[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I think it's more that he's become a cunning manipulator, not that he always was. We've started a journey with Sougo, and that journey has already helped him feel more confident in pursuing his dream. Previously, he was content to just assume he'd be a king someday, and it's dopey and worrisome. But now that he's fought and struggled and overcome adversity -- thanks to going on Time Missions, a thing he probably would've never done without Geiz and Tsukuyomi showing up in 2018 -- he's a more capable person than he used to be.

Like, I think it's important to acknowledge that Geiz and Tsukuyomi are helping to turn Sougo into (maybe!) Oma Zi-O, which is the nicely ironic twist at the end of Episode 8.

I talked about Sougo being always a cunning manipulator because he keeps his dopey nature normally, his normal demeanor would stay the same as the one on earlier episodes. There are characters who acted stupid but they're actually capable inside when needed and Sougo is like that. Other than that, I just want to know again, what do you think about this part of my reply?

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This is quite a nice reversal of usual stereotype that someone who's em-pathetic and puppy dog like Sougo is usually portrayed as the one that is easily manipulated, and that someone morally questionable like Geiz is portrayed as the one that is more sensible and mature. But for this series, it's not only that Sougo's kindness isn't weakness, but it's Geiz who is the one easily manipulated (by Sougo here) exactly due to his black and white mentality. Being someone fueled by hate and pragmatism can have them being easily manipulated too, not only the one who is empathetic and kind. Unfortunately, this competence of Sougo would convince Geiz more that he's a threat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 9 - ?GENM MASTER 2016?

Much like last episode took the Hero?s Journey part of a Kamen Rider series ? the whole Making Friends and Finding Collectibles part ? and turned it towards an intensely foreboding future, this one starts to look at the downside of boundless enthusiasm and limitless empathy. Sougo can?t conceive of anyone having the power and authority of a king, but not using it to make everyone?s lives better. It literally doesn?t occur to him. The fact that people could be hurt by it, or that the person in charge could choose to hurt people? that?s the most absurd thing in this story to Sougo.

It's not quite insane for But Maybe They Meant Well move, it happened a lot in various media fandoms. It'd be quite 'normal' instead of insane lol. Though for sure Sougo's too sweet to see the bad in people, as he's nice to the likes of Geiz (who wants to kill him) and Woz (who wants to turn him into Ohma Zi-O), but the ones who pull But Maybe They Meant Well isn't necessarily about can't seeing the bad in people, but relating to those characters and project themselves onto them, seeking moral approval for both those toxic chars and themselves, actually should admit both of those are morally imperfect and deserving of criticisms.

Regarding Geiz here, not talking about how, like previously, Geiz continues to be Sougo's bitch? (of course unfortunately, this'd strengthen his feud by just Sougo overwhelming him). Geiz just constantly looks for excuse to kill Sougo of which it'd be strengthened if Sougo wants to join Kuroto. Sougo doesn't just defeat Geiz, he dominates him to the point where he uses one of Geiz's kicks to spin his belt for his transformation rather than bothering to do it himself, knees Geiz in the throat, and lets Geiz pound on him a bit in Build Armor while not reacting to a single punch just to show off how futile his efforts are, staying perfectly calm all the while and if anything only sounding disappointed in Geiz for being such a fool.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Which makes him the perfect person for Sougo to study under. Sougo needs to see what not to do, and Kuroto is the most blatant What Not To Do character in maybe all of Heisei. Working alongside a Bad Despot, even briefly, is a way for Sougo to understand where he might go wrong, where he could lose the empathy that he thinks could be what keeps him from becoming Oma Zi-O.

And in this story, Kuroto killed Masamune, who was the actual main antagonist in Ex-Aid. By the surface there he's more threatening. Otherwise it's good that Kuroto is acknowledged as a What Not To Do character as he's technically the most contributing among the heroes group in Ex-Aid, but that's due to his genius (of which gave him god complex) and that someone's who is a toku scientist can contribute the most in any role they occupy. But Kuroto was a case of a bad guy fighting another bad guy for retribution thus had mutual goals with the heroes. Like how Woz currently occupy that role in Zi-O now albeit Woz is significantly less atrocious. For Sougo's plan, I guess the people being hurt in meantime doesn't necessarily happen, as you said Sougo learns to know what not to do. You aren't automatically being bad or harming others just because you join a less morally sound group or job. Of which this is a mistake to immediately judge a person of certain group as bad merely due to being a member there (their actions are the one that'd count).

Other than Kuroto, the OOO tribute though, it acted as if Eiji returns to his family and becoming politician, but the context is quite ignored that his parents bailed him out of Africa while leaving everyone else to die, as well as his siblings manipulating his story as a tragic figure that escaped by luck (not by money), and exploiting his pain to win sympathy from voters. Without OOO this treats as if Eiji is fine and can return back to his family or helping people using his power (as politician here), ignoring that the one that can made him more happy again, his room to heal and made him use his power to reach out and help people, are the people around him, Ankh, Hina, Date, Goto, Satonaka. Like him being worried and cared about as well as being told to let others help him. It's also not really explained that why Hina designs for Kuroto.

[Sh Ranger]

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Sougo doesn't just defeat Geiz, he dominates him to the point where he uses one of Geiz's kicks to spin his belt for his transformation rather than bothering to do it himself, knees Geiz in the throat, and lets Geiz pound on him a bit in Build Armor while not reacting to a single punch just to show off how futile his efforts are, staying perfectly calm all the while and if anything only sounding disappointed in Geiz for being such a fool.

Sougo using Geiz's kick to rotate the Driver was a bad*ss move for sure! I thought that was an awesome moment showing how Sougo was totally in control of the situation using his talent as a manipulator and Geiz was once more playing to his tune, unable to stop him. Even with Geiz's superior fighting experience, Zi-O beat him like it was nothing. After a brief display in the Wizard arc, this is the first big dangerous omen where you can fully see his potential as the future Oma Zi-O coming to the surface in a sudden twist. I feel like how Zi-O's fights were kind of generic until now did a lot to make this genuinely shocking to watch!

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

I think my main highlight was Woz telling Kuroto that he?ll make ?great fertiliser? for Sougo?s ascension.

It was good! I don't think the timing necessarily lines up to say its an influence, considering how early the pre-production on Zi-O might've started, but Woz comes off very Ebony Maw from Avengers: Infinity War in this episode... and a lot of earlier episodes, now that I think about it? He's a grandiose, regal hype-man, and it's a cool gimmick.

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Originally Posted by DreamSword

Heck, I feel like "matters of perspective" is one of the major themes that the show is going for in general, so if nothing else it was nice to see it be brought to the forefront.

I think it's also helping Tsukuyomi understand that people can spin historical facts anyway they want when it comes to discerning motivations, so it's best to go to do your own research, if you can. It's the thing that makes her trust her own opinions about Sougo, rather than follow Geiz'z interpretation of recent events (i.e. getting his ass completely and utterly kicked).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

This is quite a nice reversal of usual stereotype that someone who's em-pathetic and puppy dog like Sougo is usually portrayed as the one that is easily manipulated, and that someone morally questionable like Geiz is portrayed as the one that is more sensible and mature. But for this series, it's not only that Sougo's kindness isn't weakness, but it's Geiz who is the one easily manipulated (by Sougo here) exactly due to his black and white mentality. Being someone fueled by hate and pragmatism can have them being easily manipulated too, not only the one who is empathetic and kind. Unfortunately, this competence of Sougo would convince Geiz more that he's a threat.

I agree!

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Other than Kuroto, the OOO tribute though, it acted as if Eiji returns to his family and becoming politician, but the context is quite ignored that his parents bailed him out of Africa while leaving everyone else to die, as well as his siblings manipulating his story as a tragic figure that escaped by luck (not by money), and exploiting his pain to win sympathy from voters. Without OOO this treats as if Eiji is fine and can return back to his family or helping people using his power (as politician here), ignoring that the one that can made him more happy again, his room to heal and made him use his power to reach out and help people, are the people around him, Ankh, Hina, Date, Goto, Satonaka. Like him being worried and cared about as well as being told to let others help him. It's also not really explained that why Hina designs for Kuroto.

I definitely don't love it, but this show has pretty definitively stated that, even without the emotional healing and psychological support of their Kamen Rider story arcs, they end up becoming the people they're meant to be. Sento and Banjou find each other anyway, Gentarou becomes a teacher, Emu becomes a pediatrician, etc. In this case, Eiji still finds a way to be a hero to people who need a helping hand.

[Switchblade]

I definitely underestimated how much harder it would be to talk about this show without rewatching it. It is definitely harder to come up with a lot of insights when you're relying not on fresh observations but on "I watched this, like, three years ago from an increasingly bad faith perspective" memories.

So what I remember most about this arc was that I tended to consider this my least favorite tribute episode. Not for Kuroto; it's hard to hate on more Kuroto content. No, it was Eiji. This felt like the biggest departure for a returning character to date: laundry detective Takumi still felt like Takumi, but they changed so much about Eiji that it almost seemed like they'd just brought on Shu Watanabe to play a different character. Not sure how accurate that impression would still be on a rewatch, but it's what I walked away from these episode with back in the day and I wasn't a fan. I think this was around the point where I was starting to wonder if Decade's approach wasn't a better way of handling an anniversary show (it wasn't, for the record).

As for what I remember from the show's main cast, I'm not sure where I landed on Sougo at the time. Looking at some old posts it seems that I was getting frustrated with what felt like inconsistency on whether he was supposed to be learning anything from these experiences or if it was all bouncing off of his head like a Faiz Axel.

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by Switchblade

I definitely underestimated how much harder it would be to talk about this show without rewatching it. It is definitely harder to come up with a lot of insights when you're relying not on fresh observations but on "I watched this, like, three years ago from an increasingly bad faith perspective" memories.

I am the same way, but up to and including things I watched three days ago. Folks bring up stuff from Episode 9, and I'm like, was that the Build one? Very hard to keep these details straight after only a few days, so I can't imagine how hard it would be to remember details for (honestly) a fairly unexceptional story. I mean, I enjoyed it, but it's not some huge achievement or catastrophic failure.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 10 - ?HAWK, TIGER, AND GRASSHOPPER 2010?

I wouldn?t say it squanders the intriguing character work of the previous episode, because Sougo?s explanations have such specificity and flavor to them that it?s hard to call this chapter a failure. His definition of Good Despot as someone who?s, like, an elected king (ridiculous!) is a little bit more reasonable than some warlord who everyone likes. He?s talking about the Magna Carta, but for Kamen Riders who control time and space. The idea that he?ll know he?s being a good person as long as he can take criticism and guidance is a pretty neat one. It?s a way of talking about history as something that doesn?t have a static value, but becomes good or bad based on people?s insights. That?s a nicely thematic way of framing things for Sougo.

The answer Sougo got from this one seems to be rooted on Sougo's moral compass to decide what makes a Good Despot, as a king position is a king position regardless of their alignment. That he'd view someone being worthy of king or not based on other people's evaulation of them compared to Kuroto forcing everyone to bow after him, and at ep. 9 people were protesting against Kuroto anyway. Ergo.... actually sometimes you have to.. care about what other people think of you, contrary to popular belief of insisting someone to not care about those.

Sougo and Junichiro didn't directly discuss about this but, I guess Junichiro's explanations of Nobunaga explains where Sougo had that view come from, as well as Junichiro teaching Tsukuyomi that as well. The direction below aside, despite that he only knew the main trio as normal teenagers, Junichiro can act as an unintended guide/key against the main trio's problems here. Though personally I don't believe in the perspective evaluation of someone, like, that can be easily abused to elevate people as horrible as Kuroto here (not used for Kuroto here, but another villains as bad as him or worse).... and that is quite dodged by how there's always some exceptions from perspective view here (for justified reasons, but it questions the validity of that view) like how Kuroto isn't subjected to that, like how Kuroto may be good in someone's eyes or such, other than Sougo thinking others evaluate him as bad king without knowing he's actually one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Sougo commits a whole bunch of terrible acts in the past two episodes ? injuring Geiz, assisting a man who is turning innocents into monsters, imprisoning dissenters ? and yet he keeps assuring his friends that he hasn?t done anything wrong yet. HE HAS! HE COMPLETELY HAS! We?re well past some hypothetical moment where Sougo could possibly maybe do horrible things in pursuit of his goals. He did them! Last episode! And he doesn?t really seem to think they?re worth more than a Mea Culpa! We don?t get some huge realization that he?s in over his head, or a stern rebuke from any of the other/actual good guys in the story. He?s just like Changed My Mind, and smiles his way through everyone?s incredulity.

For injuring Geiz... that seems to be just the standard rivalry between primary and secondary Riders, like Ryuki fighting Knight. And I don't hear often that either the primary or secondary Riders are seen as bad for said feud, though frequently the secondary Riders can harm the primary ones due to their anti-heroic traits clashing. And for the "assisting a man who is turning innocents into monsters", this is quite a common generalization against someone who is a member of a bad group/organization/etc., association fallacy, of which the opposite examples are assuming anyone who had a job that is seen as noble (like being cop, soldier, doctor, teacher, etc.) as inherently heroic and noble, when there can be wolf in sheep's clothing. By this I think someone shouldn't be judged by occupation alone of them being good or bad, merely joining them doesn't mean they'd assist the group overall, I mean just by existing and standing around him? Existing around him won't turn people into monsters. For the imprisoning dissenters part, I guess that's done to keep the masquerade going, it's something like what Kiriya did in Ex-Aid after his revival (he whispered to Emu albeit before returning, while Sougo did apologize later).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

And that incredulity is frustratingly short-lived, especially in Tsukuyomi and Geiz. They?re both acutely aware of Sougo?s possibly villainous future, but they seem to think this brief moment of adjacent villainy was some weird bump in the road? while we?ve been told from Episode 1 that it?s the path they?re most afraid he?ll take. I don?t ? for a single second ? understand why this wouldn?t be the breaking point for the two of them. I get why Sougo would behave the way he does, mostly, but I don?t understand why Tsukuyomi and Geiz would think he?s worthy of another chance.

Actually I'd assure that Tsukuyomi's faith in Sougo isn't limitless. But regarding Geiz, where did you get the fact that he gave Sougo a second chance? Well Geiz unawaringly becoming softer with Sougo, but that caused him to take a step to distance himself from others that he's leaving Junichiro's house as well as vowing to hate Sougo and deny his softer feelings inside.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It makes for an episode that has a few really fantastic scenes (Sougo?s speech at the end to Kuroto; Sougo excitedly running to meet Geiz so Geiz can kill him; Hina using her super-strength multiple times, just for me), but makes its characters view really big moments as small, insignificant blips. I liked the way it expanded Sougo?s character, but I wish it didn?t come at the expense of the Time Orphans? believability.

Still not enough utilized, Hina's super-strength. Like the attacks from actual monsters (the time when Sougo bind Eiji) or Kuroto's abuse towards her before.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O COMPLEMENTATION PROJECT EPISODE 10.5 - ?MOURI VS SHIMOYAMA?

This one basically goes It Was A Guest-Writer, and just throws that dude under the bus. I was, weirdly, kinder to the last two episodes than the cast and crew of this .5 episode? I thought it had some interesting moves for Sougo?s character, with a troubling lack of repercussions, but this short starts with Sougo going Why Did I Do Any Of That. That is? man! Cold blooded!

Still this explains about how a different writer would screw up things, and personally if there's a guest writer that got a characterization wrong, I'd blame those writers more instead of bashing the characters due to acting that way. And for this explanations, I don't know if they deliberately made the show worse for comedy material here or that this outtake is made independently from the show? B̶u̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶r̶i̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶l̶u̶n̶a̶t̶i̶c̶ ̶t̶e̶e̶n̶a̶g̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶'̶d̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶l̶i̶n̶e̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶d̶e̶c̶i̶s̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶,̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶w̶a̶r̶l̶o̶r̶d̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶u̶g̶g̶e̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶o̶m̶b̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶T̶o̶e̶i̶ ̶H̶Q̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶d̶e̶c̶i̶s̶i̶o̶n̶s̶.̶

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Originally Posted by DreamSword

While I agree that Nobunaga probably isn't the best example to use, I feel like they got the core message across decently enough: The hero of one story is the villain of another and vise versa. That said, similar arguments have been made for alot of other big figures both before and since(just look at leadership positions in general). Heck, I feel like "matters of perspective" is one of the major themes that the show is going for in general, so if nothing else it was nice to see it be brought to the forefront.

It may be going against the flow, but I never considered "matters of perspective" a reliable source to judge someone's morality. It can be heavily skewed for varying reasons; There are many villainous beings that got glorified using "matters of perspective" argument to treat them as completely innocent and shifting the blame to anyone else. The thing is, the concept of (and a serious one) self-righteousness is outright forgotten here, those rule out the possibility that they are what has gone wrong, yet those words coming from the likes of those are treated as gospel.

There's also how the villains (or the relatively worse ones) can be easily those who judge others instead of said "hero of one story/villain of another", when they are so biased; either them being helped by them (even inadvertently, or worse being influenced into thinking they're good) and deliberately ignoring the bad things they do to others, or just being petty af and demonize others just for being more successful or more happy or such, or doing that out of a slander. Otherwise KR likely glorifies Nobunaga too much, as he had been treated like this on Ghost too before.

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

The answer Sougo got from this one seems to be rooted on Sougo's moral compass to decide what makes a Good Despot, as a king position is a king position regardless of their alignment. That he'd view someone being worthy of king or not based on other people's evaulation of them compared to Kuroto forcing everyone to bow after him, and at ep. 9 people were protesting against Kuroto anyway. Ergo.... actually sometimes you have to.. care about what other people think of you, contrary to popular belief of insisting someone to not care about those.

Sure, but it's also... I mean, just like with Sougo taking an awful long time to realize that Kuroto is a maniacal supervillain (maybe if Hina'd finished that zombie gear, Sougo'd've picked up on it), it kind of doesn't occur to Sougo that people might not want to be ruled. It's one of his blindspots, this belief that he's a good person, and he wants to be king, therefore good people usually become kings, and everyone likes good people. There's a logical leap there that is super-specific to Sougo's worldview.

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

For injuring Geiz... that seems to be just the standard rivalry between primary and secondary Riders, like Ryuki fighting Knight.

But, by that comparison, Geiz would be Ryuki and Sougo would be Ren. The problem is, Ren is a gigantic asshole. If this show wanted to move Sougo into being a gigantic asshole... I mean, I'd dislike it, but it would make parts of this story easier to follow. They didn't, though. They made him a sweet boy who beat the crap out of what he considers a good friend.

And not even for, like, a ruse or anything. Sougo wasn't undercover, or planning on taking Kuroto down from within. It's not until midway through Episode 10 where he decides to stand against Kuroto. When Sougo's fighting Geiz, the argument is You Are Helping A Villain versus Okay. That doesn't exactly paint Sougo in the best light?

[AkibaSilver]

So, Wizard arc - yes, I know I'm late, I was busy living in the outside world for the weekend.

Wizard was my first ever Rider show, so I have a lot of love for it. While the specifics are a little wonky in my memory, the themes of the show, about holding onto hope, and if you can't maybe someone else can help you out of the Darkness, they mean a lot. So what is Another Wizard? A guy who held out hope that eventually, he'd be noticed. His hard work would pay off, and he'd get his reward, and all would be well. And that hope backfires, drives him to become a monster. Too much hope leads to crushing disappointment. Plus, even without all that thematic parallel I can draw, it's a good hook anyway? Nice guy becomes a monster when rejected, what a thing that never happens in real life.

Nitoh's cameo is minor, sure, and doesn't add much, but I'm glad to see him for the first time since the Wizard/Gaim movie I think? Secondary Riders often feel lost in the shuffle once their show ends, and while him and Geiz probably wouldn't have much to bond over (his soultion to the Zi-O crisis would be 'Don't think about it too hard', then mayo covered chicken at Junchiro's), I appreciate how he doesn't just roll over and give the new protag the watch.

And yeah, it's just all round a solid episode! Direction is good, plot is solid, the old bed fakeout is brilliant, and the twist it puts on Sougo's character - how yes, he's kind and empathic but also scarily good at playing people without even properly realising it - I'm a sucker for it all. Plus plus, Another Wizard is A tier design. The "Add shouldrpads" Rider armors aren't my favourites, but the bulkier madcap ones go hard, and Wizard Armour is Geiz's finest. Plus, Geiz's method of wandering round till he finds the problem is the most Wizard thing you can do. I'm so glad a series that means so much to me ended up as it did, ya know?

Oh yeah the episode everyone else is talking about... Uhh, yeah, Sougo decided to go become Kuroto's understudy is on the less believable end of things, but on the other hand, Kuroto. I have a vague meta-reading that Sougo is just acting like the Kuroto fans from Ex-Aid time, not caring about his evil deeds because he seems cool, but I also admit that's contrived as heck. Away from Sougo making very questionable choices, I appreciate them again mixing together Heisei stuff as Kuroto is a perfect return, Eiji is pleasant to see back, and OOO Armour also looks sick. Don't remember many of the details on this one.

[Daikaijuman54]

You know, the craziest thing about this episode is that I could understand what they were going for with Sougo, but their explanations and justifications just didn't work.

Now Sougo, joining King Kuroto to see how he rules does feel like something he'd do, but the episode's way of doing it just doesn't work, nor does it feel like something Sougo would do, knowing geiz is breathing down his neck. The .5 Episode really does fit the main issue with this episode.

But other than that, the OOO tribute was actually something I only grew to appreciate after watching OOO. At first, I thought "wait, I thought Eiji was a hobo," so I was confused on what exactly this tribute was going for. But some time after Zi-O, I watched OOO (which is definitely one of my favorite Rider Seasons), and when I got to Eiji's backstory, I thought "so all that stuff in Zi-O was accurate? That's neat!" and I ended up looking back on this arc, loving it way more than when I first saw it. That, and I can't say no to our favorite God.

Once more, I am absolutely digging the Rider Armors, and OOO is another one I found myself enjoying. It resembles Super TaToBa moreso than Another OOO, and instead of adding the Core Medals onto the design, it carries features of the three animals used for TaToBa, and finally, the big circle on his chest is, of all things, the Katakana "Taka, Tora, Batta," which I just find hilarious.

Also, as you've witnessed, this is where the Woz Happy Birthday image comes from. Woz is this series best character for me, no question, every moment he's on screen is a joy to behold, and his speeches are the best part about the Armor Times.

[Name]

Man... Everyone's got a whole lot of words for this episode. I'll roll with this: Eiji chilling in jail with a smile is very Eiji.