[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prinoftherng

A ton of people say that about King because honestly, when it comes to the kyoryugers having character arcs, King practically solves their arcs for then. I remember Souji's arc about getting to know his parents better, but it was practically solved by king (an example). If it wasn't that, then its the fact that King made every sentai member in the show feel useless, especially after getting the carnival mode. After getting it, the other kyoryugers are only there to control the mecha, otherwise, King could just use carnival and destroy the monsters himself. I've said this a while ago, but it holds true. At that point, the other kyoryugers may as well have been cheerleaders for King

This is what I'm getting at though. Yamato helps the others out with their problems sometimes too, and it's not like every story in Kyoryuger involved Daigo solving the problem. I haven't seen the show in a couple years but just off the top of my head I remember a late-show episode I really liked all about Ian and Ucchi being forced into a scenario where they have to overcome their clashing personalities and work together to defeat the bad guys (so basically every Sentai episode ever) and I can't even remember what Daigo did in it. I remember people always saying Souji drew the short straw with character development too but I don't remember Torin giving his super cool sword to Daigo after teaching him his super cool sword move. For that matter, nobody but Souji himself came up with the idea to copy said move in the first place.

And what does it matter if he could use Carnival to win all the fights himself? Zyuoh Whale blew a chunk of the Moon off a couple weeks ago. What's important is that he ISN'T doing it alone.

It just always seemed to me like for every example of Daigo Sentai Kingranger you can bring up, there's at least one counter-example of why the show was about everybody. Sentai always puts the Red one a bit more front and center (literally) than the other guys and I feel people exaggerate the extent to which Kyoryuger does A LOT. It's definitely a bit more heavy on the Red shilling than usual but nowhere near the levels I see it get played up as.

[Matrixbeast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

This is what I'm getting at though. Yamato helps the others out with their problems sometimes too, and it's not like every story in Kyoryuger involved Daigo solving the problem. I haven't seen the show in a couple years but just off the top of my head I remember a late-show episode I really liked all about Ian and Ucchi being forced into a scenario where they have to overcome their clashing personalities and work together to defeat the bad guys (so basically every Sentai episode ever) and I can't even remember what Daigo did in it. I remember people always saying Souji drew the short straw with character development too but I don't remember Torin giving his super cool sword to Daigo after teaching him his super cool sword move. For that matter, nobody but Souji himself came up with the idea to copy said move in the first place.

And what does it matter if he could use Carnival to win all the fights himself? Zyuoh Whale blew a chunk of the Moon off a couple weeks ago. What's important is that he ISN'T doing it alone.

It just always seemed to me like for every example of Daigo Sentai Kingranger you can bring up, there's at least one counter-example of why the show was about everybody. Sentai always puts the Red one a bit more front and center (literally) than the other guys and I feel people exaggerate the extent to which Kyoryuger does A LOT. It's definitely a bit more heavy on the Red shilling than usual but nowhere near the levels I see it get played up as.

This is a bit of agree and disagreement from me, because you brought up the only character in the series I felt actually received both a proper character arc and experienced quite a bit of growth, Souji.

But the problem Kyoryuger had is 2 pronged. King was always at the forefront, both solving any problem he has without help, as well as constantly helping others solve their own, and the characterization the other Kyoryugers get being rather lacking.
As individual characters, Nossan, Ian, and Souji are all a lot more engaging, but King soaks up screen time, and their character arcs get very little time (Nossan) or just...Don't exist (Ian), and when their problems come up, King is able to think of a solution no one else could (Except maybe Nossan's sister).
Torin was also pretty cool, but once he transformed, he fell down a spiral, too, losing relevancy beyond "Chaos's bro" around the end.

In Zyuohger's case, Yamato isn't a problem solver. Misao doesn't really respond to him when in a rut anymore, needing Leo, Sela, or Amu to get him out of it, he can't really fix the Zyuohger's problem of returning because it's completely out of his hands, most of their day to day, individual issues tend to be solved by whichever member is relevant (And it rarely seems to be Yamato), and unlike King not needing help with his own troubles, he's too afraid to let anyone else in to know.

In a 1 for 1 comparison, Yamato and King are alike, but their execution is why people aren't up in a tizzy over Yamato. He's not explicitly stated as perfect, each member contributes to the team both in and out fights (Hell, The World can legit lift buildings with a fishing pole, but no one is complaining about how strong he is because of his crippling self loathing and low self esteem )
Unless the last quarter of Zyuoh turns into Zyuoh Whale feat. The Zyuohgers, I doubt the power he has will be used for anything more than a glorified finishing attack.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

But the problem Kyoryuger had is 2 pronged. King was always at the forefront, both solving any problem he has without help, as well as constantly helping others solve their own, and the characterization the other Kyoryugers get being rather lacking.

As individual characters, Nossan, Ian, and Souji are all a lot more engaging, but King soaks up screen time, and their character arcs get very little time (Nossan) or just...Don't exist (Ian), and when their problems come up, King is able to think of a solution no one else could (Except maybe Nossan's sister).
Torin was also pretty cool, but once he transformed, he fell down a spiral, too, losing relevancy beyond "Chaos's bro" around the end.

One thing that sticks out to me about the Kyoryugers is how they all had their own subplots outside of the team. Ian has his whole deal with Aigaron (which gets resovled toward the end in a scene King isn't even present for). Ucchi has his whole deal with Dogold (which gets resolved toward the end in a scene King isn't even present for). Souji has his family problems and the whole master swordsman shtick. Nossan has his family stuff and later his whole deal with Canderila (which I don't remember King even being involved in). Amy has... um, well she hung out with Kyoryu Cyan that one time and helped Ucchi out a lot at first (she figured out he was just pretending to be a jerk before King did). Even Torin got to destroy Hell at the end (and guess who wasn't there with him?).

I think how well used what screen time they get is balances out the lack of it. With Zyuohger people who aren't named Yamato come off as (seriously just a bit, Zyuohger is pretty great) flat to me because while they're onscreen a lot and they help solve the problem of the week a lot, their characterization is communicated largely through stock Sentai episode plots (except for Misao, who has the very fresh gimmick of manic-depression but still hasn't really grown too much yet). They're all very likable characters but outside of their shared trait of homesickness there's not much going on with them.

I don't know. Obviously the execution is key here but part of me is surprised Zyuohger is the show to finally unify most of the fanbase again. I like it a lot too but it doesn't seem that much better than the shows we've been getting since Gokaiger (Ninninger excluded).

[Monsoon]

Yeah I'm with Matrix and not Fish. Yamato has the most spotlight episodes and powers in Zyuohger, sure, and the same is true of Daigo in Kyouryuuger. The difference is that Daigo is portrayed as a perfect human and the solution to every conflict in the show runs through him, while Yamato shows weakness far more often, seems far less arrogant, and isn't the hero of EVERY episode the way Daigo is.

The Kyouryuugers do have nice subplots and arcs, but they're shortchanged by Daigo in a way that's as bad as any other Sentai ever. Not the case with Yamato, at least not yet. As for the other Zyuohgers, I find the entire team likable and with fun personalities, but I agree that none of them have an arc taking shape the way a few other seasons do.

And to answer this thread's original question: fucking of course you do. I think a public poll of English-speaking Sentai fans would rank Zyuoh over Ninnin in a ratio of at least 75 to 25.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monsoon

Yeah I'm with Matrix and not Fish.
...
And to answer this thread's original question: fucking of course you do. I think a public poll of English-speaking Sentai fans would rank Zyuoh over Ninnin in a ratio of at least 75 to 25.

Hey I think Daigo hogs the spotlight way more than Yamato too. I'm just likening them to each other for the sake of argument. My actual problem here is that Ninninger and ToQger (especially poor Ninnin) both got similar complaints of being heavy on the Red shilling and given how much that distinctly is not the case with either of those shows, it's strange to me Zyuohger finally got that opinion to die down for the first time in years.

And that ratio is probably more than a bit generous.

[Matrixbeast]

ToQger doesn't get complains about red being over sold. It just gets disliked for being too childish (Yes, I know that they actually are children, not the point). Everyone has a level of silliness and goofiness they can take, especially for a series like Super Sentai. Even though the franchise is inherently silly, there's just a threshold that can be crossed, and some people felt ToQ crossed that particular line (Or track).

Ninnin people dislike for being too red focused, though. Add in that he's the least favorite "Type" or Red Ranger and it's just two simple pieces to this particular puzzle.

Concerning Kyoryuger, people don't actually dislike it. Daigo gets a lot of hate, but people still really enjoy Kyoryuger, including the crowd that don't like King. Souji and Nossan are legitimately good characters, Ian is kind of a 2010 version of Gai/Black Condor, Utsusemimaru (Okay spellcheck, tell me why THAT isn't considered a misspelled word...) was pretty cool for the first 10 episodes he appeared in, and people think Ami and KyoryuViolet II (I don't really remember her name) were cute (If someone could tell me Ami's particular story, I'd love to know). They were just caught up in a series that was absorbed by a substantially less interesting character.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

ToQger doesn't get complains about red being over sold. It just gets disliked for being too childish (Yes, I know that they actually are children, not the point).

I know that isn't people's main problem with ToQger but I've still heard it a few times, including...

Quote:

Originally Posted by vin13ish

Kyoryuger, ToQger and Ninninger were Red Ranger Show!

...this very thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Ninnin people dislike for being too red focused, though. Add in that he's the least favorite "Type" or Red Ranger and it's just two simple pieces to this particular puzzle.

That's what I'm saying though, Ninninger was never focused on Takaharu. He wasn't a leader, he wasn't the idea guy, and he wasn't even the guy who keeps everybody glued together like Right was. He was the POV character (of sorts), being an excitable guy who really loves being a ninja, and thus relatable to the kiddies, but his ratio of actual spotlight episodes is actually about equal with everybody. I think Kinji actually got more focus than he did. His super mode even got used by the other guys a few times, and yet a huge chunk of the fandom acts like he's Daigo 2.0. despite not being infallible, not always solving problems, and not always being the center of attention.

Outside of being a fiery moron (which I get is a pretty big hump for people) he's pretty much exactly the Red people were clamoring for after Kyoryuger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Concerning Kyoryuger, people don't actually dislike it. Daigo gets a lot of hate, but people still really enjoy Kyoryuger,

That seems like a pretty major part of the show to hate while still liking the overall product but I'm really happy the fandom is looking on the bright-side with at least one show. Kyoryuger really does have a lot going for it.

This is kind of an aside but I should probably mention at this point I went into the show with only a couple weeks left hearing all the Daigo hate so I spent most of the series waiting for him to "steal the show" from everyone else only for it to just not happen. I got to Carnival's debut and was like "okay, this is where it happens" only to be greeted with more of the same varied spotlight episodes and subplots not about him. I ended up liking the show so much that (after only watching Go-Busters when it was just about over) it's what made me commit to just watching Sentai weekly starting with ToQger.

Don't get me wrong, Daigo is pretty much THE most shilled Red in all of Sentai, and it definitely is at the expense of his team occasionally, but I think it gets exaggerated A LOT more than it needs to be. I rarely even see Kyoryuger brought up in any context other than "f*** Daigo" so I'm actually quite surprised to hear people like it.

[Matrixbeast]

Having not seen Ninninger past 3 episodes, I can't comment on Takaharu, so I'm just pointing out what I hear the most.

I honestly haven't seen any real complaints about ToQger being too focused on ToQ1, though...Hm. I still don't think it's the overwhelming problem people have with it, since the most common complaint is that it's childish.

As for Kyoryuger, it's all just a matter of perspective. Maybe the hype overplayed Daigo's spotlight stealing tendencies for you. Watching it on a week to week basis from the get go, I certainly got the feeling that he was in the center of things far too often, even in stories mainly centered on someone else. When I watched Kyoryu, it felt like too many episodes were "[Character] encounters issue, Daigo butts in and fixes it," personally.
Yes, character arcs were resolved without Daigo being front and center (Souji's arc with both his father and learning from Torin featured virtually no Daigo, which is why I enjoyed it so much), but to me, and a lot of others, we felt Daigo was just too shilled.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

I honestly haven't seen any real complaints about ToQger being too focused on ToQ1, though...Hm. I still don't think it's the overwhelming problem people have with it, since the most common complaint is that it's childish.

Oh absolutely. That and "the suits/robots look like cheap knockoffs!" which it sort of has in common with Zyuohger in a sense. I think the Red bashing was largely early on before it became apparent it wasn't the case, to be fair, but I still saw the opinion pop up occasionally. Maybe it's just the people who quit the show 4 episodes in who say that, I don't know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

As for Kyoryuger, it's all just a matter of perspective. Maybe the hype overplayed Daigo's spotlight stealing tendencies for you.

That was my whole point there. It definitely played a huge part. My expectations for the other guys were set so astronomically low it was basically impossible not to be impressed. I actually think the Kyoryugers all had more fleshed out personalities than usual despite King being King.

[Spearichu]

I really can not believe I am about to say this but *takes a deep breath* I uhhh agree with Fish about the Daigo hate even though I was only able to watch the first half where Violet 2 was still new to the team when I left off

though maybe it is like Matrix said where the Daigo hate only happens if watched each episode instead of watching it in chunks like I did because Daigo just seemed to be the standard red ranger nothing too special about him no reason for me to hate him