[Locke]

I haven't finished Den-O but I got about a quarter of the way through and I actually would have preferred the show to slow down or at least be more thoughtful.

Ryou was getting a new form pretty much every other episode, and as each new form was an actual character it was frustrating to see them shoved under the rug as soon as they were introduced.

This was especially true of Rod Form, which proved to be useless as soon as it was included and that stupid gun form that took over just when the awesome that was Axe Form was included.

And no I didn't find the "witty banter" in the cluttered traincar fun.

[henshinzero]

It would've been... It would be better for Fourze to be a dark series like Blade.

I mean wouldn't they have a.... "keep your friends close... and keep your enemies closer".

[MaskedRiderAsakura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Ryuki: Limit Ouja to be a more infrequent character to maximize his appearences, and give him something of a personality. Not soem ham-fisted backstory, but some charrisma, some interesting character trait.

I don't think anything is wrong with Ouja at all. Yeah, when you take Ouja at his absolute core, he's basically just a psychopath with constant urges to kill but that's what makes his character stand out to me. Asakura didn't need to be charismatic, that's what Kitaoka was there for and, as shown, Kitaoka wasn't the type of Rider Kanzaki needed. He needed somebody that would do damage; nothing more, nothing less and that's exactly what Asakura brings to the table.

Remember up to the point he was introduced there were 6 riders and to put it bluntly, in the grand scheme of Kanzaki's plans, they all sucked. Shinji and Tezuka didn't want to fight, Ren wasn't nearly as heartless as he claimed to be, Kitaoka was too caught up in strategizing to do any actual fighting, Jun was too busy screwing around and fanboying over Asakura and Sudo didn't have any real wish and only killed people (Riders included) who got in his way. Even after Ouja's introduction, the only Rider to even come close to Ouja's killing power was Tiger.

And that right there is Ouja's interesting character trait. He's the only Rider capable of doing what needs to be done and it shows: outside of Knight Survive, I don't think he's lost a straight up fight and he's the only Rider with an actual body count (Ren's doesn't count because Odin let him get the kill and he came back anyway, and Satoru only killed Alternative, who wasn't part of the actual war). Ouja didn't have any sort of redeemable traits that could be exploited to get him out of killing everybody. Really he could have faced Odin himself had he not been so obsessed with Kitaoka.

Plus Ouja could be pretty damn funny at certain points.

[Matrixbeast]

But that's still an incredibly basic character. Not even at the core, but altogether.
Ohja's only purpose was the reduce the numbers of the riders. No more. He was a walking plot device.

Character A has no more purpose in the series? Let Ouja kill them. And that's all he did. His character did extend to his obsession with Kitaoka, it was only really brought up around the end.

[MaskedRiderAsakura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Character A has no more purpose in the series? Let Ouja kill them. And that's all he did. His character did extend to his obsession with Kitaoka, it was only really brought up around the end.

In response to the first sentence: of course. That's the whole reason he was given a deck in the first place.

Not only that but outside of killing he served as a moral test for Ryuki and Knight, as practically every other character in the series does. Because Ren lacks the conviction to kill, you could almost say he gathers inspiration from Ouja. He makes note of this saying that perhaps he needs to become like Asakura in order to fulfill his wish. Hell, towards the end of the series Shinji starts taking inspiration from Asakura as well. Not only that but Asakura serves as a point to Shinji that even the lowest form of human being is worth keeping alive, as shown In the story arc where Asakura 'saves' the girl (and the series leaves it ambiguous as to whether Asakura is really as heartless as he's portrayed to be at this point). After all that's what the ideal villain IS: somebody that strengthens the hero's own beliefs. Shinji and Asakura have a very Batman/Joker relationship going on.

And his rivalry with Kitaoka was always there. It was usually just obscured by the odd newbie Rider jumping in and making things more complicated and by the fact that Kitaoka and Asakura fights were always either inconclusive or interrupted. There were more Ouja and Zolda clashes than you give credit for. Whenever it was just the main four though, Ouja and Zolda were ALWAYS getting under each other's skins.

To say Ouja was just thrown in whenever a Rider needed to be killed off is just false. He was literally the standard, and at the same time, the example of what a Rider should and shouldn't be.

[Matrixbeast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaskedRiderAsakura

In response to the first sentence: of course. That's the whole reason he was given a deck in the first place.

But that a good character doesn't make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaskedRiderAsakura

Not only that but outside of killing he served as a moral test for Ryuki and Knight, as practically every other character in the series does. Because Ren lacks the conviction to kill, you could almost say he gathers inspiration from Ouja. He makes note of this saying that perhaps he needs to become like Asakura in order to fulfill his wish. Hell, towards the end of the series Shinji starts taking inspiration from Asakura as well. Not only that but Asakura serves as a point to Shinji that even the lowest form of human being is worth keeping alive, as shown In the story arc where Asakura 'saves' the girl (and the series leaves it ambiguous as to whether Asakura is really as heartless as he's portrayed to be at this point). After all that's what the ideal villain IS: somebody that strengthens the hero's own beliefs.

I don't agree. The ideal villain is a character the hero overcomes. By your definition, Kitaoka was the ideal villain, despite being an antihero. Kitaoka was the one who helped reinforce the Shinji and Ren's ideals, I felt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaskedRiderAsakura

To say Ouja was just thrown in whenever a Rider needed to be killed off is just false. He was literally the standard, and at the same time, the example of what a Rider should and shouldn't be.

How so? It always felt Asakura was less a character and more of a dog on a chain for the writers to let loose. I never saw a form of complexity in his character because every time it seemed he was growing as a character, he'd just laugh in Shinji or Ren's face and spew on about how it was a ruse for his next kill.

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaskedRiderAsakura

In response to the first sentence: of course. That's the whole reason he was given a deck in the first place.

That doesn't make it a good reason.

He was a monster of the week who could talk. That's about it.

Quote:

Not only that but outside of killing he served as a moral test for Ryuki and Knight, as practically every other character in the series does.

He could've been taht and had any kind of personality.

Quote:

Because Ren lacks the conviction to kill, you could almost say he gathers inspiration from Ouja.

No, you really couldn't.

Quote:

He makes note of this saying that perhaps he needs to become like Asakura in order to fulfill his wish.

That's not inspiration. That's Ren struggling over his want to win the game, but his inability to be a murderer.

And it's still not a personality for Ouja.

Quote:

Not only that but Asakura serves as a point to Shinji that even the lowest form of human being is worth keeping alive, as shown In the story arc where Asakura 'saves' the girl

They could've done that and gave him some kind of personality or character.

Quote:

(and the series leaves it ambiguous as to whether Asakura is really as heartless as he's portrayed to be at this point).

It really doesn't. At all. He's just a psycho.

Quote:

After all that's what the ideal villain IS:

No, absolutely not.

That's HALF of an ideal villain. The other half is being a convincing villain. Someone where, even if we don't agree with their motives, we can see that they have motives.

Asakura HAS no motives. Since you compare him to the Joker below, let's roll with that. The Joker is utterly insane, and unpredictable. It's unknown exactly what he'll do everytime he goes on a rampage, if he'll blindly murder or just fuck with everyone. He derives immense pleasure and amusement from the things he does, but also becomes aggressively violent at the drop of a hat. His mood swings are dangerous, bt also endearing. It's hard not to laugh when he tells someone not to speak, asks them a question, then hits them for answering. He's like a cartoon character in a world of regular people, except he's not the bouncy, bright kind. More like the demented kind. Hell, Joker's probably the single worst kind of human being in the world. He's a murderer, a sadist, a bully, a racist, and has done truely revolting things... and yet you still like him and even feel bad for him sometimes. THAT is what an ideal villain is.

Asakura is EXCEEDINGLY predictable and one-track, and is not endearing at all. There's no surprises or intrigue with him. He hurts people, big whoop. he's not funny, he's not scary. He doesn't instill fear or unrest in everyone. He hangs around with the other riders and nobody cares. I still remember that immensely moronic scene where the big four of Ryuki got together and Kitaoka held a vote on wether Shinji was an idiot, to which everyone voted yes, even Ouja. Like he was a regular guy, joking around with his buds. This actually WOULD be reminiscent of Joker-style antics, except everyone else apprently forgot he was an unrepentant killer and acted like he was a normal dude. Even the characters find him utterly boring. There's nothing TO him. He has NO personality. "I want to hurt people" is not a personality.

Quote:

Shinji and Asakura have a very Batman/Joker relationship going on.

Not even close. batman and Joker's relationship is far too complicated to even be compared.

Joker and Batman are damn-near obsessed with eachother, Joker more than Batman. Anytime Joker escapes, Batman shifts all focus on him, and almost everything Joker does, it's to get pointy-ears' attention. He gets depressed or in denial when Batman is presumed dead, and devises huge elaborate schemes to confront him with. And true to form, even THIS is unpredictable to everyone but him. One moment Joker can be trying his hardest to muder Batman, the next he defends him. Batman, on the other hand, only wants Joker jailed. Joker tests Batman so much, more than once Batman has admitted to fantasising about killing Joker. THAT is how much Joker infuriates Batman.

Shinji and Asakura... are practically non existent in comprarrison. Shinji has no real opinion of Asakura, and inconsistently shifts focus on and off him. Asakura barely knows Shinji exists, and doesn't really care. Ren is more of a nemesis to Asakura than Sinji.

Joker tests Batman's will against killing. Asakura tests Shinji's will to stop the fighting. The difference is that Batman's goal is accomplishable.
Shinji's goal, however, is dead on arrival. That's the point. It's pointless to believe that needs to be tested. That's like one guy's goal being to blow up the sun with his thoughts, and another guy hellbent on breaking his concentration, as if the first guy's goal isn't absurd enough.

So even as a foil, Ouja fials.

Quote:

And his rivalry with Kitaoka was always there. It was usually just obscured by the odd newbie Rider jumping in and making things more complicated and by the fact that Kitaoka and Asakura fights were always either inconclusive or interrupted. There were more Ouja and Zolda clashes than you give credit for. Whenever it was just the main four though, Ouja and Zolda were ALWAYS getting under each other's skins.

This is partly true. This was easily the highlight of Ouja's character, and the culmination of this plot thread in the final episode was MASTERFULLY pulled off.

However, you give it FAR too much credit, and this is where my idea of Ouja being MORE infrequent would've helped. Because the rivalry was spread so thin, it seemed like it wasn't as important to the characters. Had teh series been shorter, and Ouja appeared less, these moments would've seemed MORE important.

Quote:

To say Ouja was just thrown in whenever a Rider needed to be killed off is just false.

Maybe, but it's not far off.

Asakura never did anything besides kill people. It may not have been his purpose, but it's what he ultimately ended up doing. I mean, he never even DID anything by himself. Or when he did, it was just running from cops and getting mad. It was clear that they had no idea what to do with him when all of his down time was the same old shit of him running and fuming. Again, since you brought up Joker, when HE is on downtime, it's usually doing something utterly unpredictable, like killing a donut shop owner, or robbing stores for money. Which IS unpredicatble for the Joker, since he's not usually so petty for cash, but money is a humanizing aspect that reinforces that he does still succumb to the problems of normal humans and IS a human, instead of some unrealistic thing. Asakura is not human. He never suffers from human problems. The interesting thing about Joker-like characters is how their superhuman personalities react to human problems. What Joker's hungry or needs money, he steal it, and his character makes this barbaric act amusing or insightful in HOW he does it, something Asakura never does. Asakura does not react. He only acts, and acting does tell us as much as reacting.

Quote:

He was literally the standard, and at the same time, the example of what a Rider should and shouldn't be.

Not even close, and I cannot fathom how you came to this point. Unless you mean riders within the context of Ryuki, but even still...

This is where it becomes really hard to not spoil Ryuki, but this ties in with the entire plot of Ryuki being NONSENSE. The rider battle makes no sense, and the point is never explained. Ryuki has probably the worst main plot of any rider series ever, because it is complete nonsense. Thus, what Ouja represents is hard to pin down, since it's not clear what the fighting accomplished. It gave the winner power, but we don't know how. It gave Yui's brother the ability to save her... but we're not told how or why he couldn't just do it himself. If he created the game, why didn't he use that power to save her instead of making some elaborate nonsense?

[schlagwerk]

Okay I've only seen half of Wizard, and am up to the 40's in W. I wouldn't change a thing about W, but going with a lot of discussion about Wizard I have an idea.

Haruto started out as a finished hero. He didn't change much over the series (outside of power ups) and his beliefs were pretty well unshakable. If they would've given him an arch closer to the beginning or early-middle where he thinks he is Hope incarnate and has to deal with losing a person or two to despair, having to put down the resultant Phantom, having to struggle with rising doubt while controlling Dragon, and eventually hardening his beliefs THEN and becoming unshakable enough to fully control Dragon.
Of course, it would be a lot more anime cliches, but hell.. it would've given more of a sense of progression in the series.
Within the first 10 episodes of Wizard, I thought that's where the series was gonna go.. NOOOOOPE.

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by schlagwerk

Of course, it would be a lot more anime cliches, but hell.. it would've given more of a sense of progression in the series.

Cliche isn't inherently bad. Being cliche is okay, as long as you do it well. Only when it's done out of laziness or half-hearted does it stand out.

[henshinzero]

If they rewritten Wizard, Haruto would've became the Dragon Phantom somehow. Perhaps dealing with his former friend's injury and his girlfriend blaming him for the accident.

As for Beast... not much purpose for him since that whole mayonnaise thing and with his grandma. He would've had a bike of his own.

Wizard would've had more riders. Like 8.

The white wizard well... he would've had another name too. Like Arch-Mage, since he is one with all the great magic. Wiseman would've been the most lethal villain like Maki/Dino Greeed from OOO.