[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by Androzani84

One thing I recall from when I was skulking around TN without being a member during this period: Someone who didn?t like this episode (I forget who. Maybe, Fish will know) saying that they should?ve done a plot about Sougo?s birthday in the OOO arc.

On the other hand, it's sort of perfect for me (and maybe me alone) that Sougo's birthday lands in a Hibiki story, since I like to think that Woz'z anxiety over crafting the perfect birthday celebration for Sougo is a reference to one of the greatest Todoroki storylines of all time:

[Sh Ranger]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I just assumed that Tsukuyomi has been aching to talk about this, and it's only after SEVEN MONTHS of teamwork that Sougo asks her about herself. These kids don't do a great job of emotionally supporting Tsukuyomi, no matter what Shouichi says. I mean, sure, she sometimes tries to guilt one of them into murdering the other, but still!

It does feel like the kind of thing Sougo should've asked her that time when they were paired up in Episode 7. But I imagine Tsukuyomi would've been too guarded to be candid about it.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 33 - ?2005 - REJOICE! RESOUND! REVERBERATE!?

Oh hey, the Hibiki arc was my fifth choice for the hypothetical TN Watches thread. I guess I should talk about it, huh?

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I kinda love him, though?

Same here! People complain about Kiriya for how much trouble he causes, but that's exactly what I appreciate about his contribution to the story. He's the catalyst for Shounen's internal conflict, by making him think about what it means to be an Oni and an independent person. There are a lot of reasons why I'm critical of the second half of Hibiki. Kiriya isn't one of those things though!

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The thing I liked best about Kiriya was that he was so much work for Hibiki. Asumu was a bright, sensitive kid with a ton of people rooting for him. Kiriya was a little shit who kept weirdly failing upwards. But kids like that maybe need a mentor like Hibiki more than a kid like Asumu, and that?s a worthy point for a show to make. There was always, for me at least, the idea that Kiriya wasn?t irredeemable. The version of Kiriya that everyone hates, that didn?t really go anywhere. That?s the part that Todoroki knows, and the part that gets the spotlight in this episode. But the part of him that could maybe be better, find the humility that eluded him, that was always peeking around the edges in Kamen Rider Hibiki. There?s an explanation to Kiriya?s actions ? his post-show history ? that I?m really anxious to hear. Todoroki may have written Kiriya off, but like Hibiki, I sure haven?t.

Todoroki seems a little self-righteous here. When he wasn't much younger than Kiriya is in the present, he screwed up a lot as well before he finally figured out how to be an authentic Oni. He doesn't have the perspective of being a mentor either, so he doesn't understand how difficult that can be and maybe expects Kiriya to be more like Zanki. People may begrudge Kiriya's return, but that's why I think it's such a good decision. A chance to re-evaluate a resented character and learn that even an a**hole like him can change and become a better person. That's what Hibiki's all about, right? To learn. That goes for us viewers as well. Kiriya's means are misguided here, but it's clear that he definitely cares about his disciple Tsutomu and wishes for his success, which is a side of him we haven't really seen before. Hibiki has rubbed off on him and that's a victory for the show.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I?d think it?s going to be a look at how these Kamen Riders won?t just exist as fun Heisei Dads like Shouichi; mentors kinda got their own stuff to deal with, emotionally!

That's what I loved about Ibuki, how passionate he is about being a good mentor and his fear of failing Akira. So yeah, an arc that explores Kiriya's personal problems now that's he's a mentor himself, I think that's a really cool premise! And a good moral that mentors aren't always wise and that you're never too old to keep learning new things about life.

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Originally Posted by Androzani84

(I did do it for that week?s Sentai episode)

I recall that was a very tragic episode of Liveman! I also recall there was a 3 week interval between the last of Showa and the first of Heisei. Not quite as terrible as 2020's 6 week hiatus, but it was still a lot at the time!

[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The difference is that her past is now potentially tied up in the Time Jackers schemes, and her powers are a new development. Her immediate priorities have changed, and she has a personal goal of understanding her own mysteries. Like, she can still have a long-term goal of Saving The Future, while having a personal goal of uncovering her past. They don't have to overwrite each other or anything.

Then I think some other words for this can convey it better (at least to me), like additional goal rather than different personal goal or such. I don't know why goals like saving the future is degraded in this type of talks as something long-term and seems to be considered inherent here (like unfairly deeming something that is less interesting as generic when the total amount may be the same), people can have different goal and there are those who accomplishes great things due to their great power/intelligence but has entirely selfish goal, and the goals that seem 'generic' or 'inherent' or 'long-term' like saving the future is necessary to differentiate between outwardly similar outcomes.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 32 - ?2001 - UNKNOWN MEMORIES?

He?s a guy that never valued his past more than his present, so that?s absolutely going to be the lesson he imparts to Tsukuyomi. (Also, his past was just dumb stuff on a boat with an Agito Jesus, so you can see why he wouldn?t advise anyone to dig into their repressed memories.) It helps that it?s a lesson that the whole cast ends up learning at different points, making it more of an overall theme of the series than some random one-off life lesson. In the same way that Geiz was so focused on the needs of the future that he risked losing a friendship in the present, Tsukuyomi is so spun around about the Troubling Mysteries of her past that she runs out on the friends who need her right now. In both cases, it?s an overemphasis on the individual over the group. The Time Orphans take on all this weight, and view their problems as Their Problems, rather than something that their friends can help with. More than that, they miss the ways that their worries can be alleviated by focusing on the connections they have right this second. Keeping things present-tense can also keep you grounded, and it can let you better appreciate the support systems you have available to you. Probably pretty tough for four-dimensional commandos to understand, but it?s something worth keeping in mind.

While Shouichi's past wasn't that important, there are different past that others might have. The past can be probably a key to solve a present day problem. Applying to Tsukuyomi as it's not known yet here. I'd think that it may be important to dig up the past, but Tsukuyomi had to be less stressed for it and for that she did get it, as what I said before, her primary goal is still to change the future for the better and guide Sougo on the right path. While she can get more knowledge regarding her past on her way ahead, those 2 can still be done without looking for her past which means yeah she can less stressing about the past to focus on her primary goal. And sorry, but her running out of the friends who need her also partially has part in Tsukuyomi that sided with White Woz, that she now admits of being hypocritical that she plotted against Sougo for his time manipulation power, but turns out that Tsukuyomi also can manipulate time. Actually I also kinda expected if Tsukuyomi had different reaction to Shouichi's cooking or such (not hoping it to be in rude way though), like for Shouichi being a great chef, Tsukuyomi is also used to eating foods from another great chef in Junichiro thus her reaction is more ordinary or such, but actually no.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Sometimes that happens! The whole back half of this episode is a gigantic battle against Evil Agito and a bunch Another Agito mooks, and it was definitely fun to watch. It just? it?s a big fight! It?s got a new song! (I think! I mostly don?t notice the music in these shows!) A ton of things explode! I mostly don?t care! Your mileage may vary (and I?m sure at least one person is going to tell me that the fight at the end of Episode 32 is one of their favorite Zi-O moments), but I found the whole back half of this episode to be entertaining, but weightless. There?s no real strategy to defeating the villains; it?s just overwhelming power. I don?t really understand why the Agito Ridewatch creates an exact duplicate of Agito, instead of the usual Another Rider thing. (I don?t even understand how the Anotherer Agito even exists without a Ridewatch as the power source?) The episode basically ended for me after the scene with Tsukuyomi and Shouichi at Restaurant Agito. The rest was fun, but nothing worth digging into.

It was answered here regarding Zi-O and Agito Trinity, yeah the part you missed when talked about Zi-O Trinity should be something for Den-O tribute. And of course that's actually the better part for this fight to have the Agito nod and Woz actually talking about that. And I guess Shouichi naming his restaurant after Agito is underutilized that it wasn't used to target him with that either unlike Sougo's search engine use. Other than that yeah I'm actually not a fan of mook fights though it's necessary to show off abilities, but Another(er) Agito here is the mook type of enemy, made as a virus that spreads to others from a leader, and they keep the civilian's clothing intact like Masquerade Dopant (also pathetically weak).

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Todoroki seems a little self-righteous here. When he wasn't much younger than Kiriya is in the present, he screwed up a lot as well before he finally figured out how to be an authentic Oni. He doesn't have the perspective of being a mentor either, so he doesn't understand how difficult that can be and maybe expects Kiriya to be more like Zanki. People may begrudge Kiriya's return, but that's why I think it's such a good decision. A chance to re-evaluate a resented character and learn that even an a**hole like him can change and become a better person. That's what Hibiki's all about, right? To learn. That goes for us viewers as well. Kiriya's means are misguided here, but it's clear that he definitely cares about his disciple Tsutomu and wishes for his success, which is a side of him we haven't really seen before. Hibiki has rubbed off on him and that's a victory for the show.

I can sort of see Todoroki's side of things, though. For one, him and Kiriya never seemed to overlap much, storyline-wise, so I can't imagine Todoroki has a lot of patience for Kiriya's... for Kiriya. Kiriya's just some shitty coworker who is leaving the hard work for others, and that's on top of taking a title he didn't earn. Are there mitigating circumstances? Yeah, maybe! But it's not like Kiriya is Todoroki's project or anything.

(That's a note about the Oni that I'm glad this episode tossed in: this is a job for these guys. All the Oni in Japan aren't good friends or found family or whatever Phase 2 is all about. These guys are hardworking defenders of Japan, but it's work. I love that note!)

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

While Shouichi's past wasn't that important, there are different past that others might have. The past can be probably a key to solve a present day problem. Applying to Tsukuyomi as it's not known yet here.

Yeah, no, I'm just giving Agito's show a hard time here. I did not like the stories about Shouichi's past! Or spending time puzzling out what happened on the Akatsuki-go!

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

And I guess Shouichi naming his restaurant after Agito is underutilized that it wasn't used to target him with that either unlike Sougo's search engine use.

I also don't think anyone's left to look for Kamen Rider Agito, villain-wise? The Spooky Man stuff was pretty well wrapped up, as far as open combat with monsters is concerned. Probably fine to call his restaurant that?

[GrandComplete]

The beginning of the Kikai Arc and this two parter has a very introspective feel to it. Lots of shots with very few characters emphasizing how Team ZI-O is fracturing apart. So let's talk Tsukuyomi here the biggest failing is that she's been relgated to the background for so long that thsi switch feels too fast for what happening to her character I wished she was more involved before for greater impact on the story. But on the other hand I understand where she coming from with context with what happened last episode. We audience have the benefit of seeing the entire story play out with Mirror!Sougo but everyone else was locked out of the loop in that one so Sougo whole deal of accepting his own darkness and begin showing the same power as Ohma is the catalyst for their falling out though I do think alining with White Woz was a bit too much.

And how could we forget about Kikai himself there something so glorysly Showa about him from his denim outfit, too the school of kids flocking him and the rural countryside of 2121 that brings a nice vibe to the guy. And the Kikaider refrenace are pretty easy to figure out even if you havrn't seen it but ever wonder why Kikai had ice themed finishers? Well the actor also played Zamigo from Lupinranger vs Patranger who had ice powers so that was a cool touch.

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by GrandComplete

And how could we forget about Kikai himself there something so glorysly Showa about him from his denim outfit, too the school of kids flocking him and the rural countryside of 2121 that brings a nice vibe to the guy.

They really did a great job on all of the Very Seventies elements of Kikai and his world. His tiny denim jacket somehow managed to become iconic to me in only two appearances. I'm gonna remember that long after I forget Zi-O's real name.

(That's not true. I will always remember the way Woz says "Tokiwa Sougo" in the opening of each episode. I guarantee that you just heard it the same way in your head right now.)

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 33 - ?2005 - REJOICE! RESOUND! REVERBERATE!?

And he mostly is! He?s pretending to be Hibiki, complete with the Hibiki Salute that I assume killed Switchblade stone dead in 2019, leaving his ghost to haunt these boards and remind people that Hibiki was a 29-episode series. It?s terrifically fake, Kiriya?s bullshit. He?s mostly just torturing Team Zi-O, making them do a bunch of physical training in order to distract them from hunting down Another Hibiki.

I mean for you there was an option for you liking him, because Kiriya's someone who stirrs shit and would cause more drama and chaos (and treated as fun and interesting..). In opposite, a character who is people's favorite of KR franchise as a whole was Kiriya's nemesis, Kuroto, someone that is sociopathic and has god complex. And Kiriya's actually a rarer case too of someone like this not being liked, while for you, the one that you didn't like was so far the likes of Kotaro in Den-O. And due to how he's a worst, which is acknowledged here, this can leave a bitter taste in the mouth to see how Kiriya can get the high position as an Oni trainer in the first place right here despite his behavior, if not about how his behavior got rewarded in Hibiki before by him turning into a Rider and thus likely having some paragon status.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The thing I liked best about Kiriya was that he was so much work for Hibiki. Asumu was a bright, sensitive kid with a ton of people rooting for him. Kiriya was a little shit who kept weirdly failing upwards. But kids like that maybe need a mentor like Hibiki more than a kid like Asumu, and that?s a worthy point for a show to make. There was always, for me at least, the idea that Kiriya wasn?t irredeemable. The version of Kiriya that everyone hates, that didn?t really go anywhere. That?s the part that Todoroki knows, and the part that gets the spotlight in this episode. But the part of him that could maybe be better, find the humility that eluded him, that was always peeking around the edges in Kamen Rider Hibiki. There?s an explanation to Kiriya?s actions ? his post-show history ? that I?m really anxious to hear. Todoroki may have written Kiriya off, but like Hibiki, I sure haven?t.

Kiriya is obviously not irredeemable, if many shows featuring people with similar behaviors like secondary Riders (that Yuuto too) can attest. I guess it'd be the presentation of this kind of character here regarding how Kiriya probably gets away with too much stuff with his behavior or even being rewarded and have it being excused by him just being different instead. Though for the ones who don't like him, I'd also think that deeming a character as worse than the most despicable villains due to them annoying the audience more (i̶n̶c̶l̶u̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶K̶i̶r̶i̶y̶a̶) to be personal bias. Actually I'm someone who wouldn't want for Asumu to become a Rider, rather him learning from Hibiki in another field of life, but I like about how in their training, Asumu's the one who is superior compared to Kiriya, despite about how outwardly it'd imply otherwise with Kiriya being more physically imposing than Asumu, and also 'oozes' more 'power' via his aggressive and hostile behavior, while Asumu's peaceful and the type who can be a pushover too by that.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Tons of great Kamen Rider Hibiki callbacks in this episode: Todoroki?s one guitar song, and the way his fight music was full of shredding; a brief camping scene; that shot of Heure leaping backwards into a tree is I?d swear the type of shot they used on Hibiki; the word Makamou, which I love; and all of that training, which is as much a Hibiki callback as the Echoing Oni screens in the pre-credit sequence. This episode did a terrific job of evoking Hibiki throughout, and I couldn?t?ve been happier.

So by evoking Hibiki, it means that this episode had the first half Hibiki in its setting which'd be more unusual in Kamen Rider, where the 2nd half of it had Hibiki's setting use the more 'generic' ones as in the city.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Even the little (very funny!) runner with Woz trying to figure out how to celebrate Sougo?s birthday ? which is coming up in only three days for all of us! ? feels of a piece with Asumu?s relationship with Hibiki, and how hard it can be to tell the people we admire how we feel about them. It?s easy to be over-the-top or theatrical, but it?s hard to be real. Woz?z incredibly charming attempts to Make The Biggest Deal are, as Tsukuyomi, exactly the wrong way to celebrate Sougo. They?re the right way to celebrate Zi-O, but not Sougo. The ability to see past the hero to the person underneath is, again, a pretty big Hibiki theme!

I guess there's fundamental difference of how Asumu and Hibiki are normal folks, while Woz is someone absurd as well as was quite evil at least previously. Sougo is someone who wants to become a kind overlord to save the world, while Woz would do anything to make him Ohma Zi-O, but is against Sougo's wishes by encouraging Sougo to give in his dark traits (would mean Woz doesn't see Sougo as the hero tbh, his idol for sure, but more of his dictator), or eliminating his friends who are in Woz's way (disguised as in Sougo's way), like especially Geiz to insist Sougo not rescuing him. I guess it's not about how hard to tell the feelings to the people we admire, but Woz has been constantly going against what Sougo wants all this time due to how he's the bad side regarding the premise of someone sweet turning dictator. Here, for this episode Woz kinda realizes about how his treatment of Sougo can be something bad instead after Tsukuyomi flipped out on his callousness. Some of the talking some sense that is much needed for Sougo's corruptor.

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Actually I'm someone who wouldn't want for Asumu to become a Rider, rather him learning from Hibiki in another field of life, but I like about how in their training, Asumu's the one who is superior compared to Kiriya, despite about how outwardly it'd imply otherwise with Kiriya being more physically imposing than Asumu, and also 'oozes' more 'power' via his aggressive and hostile behavior, while Asumu's peaceful and the type who can be a pushover too by that.

Yeah, I always liked how Asumu's story wasn't about directly following in Hibiki's footsteps and becoming an Oni. The ending of Hibiki was super meta, in the ways it talked about putting Kamen Rider away and maybe coming back to it someday, or just in shows ending and fans moving on to the next one. The lesson Kamen Rider shows teach kids isn't literally How To Be A Kamen Rider, and so it shouldn't be that way for Asumu.

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 34 - “2019 - THE HEISEI ONI AND THE REIWA ONI”



“This crop withstood the months of snow
The scavengers and blight
Tuned every ear towards a tiny lengthening of light
And found a way to rise.”

-John K. Samson, “Winter Wheat”

Kamen Rider Hibiki was always really two shows, happening simultaneously. It was a series about how to grow up, and a series about how best to raise a child. The second part is the element I found the most fascinating, and it’s that part this episode focuses on.

We had a dozen stories about mentors for Sougo or Geiz; Heisei Dads stopping by to impart a little wisdom and move on with their lives. The Hibiki thing was to show the work of that guidance and responsibility. If we’re used to our teenage leads being complex and works-in-progress, maybe it’s time to see their mentors in the same light.

Kiriya was a kid who lost his dad, and felt a hollowness because of that. He measured himself up against a heroic ghost, something in which he’d always feel diminished by comparison. Every academic or athletic success was a cry for approval he could never get. His abrasive personality – just, like, his whole personality – was a kid who wanted to be told he was good enough, and to feel like someone cared about him, but didn’t know how to be vulnerable enough to ask for those things.

He eventually trained under Hibiki, and that probably didn’t help him too much, psychologically. He just ended up replacing a dead hero of a dad with a living hero of a father-figure. Hibiki probably cared for him as a mentor, but couldn’t fill the emotional void that motivated Kiriya. Kiriya… he’s a collection of all of his traumas and triumphs, just like anyone.

Just like your parents, probably.

It’s a smart story to do in a kids' show, eventually. To demystify parenthood. Shows like this usually deify parenthood, show parents as unfailing beacons of positivity and support – that, or demonize them as cold-hearted villains for their lack of warmth and attention. They show parents like Kiriya saw them: idols to worship and fear.

But parents, like children, don’t arrive fully-formed. They’re like Kiriya, with his apprentice. They have kids by accident, or with hope for the future, or to fill a void in themselves, or to prove something to the world, or or or. They bring their own baggage to the table, and screw up without even noticing. They think of how their parents did things, and try to calibrate off of that. They struggle, constantly, to turn a child into an adult.

I loved this episode. I loved how it didn’t redeem Kiriya, so much as it tried to provide a larger context for why he’s still an insufferable prick after all these years, despite becoming a mentor and a hero. Because it’s… those things don’t negate each other, or act in conflict, you know? Being a parent is as complicated and terrifying as growing up, just from the opposite side. Kiriya never really figured his shit out, because Figuring Your Shit Out isn’t a prerequisite for being a parent. He screwed things up by trying to be Hibiki, when all Tsutomu ever wanted was Kiriya. He didn’t want Kiriya’s mentor, because he didn’t know that guy. He wanted his mentor to be proud of him, and that’s all that mattered.

Even the Woz/Sougo story is looped into the idea of how best to care for someone, as comedic as the plot was. The lesson there is the same lesson that Kiriya learns: just, show up. That’s Step 1 of being a parent, and probably the most important one. It doesn’t mean that everything’s going to work out, or that you’ll get an infinite number of chances to figure things out. But it raises the floor from the worst outcomes, creating space to recover from mistakes. Kiriya’s triumph in saving Tsutomu is all in the simple fact that he wouldn’t abandon Tsutomu, that he said Hey Man, I’m Here For You. That’s the most important thing we get from guidance, really. Being seen, listened to. It’s the most valuable skill a mentor can have.

If it took Kiriya a little bit too long to see the value in himself as a mentor, there’s some beauty in how his self-improvement came as the result of being a good father-figure to a troubled teenager. The symmetry of that, him accidentally growing into what he needed as a kid… God, what a tribute to what Kamen Rider Hibiki was like as a TV show.

[Enchilada645]

Yeah I really liked this episode too. You're definitely right in that they don't really try to redeem Kiriya in a sense. But they do allow him to sort of take that next step forward. Though I'm sure not too many people were probably happy about him being able to transform into Hibiki, even if it was a one and done thing.

Overall though it's really nice and while I had no real attachment to Hibiki as a series, I thought it was a rather nice tribute. Also I liked the birthday party with Sougo at the end. If only because there's something about how it so neatly and blatantly tells you about the passage of time alongside other events. Just mentions of Christmas, New Years, Sougo's graduation, etc. Time is passing and we're feeling it pass.

Next time... oh man, these episodes. I'd say these break the streak of really nice Rider Tribute episodes even if I don't outright hate them. In fact there are aspects about them I adore and love a lot. It's just uh... it's a lot different than our new usual.

As is our BGM Swaps. I mean the obvious Kiva vibes, of course it's going to be the usual Kiva BGM Swap. But we've got a wily Giant Space Flea from Nowhere interrupting things too. So much so that the most appropriate extra BGM Swap is using the Ultraman Ginga Preview Theme.

Zero's Legend Episode Previews Corner - EP 35 Preview: