be against someone as innocent as Sieg.

He was turning a bad dream into a good dream in the course of defeating a Nightmare. That's what he's always been doing.

Quote:

Heck, even the next episode preview is far and above anything I've seen in a long time; showing us that the nonstop drama will not infact, stop. Anyone who demands a break or a breather from any sort of angle other than the war against CODE or everything in the story revolving around Baku or Sieg clearly just doesn't understand how much better off the story as a whole is this way. Just count yourself lucky that characters like Fujimi or Nasuka get so much as a single scene, you know? Not like they're important or compelling anyway.

We get a dream picnic with the main cast! Until CODE attacks, but still!

Also Fujimi being the most petty ex-cop to ever ex-cop was absolutely necessary to the plot.

[Locke]

Another absolute banger of an episode!

Sieg’s backstory was exactly the kind of leaning into this show’s various gimmicks that see this show at it’s absolute best for me. And I will eat up any unmorphed fight scene. I also thought the imagery of Zeztz infiltrating the dream world was really cool, as was Baku diving deeper and deeper into Sieg’s subconscious.

Then the actual Exdream debut, and how awesome that fight was. “Fade away, Sieg” and then the music swells dude???? Peak. Absolute cinema.

I know I have been heavily critical of other modern Rider shows going all CG overkill on us, and you could absolutely levy that criticism against Zeztz as well, but in a show where the strongest beings can literally manipulate the world around them, I’d rather they just lean into that and go crazy. If they have to use CG for that, then so be it.

I think the way Zeztz is using its CG “overkill” is certainly a lot more forgivable than a show that has two Riders flying around a carpark flinging CG bullshit at each other, that could absolutely be done practically if they were bothered.

A lot of more modern Rider shows feel like they put in fight scenes for the obligation of selling toys, which of course Zeztz is doing as well, but it is the first Rider show I’ve personally seen (as I have skipped plenty over the last decade) in a long long time, that feels like it also tells and advances its story through action as well.

I guess the real question moving forwards from here is whether the show can maintain this momentum in a world without Sieg in it, as he really was the supercharging turning point for me in this show personally, and even he couldn’t stop the show from feeling like it dragged and span its wheels a little in the middle of his arc.

I assume the final ramp up will be an all out battle with Code and whatever Code Somnia is. And they have absolutely bought my trust in seeing where exactly this all goes from here. But I won't ever forget the overwhelming blandness of how this show started, and won't just assume it'll be all rainbows just cause the show got significantly better over the last block of episodes. But I am hopeful the show remains like this, of course.