[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Den-O

Easily. It had a great story with interesting characters on top of spot on designs.

Except it didn't. The story was full of holes and recycled Inoue plot beats and the characters were varying shades of inconsistent and stupid.

I don't know. Maybe if I hadn't already seen Faiz, later Hibiki, and the First/Next movies. But by the time I got to Kiva I was completely over Toshiki Inoue and, while Kiva was better than those other things I mentioned, it still has all of his same tropes being reused yet again.

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Den-O

And it wasn't better anyway since OOO was a much better series overall.

That's my personal opinion however

I can't agree with that. Not that I'm saying you can't like it more. I mean, go ahead, I still love the show. But better than Double? OOOs story was told well, but concepts and ideas were either too silly to accept against everything else, or didn't jive with the rules the series had presented. Also while the final episode itself was great, the show just wasn't as enjoyable near the end. I felt like Ankh's character arch was mismanaged. His decision of "I don't want to be a Greeed" while perfectly in line with his motivations before, came far too late to really be a game-changer. It seemed like it was crammed in with everything else too late in the game. I also felt like Eiji's story, while again a very good one, was drawn out and became a bit repetative. I think it would've worked better if the purple medals didn't make him lose control at first. Having him lose control, gain control, then all of a sudden lose it again just to overcome it seemed a touch contrived. They basically used the same idea twice. And it was very blatant.

I also felt that there were far more "useless" characters than double. Double had a lot of random friends of theirs that showed up, and so did OOOs. I'm not talking about Santa verses the Resturant owner. I mean main supporting characters. Mainly Birthday Man's assistant and Hina. My God they were pointless, the assistant more than Hina. When I saw the assistant at the end trying to catch Eiji like everyone else in his power revelation I genuinely cocked my head because of how utterly vacant the character had been. She had no personality, no purpose that couldn't have been given to a candroid, no nothing.

Hina is also vexing. While Akiko started out pretty annoying, her boundless energy, determination and few genuine successes made her pretty endearing. Hell, I was laughing out loud at her antics by the end. She never felt useless, unlike Hina. Hina's only job was to stand there and look pitiful, occasionally hugging someone for a contrived bit of character realization. She had no personality, had as much energy as Ben Stein, and did nothing worthwhile. Her big thing is that she's super strong, but the show forgets that by, like, episode twenty. So realy, totally pointless. Akiko, for all her character faults, was strong, silly, supportive, yet well contrasted. I remember her infiltrating the Sonozaki mansion as a maid and uncovering the Sweets dopant, uncovering the Pupeteer dopant, as well as the only one besides Shotaro to put up any sort of fight against the dream dopant. Now think of that for a second, he's a dopant that invades and controls dreams. He projects his mental prowess onto someone else to control their mind. So for Akiko to be able to even inconvenience him, let alone mentally attack him, puts her mental control (or possible lack thereof) on the same level as Shotaro.

Akiko was awesome. Hina sucked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SideswipePrime

Cool! So wold you say it's beter than Double? Or is Double still your favorite?

Subjectively I think Double will always be my favourite. Objectively I still think Double is better. It was just better crafted, and it got far more emotional responses out of me than OOOs did. (And I had been spoiled to W's ending, so it had that working against it)

On W's ending verses OOOs: Really, as much as some people say it "cheapened" the second to last episode, I don't really see that. The emotion in the scene where Shotaro lets Philip go wasn't really undone, since it was still a major point to his character. And while philip wasn't gone long for us, he was for Shotaro, and seeing Shotaro not lose strength in the meantime was a huge service to the character. And his reuniting with Philip was very well done, really makign the relation between the two seem incredibly genuine.

Sadly, while I didn't want to do this, the main decider for which series overall was better comes mainly due to the acting. Shotaro's actor really, really portrays the character well, and really gets across the intense emotion Shotaro is based around. That's the best part of Shotaro and Philip: one is heart-on-his-sleeve and overflowing with personality, one is very reserved and awkward, sometimes oblivious, to emotion. They both aspire to be more, and grow in different ways, Shotaro accepting who he is and realising emotion is not something to just be ignored, and Philip wanting a family and to, basically, feel love and loved again.

Eiji... I like the character a lot, I like the actor a lot, but he's not Shotaro. He's just not the emotional powerhouse. I'm not saying he has to be the same character, but I can't remember a lot of scenes where Eiji expressed so much emotion outside of his oft-repeated civil war flashback, even when he should have. It got very tiring, honestly, and is one of the reasons I'll probably end up forgetting a huge part of him. He had a character, but he didn't have much of a personality.

Combine that with the other (minor mind you) flaws of the show and I can't honestly call OOOs better than Double. They are the same tier though. And OOOs did not ever dissapoint, especially coming off of Double which I, and many I've heard, consider one of the stronger series. I don't want to pick a favourite or which is better, but if I had to, it's Double, both times.

[Matrixbeast]

Thinking about it, did they ever explain Hina's super strength?
Honestly, while I didn't feel Hina was as useless as you say (I actually felt she took her entire situation, dying brother, monster possessing him (And keeping him alive), as well as her entire world just going to hell) in a rather realistic way, rather than turning into a 90's action girl like lots of other series (Both Japanese and Western) would do.
She did seem pretty mopey at times, but I didn't feel it was too often (Granted, as I said before, it took me 50 weeks to watch OOO (Since I watched it as it aired), so my knowledge of the frequency of certain reoccurring events is skewed).

[Den-O]

Honestly I never found Hina to be all that weak or mopey. Certianly not Satonaka, she was a total badass as a part of Team Birth. In the finale she kicked tons of ass too. I've always felt OOO had one of the best supporting casts in recent years. Definitely better than Fourze & Wiizards' cast and in my opinion easily better than W's.

[Dr Kain]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

Except it didn't. The story was full of holes and recycled Inoue plot beats and the characters were varying shades of inconsistent and stupid.

I don't know. Maybe if I hadn't already seen Faiz, later Hibiki, and the First/Next movies. But by the time I got to Kiva I was completely over Toshiki Inoue and, while Kiva was better than those other things I mentioned, it still has all of his same tropes being reused yet again.

If he had something to do with 555 and Hibiki's second half, then he learned how to write a story before he hit Kiva. And a Kamen Rider series reuse tropes? Oh no, that has never happened before.

[SPLIT LIP]

Thing is, I never took her as "accepting all this craziness" which I know was the intent so much as "just being incredibly complacent and standing around." She never did anything. And I mean never did anything. Not once can I remember her genuinely taking charge, asserting herself or her ideals, doing things by herself or in any way be a human being with motivations. She was an accesory. She was the token girl companion because every series has to have one. (most seem to have dead or missing parents, too) She had no plot, no goal, and for all their talk about how Eiji had no desire, she had no desire either. At least no more than him. She wanted her brother back. Okay, she never did anything about it and honestly took it about as well as Eiji took, well, anything.

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Den-O

Honestly I never found Hina to be all that weak or mopey. Certianly not Satonaka, she was a total badass as a part of Team Birth. In the finale she kicked tons of ass too. I've always felt OOO had one of the best supporting casts in recent years. Definitely better than Fourze & Wiizards' cast and in my opinion easily better than W's.

Satonaka (see, I didn't even remember her name, and unlike Catface or Birthday Man it wasn't because I like my names for them better) wasn't mopey, she was just completley contrived. She had no reason to be there, wasn't a real badass (real badasses do stuff because of their personality, something she had none of) she just showed up in often moronic outfits and fired a gun. She was pure cheesecake pointlessness.

Hina wasn't mopey, she just looked pitiful. She always stood around with a sad puppy face. Not because she was mopey, just because that's what the director told her to do. She had no purpose and the show woudn't have suffered if both those characters didn't exist.

I suppose OOO's did have a greta supporting cast: i.e. the one staht actually supported the main character. Satonoka and Hina were just total wastes, one as a "my eyes are glossing over as she speaks" leading lady, one as an eye-rollingly painful droning robot that occsionally shows up out of the contrived ether to try and fail to convince us she's not just there for the mature male audience.

EDIT: Fuck, double-posted. Meant to edit my other one.

[coturos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

I can't agree with that. Not that I'm saying you can't like it more. I mean, go ahead, I still love the show. But better than Double? OOOs story was told well, but concepts and ideas were either too silly to accept against everything else, or didn't jive with the rules the series had presented. Also while the final episode itself was great, the show just wasn't as enjoyable near the end. I felt like Ankh's character arch was mismanaged. His decision of "I don't want to be a Greeed" while perfectly in line with his motivations before, came far too late to really be a game-changer. It seemed like it was crammed in with everything else too late in the game. I also felt like Eiji's story, while again a very good one, was drawn out and became a bit repetative. I think it would've worked better if the purple medals didn't make him lose control at first. Having him lose control, gain control, then all of a sudden lose it again just to overcome it seemed a touch contrived. They basically used the same idea twice. And it was very blatant.

I also felt that there were far more "useless" characters than double. Double had a lot of random friends of theirs that showed up, and so did OOOs. I'm not talking about Santa verses the Resturant owner. I mean main supporting characters. Mainly Birthday Man's assistant and Hina. My God they were pointless, the assistant more than Hina. When I saw the assistant at the end trying to catch Eiji like everyone else in his power revelation I genuinely cocked my head because of how utterly vacant the character had been. She had no personality, no purpose that couldn't have been given to a candroid, no nothing.

Hina is also vexing. While Akiko started out pretty annoying, her boundless energy, determination and few genuine successes made her pretty endearing. Hell, I was laughing out loud at her antics by the end. She never felt useless, unlike Hina. Hina's only job was to stand there and look pitiful, occasionally hugging someone for a contrived bit of character realization. She had no personality, had as much energy as Ben Stein, and did nothing worthwhile. Her big thing is that she's super strong, but the show forgets that by, like, episode twenty. So realy, totally pointless. Akiko, for all her character faults, was strong, silly, supportive, yet well contrasted. I remember her infiltrating the Sonozaki mansion as a maid and uncovering the Sweets dopant, uncovering the Pupeteer dopant, as well as the only one besides Shotaro to put up any sort of fight against the dream dopant. Now think of that for a second, he's a dopant that invades and controls dreams. He projects his mental prowess onto someone else to control their mind. So for Akiko to be able to even inconvenience him, let alone mentally attack him, puts her mental control (or possible lack thereof) on the same level as Shotaro.

Akiko was awesome. Hina sucked.

Subjectively I think Double will always be my favourite. Objectively I still think Double is better. It was just better crafted, and it got far more emotional responses out of me than OOOs did. (And I had been spoiled to W's ending, so it had that working against it)

On W's ending verses OOOs: Really, as much as some people say it "cheapened" the second to last episode, I don't really see that. The emotion in the scene where Shotaro lets Philip go wasn't really undone, since it was still a major point to his character. And while philip wasn't gone long for us, he was for Shotaro, and seeing Shotaro not lose strength in the meantime was a huge service to the character. And his reuniting with Philip was very well done, really makign the relation between the two seem incredibly genuine.

Sadly, while I didn't want to do this, the main decider for which series overall was better comes mainly due to the acting. Shotaro's actor really, really portrays the character well, and really gets across the intense emotion Shotaro is based around. That's the best part of Shotaro and Philip: one is heart-on-his-sleeve and overflowing with personality, one is very reserved and awkward, sometimes oblivious, to emotion. They both aspire to be more, and grow in different ways, Shotaro accepting who he is and realising emotion is not something to just be ignored, and Philip wanting a family and to, basically, feel love and loved again.

Eiji... I like the character a lot, I like the actor a lot, but he's not Shotaro. He's just not the emotional powerhouse. I'm not saying he has to be the same character, but I can't remember a lot of scenes where Eiji expressed so much emotion outside of his oft-repeated civil war flashback, even when he should have. It got very tiring, honestly, and is one of the reasons I'll probably end up forgetting a huge part of him. He had a character, but he didn't have much of a personality.

Combine that with the other (minor mind you) flaws of the show and I can't honestly call OOOs better than Double. They are the same tier though. And OOOs did not ever dissapoint, especially coming off of Double which I, and many I've heard, consider one of the stronger series. I don't want to pick a favourite or which is better, but if I had to, it's Double, both times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Thing is, I never took her as "accepting all this craziness" which I know was the intent so much as "just being incredibly complacent and standing around." She never did anything. And I mean never did anything. Not once can I remember her genuinely taking charge, asserting herself or her ideals, doing things by herself or in any way be a human being with motivations. She was an accesory. She was the token girl companion because every series has to have one. (most seem to have dead or missing parents, too) She had no plot, no goal, and for all their talk about how Eiji had no desire, she had no desire either. At least no more than him. She wanted her brother back. Okay, she never did anything about it and honestly took it about as well as Eiji took, well, anything.

Ya, hina did nothing. Except for saving eiji like every other episode after the putotyra cores were introduced.


And akiko was the most annoyingly character in the universe. I would praise kabuto for the rest of my life if she never existed. This was all the development she got:
Why was I not told?! *slipper slap*

Why was I not told?! *slipper slap* I love Terui....



And she did nothing for the sweets dopant. She literally just stumbled into the answer, she did nothing

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by coturos

Ya, hina did nothing. Except for saving eiji like every other episode after the putotyra cores were introduced.

Oh great, she was useful for, like three episodes before he overcame them... just in time to lose control again. Where were her magic hugs then?

Also, I neve rgot that. The two weren't even romantically close. Hell, they were barely close no that I think about it. Why would he stop mid-strike at her, but bludgeon Date and Brotou (characters he's far closer to and has a strong friendship with) until candy came out?

And it's really hard to sell me on a character when, as I said, she's already largely useless and has no engaging personality. She was a damsel in distress minus the distress. You will never convince me that she was in any way interesting or enjoyable to watch. She couldn't act, she had no expressions outside of sadface and awkward giggle, and she did nothing. Like I said, she never took charge, never did anything herslef, even when she could have.

Quote:

And she did nothing for the sweets dopant. She literally just stumbled into the answer, she did nothing

She went undercover as a maid of her own accord. If she hadn't then they would have never found out who it was.

[coturos]

Also I forgot to mention. Having no development was satonaka's whole thing. She was a worker. She did her job, and left. She didn't get attached to anyone so of course she wouldnt face development.