[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER KABUTO - EPISODE 20

One of the big joys of going back to a show you've forgotten so much about is whenever you get to feel pleasantly surprised by something you had been remembering incorrectly for so long. Case in point, I was under the impression Kabuto held back a lot more on Tsurugi than it does.

I had it my head he spent a good while as just some comically obnoxious jerk before the scripts start taking him places and adding depth to him, but uh... that's pretty much all here in this one already? Or at least a lot more than I expected. I even worded my post on the last episode pretty ambiguously when it came to what exactly makes him a favorite character of mine, thinking I might be jumping the gun on developments that could be dozens of episodes away. But no, I only had to wait one episode to tell everyone the basics of why Tsurugi is great, and I'm happy to see so much agreement already pouring in from everyone.

(Oh, and as a quick side note: of course we're calling Tsurugi that when it literally means "sword" and he's the guy with the sword; the simplicity makes it easy to remember! Although between him and Daisuke, I'm now realizing there's a weird split in this show between characters who nobody calls by their family names and ones who nobody ever refers to by their given names. Like, when's the last time you ever saw somebody talking about Souji or Arata? Never, right?)

Anyway, I'd break what makes Tsurugi great down into three major points, and none of them have to do with his construction as a foil to Tendou. The more the series pushes him away from that concept, the better it does for him as an individual, naturally. That being said, I will take this time to give credit to just how much Tsurugi in particular went to the extreme ends of that concept. The utter lack of subtlety, even giving him his own egocentric catchphrase derived from his name's meaning, I don't mind it, honestly. For a guy who wants to stand at the top in everything he does, Tsurugi certainly represents a sort of pinnacle for rival Riders who act as foils to Tendou. It would've worn out its welcome had that been all there was to him, but thankfully, that's not the case.

Instead, we've got a character who, first of all, has a surprising capacity for honestly admitting his own faults. Not that he's even that great at it, mind you, but he's certainly better at it than most people in this series; the idea that Tsurugi would genuinely be willing to put in the work to be a better person, and is ultimately kept from doing so more from simple ignorance than from anything actively malicious, I find it does wonders to keep him endearing. Stemming right out of that, the second thing is that his botched attempts to exist among the common people are just plain funny. Watching him constantly bumble his way through daily life the way only a rich fool could, it's hard not to fall in love with it after a while. The poor guy is just trying so hard, you know?

The other big thing is that the show instantly takes his vendetta against the Worms, and makes it far more intriguing than it otherwise would be by having the cruel twist that Tsurugi is one of the monsters he's fighting. Dead sister or no, a guy who goes around single-mindedly pursuing revenge could easily come off cold and unlikable, but when you throw in a dramatically ironic fate like this, I think that gets the viewer to feel for them in more complex ways. It's also a sort of throwback to the classic trope of the Rider being a monster, which I always love, but admittedly, it's probably incidental in this case. Tsurugi's particular setup is pretty clearly more of a natural outgrowth of the premise of the Worms as shapeshifting imposters than anything. Still great stuff, though, and also by far the thing I was most shocked to see revealed this early on! For whatever reason, I didn't think the viewer gets more than minor hints about this for a while. Perhaps I was mixing Tsurugi up with a certain ashen wolf monster this whole time?

Who knows, but at any rate, I'm happy to have Tsurugi and all his crazy baggage here again. The episode built around all this is, once again, notably simplistic, but never a drag or anything. There's a bit of a running gag in this one where Kagami is constantly doing the worst job feigning ignorance when the subject of those mysterious phantom thieves comes up, and if I could single anything out from that side of the plot I want to people to know about, it's that for sure. Just scene after scene of Kagami being a sweaty, nervous wreck who seems one good question away from cracking like an egg at any given moment. It's hilarious, while also highlighting the sort of childlike earnestness Kagami has that ultimately makes him Kabuto's definitive hero, even if he's not always the best at it. But hey, I'm sure he'll get there one day, right?

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I mean, that's the scene where I'm like Oh No I Really Like Tsurugi. Just that childlike smile, the way he downplays an accident that injured several people and got him detained by the police as Pobody's Nerfect, wacky shenanigans... but he's genuinely grateful to Jiiya for coming to get him, and bashful about the slight hiccup of causing a vehicular collision. Like, it felt like the show was going to keep up Tsurugi's dismissive attitude, but he honestly cares for his dedicated manservant? He values Jiiya's opinion? And wants Jiiya to be proud of him? It's very sweet, in an unexpected way.

(Also, I need to mention that the show gave Tsurugi the same haircut as Tendou, and that makes me laugh.)

(Also also, we're at Episode 20 and Kagami officially needs a haircut.)

(Also also also, absolutely zero screentime for Hiyori in this one, which cold suuuuuucccccckkkks.)

(Also also also also, Merry Christmas, everybody. I asked Santa to give you all something nice, but he said only Tendou deserved any gifts this year. I tried!)

[LeviathanBlossom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

(Also also also also, Merry Christmas, everybody. I asked Santa to give you all something nice, but he said only Tendou deserved any gifts this year. I tried!)

Orrrrrr..... we have been given the gift that is Tendo - a gift that just keeps on giving

Seriously, though, merry Christmas and happy all the holidays~

[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

(Also also also also, Merry Christmas, everybody. I asked Santa to give you all something nice, but he said only Tendou deserved any gifts this year. I tried!)

I like to think that Tendou would insist that he could deliver gifts to every child on Earth in one night better than Santa can. He would refuse to, of course, because it would be far too altruistic for him. Then he’d probably do it anyway, but insist that it was only to prove a point.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeviathanBlossom

Orrrrrr..... we have been given the gift that is Tendo - a gift that just keeps on giving

Seriously, though, merry Christmas and happy all the holidays~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

I like to think that Tendou would insist that he could deliver gifts to every child on Earth in one night better than Santa can. He would refuse to, of course, because it would be far too altruistic for him. Then he’d probably do it anyway, but insist that it was only to prove a point.

"Look, everyone! It's Santa Tendou! And he's giving everyone... a Playstation SIX?!"

[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

"Look, everyone! It's Santa Tendou! And he's giving everyone... a Playstation SIX?!"

It’s like the PS5, but made of tofu.

[Sh Ranger]

Sounds like a good competitor for Kusaka's XBox 913 X.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Sure, but that's not happening here. Does it happen sometimes for other series? Yeah, but that's just people processing art differently. Folks are free to have problematic faves or miss the point entirely. It may not be a perspective I share, but it doesn't hurt me if they have it.

The former is completely right, yes, you can have problematic fave. But for the latter no, this doesn't mean you can lie and bend what they are like in the canon story and make saints out of them. Like, for instance, if they’re doing horrible and violent things in story they’re still a horrible person, until they correct their behavior, doesn’t matter if someone’s misguided. For example Frollo (Disney version) is an interesting villain, but he's a horrible people, and his actions aren't justified or excusable.

Which people, not in few amount for other series, overlook, justify and rationalize (something like murder of so many innocent people being justified). One of the reasons they do that is because they want their favourite morally ambiguous or fully morally bankrupt character to gain social and moral approval from others, likely because they personally relate with their bad traits, but it's used in bad way; they project themselves onto those character, so they seek and feel entitled for moral approval for both those characters and themselves. Therefore, if those wrong acts are viewed as right and justificable, they can sweep their behavior under the rug and make believe it's perfectly fine. They can continue their bad behavior and not think anything about it. Some people are so battered that they will support the bad behavior and do everything possible (and defending those kind of character in fiction is one of the ways) to make believe it's not happening and sweep it under the rug. This is a twisted view and logic. They think that if you have a valid-enough reason, it’s automatically okay. Those audiences actually should be frank and admit that the morally ambiguous or bankrupt characters they defend and themselves are morally imperfect and deserving of criticisms.

To be flawed is human after all, (and non-toxic flaws too like morally upstanding characters such as Eiji with his psychological trauma), most good characters have them and they're interesting that way, but
don't overlook those flaws, better admit them. Especially if the character is morally ambiguous or outright bankrupt, it's messed up to overlook the horrible deed ones coming from those.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

If I was dragged all over town for a full day to watch two evenly-matched dudes fail to best each other... yeah, I think Hiyori is maybe underselling how bored she must feel.

I was refering to the part where Hiyori remarked that both are high and mighty type, which is at the very beginning of Tendou and Tsurugi's clash. So for this one "two evenly-matched dudes fail to best each other" hasn't occured yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER KABUTO - EPISODE 20

Kabuto is a show about the value of humility.

It’s a little weird that that’s such a recurring theme, considering, y’know… Tendou. He’s the least humble Rider I’ve ever seen. He’s a man who believes the world revolves around him, who excels at everything he puts his mind to. Systems, organizations, logic, even physics: they all bend to his desires. He will tell complete strangers that he’s destined to rule over everything.

And he’s not the only one! Every single Rider so far (save Kagami, if he’s even worth counting) has been someone convinced of their own greatness, secure in the knowledge that they, and they alone, are worthy of attention and acclaim. They’re also egotists, even the ones who preach the harmony of teamwork. They’re all aspects of Tendou, taking as given that they’re the hero of the story.

Yeah, Tendou is the least humble among the lead Riders (and later coming from same writer; Shoji Yonemura). He's far from the nicest Rider in the series, but he's anything but villainous. Kagami is worth counting btw, and... probably even he's not completely free from this, like how in ep. 2, he wanted Tendou to work for ZECT as someone he can boss around, and likely the part where he boasts about beating Worms alone (though probably, at worst, he's the type that won't look down to others unlike the other Riders). The Riders here except Kagami are not mere egoists, but with how they believe the world revolves around them and they want the world to bend to his desires; they're Ubermensch (and unstoppable ones at that), and that contrasts typical Rider series who were made to be relatable as a drama at its core, where they're (mostly) normal humans that put on belts to gain superpowers, adhere to the laws of physics (mostly), still have visible physical flaws no matter how much makeup you put on the actors, and that becoming an armored warrior like OOO or Gaim seems like a more achievable goal (relatively speaking) than, say, becoming a superpowered alien/wizard monstrosity like in for example, battle animes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The second step is learning that your pain isn’t the only pain in the world. Tendou arrives at the police station to punch Tsurugi in the face, a thrilling moment of rage from the usually cool Tendou. (He even gives Sasword this little Dudes Don’t Lose Their Cool speech in the beginning! And then he decks Tsurugi once Juka’s injured! So hypocritical, and so great!) It’s a connection between the two characters, one rooted in shared backgrounds. Seeing the anger in Tendou reminds Tsurugi of his own anger at the Worm who killed his sister. He gets exactly how protective Tendou can be, because he’s dedicated his life to avenging his sister. It’s a realization for Tsurugi, that he doesn’t have a monopoly on devotion to a sibling. His pain and commitment isn’t unique.

That's what contrasts Tsurugi to Tendou. Tendou can sometimes see what's going on, Kamishiro doesn't. He doesn't realize he's being overbearing until he sees how much Jiiya, is apologizing for him. He doesn't realize that he hurt people in a car crash because of his irresponsibility until Tendou explains to him that his sister was hurt in the crash. Having had a sister who was killed by a Worm, Kamishiro sympathizes and apologizes. And for Jiiya, while he doesn't seem to be as bad in elitism as Tsurugi, this is what I'd fear for Juka at first. Juka being blind to Tendou's action, blindly defending those and sees everyone else as wrong just because they're against Tendou. But she's not, when Tendou was being a prick to Kagami, Juka called him out. While in contrast, Jiiya just begs for others to forgive Tsurugi unconditionally, without actual regard on how bad Tsurugi's action can be, but asks for forgiveness for Tsurugi anyway just because he's Tsurugi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Meanwhile, we’ve also got the Phantom Thief Shadow part of the episode. (Not “Phantom Shadow Thief”, which is what I thought she was/they were called last episode. If I’d remembered the name right, I could’ve applauded the use of Shadow as a clue. Clever!) The Phantom Thief Shadow plot was very fun in construction, even if it wasn’t plumbing the same depths as the Tsurugi story. I mean, it did touch a little bit on the idea of Learning Humility, with Kagami getting super jazzed about being a part of PTS as some cool new exclusive non-Tendou club, only for Misaki to go Of Course Tendou’s Already In This Club. Kagami’s face falls so quickly as he realizes that Tendou’s going to be the star of this show, too. But he perks up, relenting to Misaki’s logic that, hey, it couldn’t hurt to have a Kamen Rider in the group if you’re going to fight Worms. It’s a beat that ties into the larger idea of recognizing your limitations, and allowing for someone with a higher level of skill to take the lead.

The rest of the plot is pretty fun, if not much more than a well-told action-adventure story. Not that that’s a criticism! I like heist stories, and while this is a little lean on twists and turns (like last episode, there’s just not enough room to make it any more complex), it’s a fun story. I like seeing characters like Misaki contribute to a main plot, and the use of a more subdued Kageyama (he seems actually hurt that Misaki might be a criminal) adds some stakes without being too heavy. (Probably could’ve done without that Goro/Kagami’s Dad scene, if we’re talking about cutting stuff. Could’ve been handled in one line from Kageyama to Kagami!) Just a fun little story about tricks and theft, as you’d expect from a superhero show.

Oh well, Kabuto being Kabuto, Tendou would never screw-up and that letting him lead is benefical to complete any mission, but as what I've said in ep. 6, this enforces "might makes right" mindset here of Tendou being allowed in any high position only because of his hypercompetence, that it's a flawed take that being never fail or lose; invincible is enough for anything; if someone's on that position turns out to lack moral decency; regardless of how good they are; strong/skilled person with decent morals but the lack of desire to use that strength/skill to serve others may well make a great sportsman, but will be a lousy leader. Tsurugi, for being a Rider, I think what he did should remind people about how having bad attitude can also lead to bad consequences (instead of just bashing the ideal heroes if they had naivety and thinking that behaving like Kaito is something that should be done and more effective), like Tsurugi engaging in fighting with Tendou as Riders that would just make the Worm run away, causing potentially further harm.

And so you said here you like heist stories... but you've criticized many of those that are alike of this in Rider series, like phase 1 ones. Kageyama is someone that inherits "Perfect Harmony", he seems to be self-righteous concering ZECT, the potential personification of what ZECT HQ Tadokoro worships. If someone in ZECT is a criminal, that can potentially do something bad to ZECT's image.

And, you said you like seeing characters like Misaki contribute to main plot, isn't that, basically, what organizations like ZECT and any of its members doing on a daily basis? But you criticize that as a story about a small group of friends/"friends" trying to stop a series of monster attacks, as a super generic/basic/stock/less-pejorative Kamen Rider setup. Phantom Thief Shadow is a one time method of this, but they always work on stopping threats. Besides, how Worm operates here reminds me of Grongis in Kuuga (but Worms have no actual motives revealed just yet), they attack in their weird and bizzare methods, like going for those with grey pants, or those that going for thugs here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

A QUESTION

We’ve got knife guys and sword guys and even some drum guys
Bow guys and bo guys and phone guns (from Faiz)
What would you reveal
Are your favorite weapons they wield?

Favorite weapon for me would be those that can do more things at once; like something that shoots but also have melee attacks at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurona

And this is why he's my favourite character in the show.

Like, man; it really would take something as weird as Kabuto for me to adore the rich guy who has rich guy as a core part of his personality, but he's an utter disaster of a person who's so, so fun to watch and so uniquely him. He's disastrous even alongside developments like this that make him genuinely likable and he's the performance that stands out the most in the show to me; I'd take a miniseries bringing him back because he's just that fun

For someone who isn't into grimdark things like Faiz series (and those that deconstructs idealism as them being alone in their beliefs in the world, and optimism being crushed and learning to accept that the realities of the world don't match up to their ideals), I know you explained why you like him here, but how's for him if directly compared to other characters of the same type or worse ones, like those in the series you aren't into, or Tendou himself here.

[Kurona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

For someone who isn't into grimdark things like Faiz series (and those that deconstructs idealism as them being alone in their beliefs in the world, and optimism being crushed and learning to accept that the realities of the world don't match up to their ideals), I know you explained why you like him here, but how's for him if directly compared to other characters of the same type or worse ones, like those in the series you aren't into, or Tendou himself here.

I'm not sure I'd say 'grimdark' of Faiz? It's in the general direction of that, but I think I'd more likely use 'dour' or 'moody'. Which is to its credit; it's extremely good at all this, but it's not quite my thing. Though perhaps Fish will be happy to hear that on 555 I've gone from 'dislike' to 'I really respect what it's doing and am very impressed at how well it does it'! That's my christmas present to him, I suppose.

I'm not sure what you mean by "but how's for him if directly compared to other characters of the same type" - I think something was a little lost in translation there - but if you're asking my opinion on the other main riders in the show so far?

- I really liked Yagumura at this point and very much agree with everything Die had to say about him; I love that fantastic balance between "genuine good guy, but too egotistical" that is so uniquely Kabuto.

- Tendou I unfortunately have to say I'm simply not fond of; like I said before, I think the way he's written he walks an extreme tightrope between perfectly likable or perfectly dislikable depending on your tastes, and for me he falls into the latter. A very marmite character.

- Kagami I used to like a lot but I forget why now, hopefully this thread will remind me.

- Daisuke is basically Zolda, and like him he's a popular Inoue character I'm not fond of myself.

- And to agree with I think most the thread at the moment, yes, Kageyama absolutely sucks.


It's the Tsurugi and Yagumura show for me, I'm afraid!

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

The former is completely right, yes, you can have problematic fave. But for the latter no, this doesn't mean you can lie and bend what they are like in the canon story and make saints out of them.

As I've gotten older, I've stopped worrying about how other people respond to art. It's all personal and subjective, and it doesn't affect my ability to enjoy art if someone believes something in opposition to my own views. It's actually sort of neat? Everyone gets to decide what art means to them, even if it's something objectively wrong. The alternative is being a gatekeeper, policing people's opinions, and... naaaaaah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I was refering to the part where Hiyori remarked that both are high and mighty type, which is at the very beginning of Tendou and Tsurugi's clash. So for this one "two evenly-matched dudes fail to best each other" hasn't occured yet.

Sure, but Hiyori's been around Tendou and the various Tendouncies (your Yaguruma, your Kageyama, your Daisuke) to already know that this one's going to be going into extra innings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

While in contrast, Jiiya just begs for others to forgive Tsurugi unconditionally, without actual regard on how bad Tsurugi's action can be, but asks for forgiveness for Tsurugi anyway just because he's Tsurugi.

I think it's just Jiiya being a very permissive guardian? (I know he's a servant, but he's basically Tsurugi's granddad. He even gets called out the same way Tendou quotes his grandmother!) Jiiya definitely coddles Tsurugi, which is obviously not doing great for Tsurugi's humility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

And so you said here you like heist stories... but you've criticized many of those that are alike of this in Rider series, like phase 1 ones.

I mean, I like pizza, but I'm still going to criticize a poorly-made pizza.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

And, you said you like seeing characters like Misaki contribute to main plot, isn't that, basically, what organizations like ZECT and any of its members doing on a daily basis?

I don't know that I'd put Sitting In A Van Handing Out Judgment as anywhere near the same level as A Series Of Robberies That Trap A Worm? Misaki contributing to a plot needs to be more than just being in a shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

But you criticize that as a story about a small group of friends/"friends" trying to stop a series of monster attacks, as a super generic/basic/stock/less-pejorative Kamen Rider setup.

It is! Or was! That was a story about them all just hanging around, waiting to see if they could catch a Worm in the act. Tendou was the one actively investigating things, which was some of the most fun parts of that story.