[GrandComplete]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku;82732 a9

To get one particular nitpick aside, the dream. As far as this episode is concerned, it's the 'explanation' for why Sougo wants to be a king. It's... not really? Why wouldn't he have just assumed it was only a dream? And even if he decided to believe it at face value for whatever reason, it still makes no sense and doesn't go towards explaining anything about the way he acts in episode 1 and so on.

It not just the fact he has this dream that tells him he going to become king. It's the fact that he keeps having the dream over and over again. The dreams only stopped when he was at 9 years old was convinced to become king.

But yeah this episode was great. It felt like real turning point in the show Sougo finally sees for himself Ohma ZI-O and the blunt truth of what happening. I love how Tsukasa is both an antagonost and as well a stealth mentor torwards Sougo. Also Sougo calling him the guy who ate his dinner was great. Also seeing Build vs Sparkling and the logical victory going torwards ZI-O was a neat thing.

And finally there Kasshine who stands out as the non Legend Rider based monater in this season. And I gotta say for a footsoldier he's really dang tough and seem more like a commander.

[cosmicrescend0]

Episode 15!

-Man, really love the appearance of Geiz the Teenager this episode in the opening. After flinging himself at Another Ghost once Sougo went down last arc, it's really nice to see him open up a bit, and (kinda) admit that he likes Sougo and wants to find a way to stop Oma Zi-O without murdering the kid.

-.......Of course, all that doesn't matter when it seems the world's suddenly under seige from Oma-Zio, causing Geiz to reaffirm that leaving Sougo alive is actually a terrible mistake and that being soft on him is what led to this destruction. And so, Geiz the Future Warrior comes crashing back in.....

-I don't know how to describe it, but I love Woz's energy in this one? He's super thrilled to see his overlord's work in action, and a chance to finally steer Sougo back on the path of Oma-Zio.

-........Oh my god I forgot we got Sougo's Dream this early. I'll save my proper thoughts on it for another time but like. I hate it so much. Just feels very....weird, as a motive.

-Anyway! Sougo and Oma-Zio! I really enjoy Oma-Zio's face is hidden, almost like his godlike power is blinding. Him counterattacking with the same Riders Sougo was using (Was that a vilon I spy during him using the Kiva Ridewatch?) On my inital watch, I think one of my main complaints was that I could never actually see this Sougo turning into the ridiclously evil Oma-Zio, but now....I get it? Intentions lost to the sands of time and all that, and no people like Geiz/Tsukuyomi to steer him back into the right direction, etc, etc, etc.

-Really looking forward to next episode, I think it was a favorite of mine on the inital watch.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

To get one particular nitpick aside, the dream. As far as this episode is concerned, it's the 'explanation' for why Sougo wants to be a king. It's... not really? Why wouldn't he have just assumed it was only a dream? And even if he decided to believe it at face value for whatever reason, it still makes no sense and doesn't go towards explaining anything about the way he acts in episode 1 and so on.

I just hate the obvious Time Nonsense of it. It's clearly someone from the future (or past, or whatever) who will give Sougo this crucial foreshadowing, and they'll be revealed in a later story. (Sougo? Geiz? Sougo's heretofore unmentioned dad? A resurgent Yurusen? A lot of options as of Episode 15.) It's a mystery I'm zero percent invested in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

For the first time, Geiz saying he's going to kill Sougo isn't just part of his schtick, but it feels like this tragic decision because he feels like his hopes that things would turn out okay have been dashed.

Yeah, it's not a great episode for Geiz'z optimism, either! He's been trying to duck the inevitability of Oma Zi-O by believing in Sougo's Good Despot pitch, but it all came crashing down around him. There's a real sadness to Geiz telling Tsukuyomi that he feels like an idiot for thinking he could be anything other than a soldier. He's throwing away all of his character growth, and it's really heartbreaking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchilada645

Oma Zi-O and Sougo's confrontation... I can't say much other than a fun fact. Because while I have my own interpretations of Oma Zi-O. I feel he is way more than just big bad evil Overlord for one. We're not far enough in to get why I think that yet. So fun fact time is! You know how he redirects the CGI Bats against Sougo? It's hard to tell, and hell I didn't even tell at first. But Oma Zi-O is playing a violin to do that, Bloody Rose in fact! I only found this out by looking up Bloody Rose on the Rider Wiki!

That Zi-O/Oma Zi-O duel is suitably epic. All of those redirected finishes! Zi-O's increasingly rushed attacks! The way Zi-O eventually just starts spamming whatever instead of trying to work tactically! It's great!

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrandComplete

Also seeing Build vs Sparkling and the logical victory going torwards ZI-O was a neat thing.

I guess the DX Decadriver didn't come with upgrade form Kamen Rides?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicrescend0

I don't know how to describe it, but I love Woz's energy in this one? He's super thrilled to see his overlord's work in action, and a chance to finally steer Sougo back on the path of Oma-Zio.

He's so sick babysitting Kamen Rider Puppy Dog! He's ready for some History to be made! Apocalypses are more fun to narrate than Geiz running away from home, I'd assume.

[Androzani84]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I guess the DX Decadriver didn't come with upgrade form Kamen Rides?

Those are coming later. With what, I'll try to keep quiet on. It may also have something to do with Build being the only thing the action figure can transform into. (The So-do can do Ghost, Ex-Aid, OOO, Ryuki, Faiz and Saber as well)

And as for Rider Tsukuyomi… that was something people discovered early on by hacking the belt to create different lights and sounds (as you may or may not have noticed from the videos I've been sharing, when a Ridewatch is inserted, it generates the name of the show, followed by the year it premiered, with a few exceptions (Geiz's says Geiz 2068, the final forms are (name of form) Fin., and the Ryusoulger watch is SS {short for Super Sentai} 1975 {the year the first Super Sentai aired}.) Which is why, in lieu of any new watches this episode, I'll be presenting a list of graphics that can't be accessed with any available toy.

* "Zi-O" (Dated 2058)
* "Zi-O" (Dated 2038)
* "Zi-O" (Dated 2000)
* "Zi-O" (Dated 1989)
* "Zi-O" (Dated 1971)
* "Zi-O" (Dated "Rider" (ライダー))
* "Zi-O" (Dated with 4 clock symbols)
* "Zi-O" (Dated XXXX)
* "Zi-O" (Dated ****)
* "Geiz" (Dated 2058)
* "Geiz" (Dated 2038)
* "Geiz" (Dated 2020)
* "Geiz" (Dated 1989)
* "Geiz" (Dated 1971)
* "Geiz" (Dated "Rider" (ライダー))
* "Geiz" (Dated XXXX)
* "Rider 1" (Dated 1971)
* "Rider 2" (Dated 1971)
* "V3" (Dated 1973)
* "Riderman" (Dated 1973)
* "X" (Dated 1974)
* "Amazon" (Dated 1974)
* "Stronger" (Dated 1975)
* "Skyrider" (Dated 1979)
* "Super-1" (Dated 1980)
* "ZX" (Dated 1984)
* "Black" (Dated 1987)
* "Next" (Dated 0000)
* "Rider" (Dated XXXX)
* "Rider" (Dated "Rider" (ライダー))
* "Heisei" (Dated "--HR--")
* "Showa" (Dated "--SR--")
* "Kamen Rider" (Dated "Rider" (ライダー))
* "Shocker" (Dated 1971)
* "Special" (Dated "--SP--")
* "Millennium " (Dated 2000)
* "All Riders" (Dated "Rider" (ライダー))
* "Ancient" (Dated 0000)

But, an enterprising modder by the name of Hiroji Hidaka (whose other innovations include a Smash Bros Gashat, light up Fullbottles, a Diend version of the Decade watch, a Hazard Gaia Memory and a device that uses Cell Medals or Fullbottles to print Progrisekeys) did give us this from some of these lights.

All I'll say with the episode is that I liked the Zi-O vs Ohma fight (I'll hold off on who's actually portraying Ohma physically, since the producers did likewise), but I know someone pointed out Sougo's lack of fashion sense has devolved into Ohma Zi-O having a garish supervillain costume.

As for etymology, Kasshine simply means "servant".

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

But, an enterprising modder by the name of Hiroji Hidaka (whose other innovations include a Smash Bros Gashat, light up Fullbottles, a Diend version of the Decade watch, a Hazard Gaia Memory and a device that uses Cell Medals or Fullbottles to print Progrisekeys) did give us this from some of these lights.

Very cool! Thanks!

[Fish Sandwich]

(Fish Sandwich also watched Kamen Rider Zi-O - EP15)

This episode was such a great turning point for the series, to a level that reading even as minor a criticism as "a little one-note" has me defensively thinking "IT'S A REALLY GOOD NOTE THOUGH!!!"

Definitely an episode that does a lot to start refocusing Sougo's character, retroactively justifying his early attitude in the show by making it intensely clear how much him not taking his future seriously was always the point. The whole prophetic dream thing, by the way, is something I think ended up adding a fair bit to the themes of the show, but I suppose that's all I should say for now.

And speaking of Sougo's character, one of the coolest things about this one is just that it was a great way to bring Oma Zi-O into the spotlight as a proper character. Everything about him is just great here. I love how his response to Sougo saying he thought he'd become the bestest goodest king ever is just to go "I am that", which really exemplifies the whole problem with Sougo's dream job. If you're the ultimate authority in the world, then you know, as long as you think you're doing alright... Basically, Oma Zi-O is just a really neat idea in general? That design already seemed cool before the show even started airing, but then you hear Koyama's imposing voice for him, and they find space like this to loop him into an episode plot in a interesting way, and he starts to genuinely feel like as big a deal as the other characters make him out to be.

And while Geiz's "Zi-O" is a favorite of mine, and Woz's "waga maou" is iconic, I also love how Oma Zi-O always refers to Sougo as "wakaki hi no watashi", which rubs in that, yes, they really are the same person, no matter how much Sougo doesn't want to believe it, but on top of that, it has this affectionate tone to it that really enhances their whole dynamic. Just that one bit of word choice implies so much about how Oma Zi-O views the Sougo of the present.

[Switchblade]

Honestly, I liked the dream development and really wish it had been included earlier, possibly from the first episode. It fixed what was always my biggest problem with Sougo, which is how inane the whole "I wanna be a king!" thing is. Without the context of a prophetic dream it makes him look like a moron who doesn't understand how monarchies work and is making about as much sense as a four-year-old saying they want to be a rocket ship when they grow up. Knowing that there's a legitimate foundation for this makes him still look like a moron who doesn't understand how monarchies work, but at least there's a rationale behind it now.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 15 - ?BACK TO 2068?

Sougo?s optimism was always going to be his Achilles heel.

His entire goal ? to be a Good Despot ? is one that?s laughably disconnected from the grim history of mankind. Civilization was built by people, and people aren?t always great. Very few countries (if any) have flourished without regrettable-to-inhumane actions, and very few of those countries? rulers are seen as beacons of morality. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, no matter the amount of caring friends you surround yourself with, or the good intentions you might have. (In fact, there?s another expression, about which path is paved with good intentions?)

Hmm... it's not that optimism is bad (not me though), but Sougo displays one of the most disastrous depiction of optimism, he's the type of optimist that due to how he always views things as always going well, and looking only at the good side, it's means he completely overlooks what's bad to look at the good side, thus making himself oblivious to the surroundings and the bad things that surrounds them (unless when it's undeniable like Another Rider attack or the people's suffering in the future in front of his eyes, but then again he did try to think they're still alive). By this Sougo can even appear insensitive at times despite wanting the best for others, like him not recognizing other's anger at him such as Geiz screaming him off. Yeah, likely his optimism is the one that made him, for example, not notice the feelings of people surrounding him. Though actually Sougo had faith in Geiz and Tsukuyomi that, if Sougo strays from his path, they'd stop him.

Even his rule as Ohma Zi-O can be also attributed at his optimism - obliviousness, he thought he had become kind overlord even when he wiped out half of humanity and rules the rest with an oppressive iron fist. A̶n̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶r̶a̶c̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶I̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶h̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶y̶p̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶o̶p̶t̶i̶m̶i̶s̶m̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶S̶p̶o̶n̶g̶e̶B̶o̶b̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶b̶a̶s̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶e̶q̶u̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶.̶ Otherwise, those civilizations aren't built to better whole mankind, but it can be done to fuel tribalism or only benefit their own groups (even for survival), so the inhumane actions or not being beacons of morality is kinda expected, if those aren't fighting for general good at the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Because he doesn?t see that he?s got a problem. Oma Zi-O?s a bad guy, and Sougo just won?t become a bad guy. Sougo believes he?ll find a way to gain all the power and abilities of Oma Zi-O, just as he?s destined to, but he just Won?t Be Evil Somehow. The end. What?s for breakfast?

The stakes of the series can?t ever increase until Sougo directly confronts the claims of the Time Orphans, so we are on a soul-crushing trip to the orange-tinged Misery Fields of 2068, where Sougo can scream at Oma Zi-O, and Oma Zi-O can humiliate Sougo.

Though power can corrupt, likely it's plausible to assume that if Sougo would be a bad guy, he likely would be someone that did dirty things if pushed to accomplish what he wants, not someone who rules over the world in a totalitarian dictatorship, not a hyper-drastic turn in someone with Kamen Rider sensibility becomes someone with a morality (or lack of) of Evolt, that's going from an absolute one end of a moral spectrum to the absolute another end of a moral spectrum. Even becoming a mere bad guy would still mostly have them far from being as evil as Evolt, still had to go long way. As Ohma Zi-O is also an opposite to Evolt in some ways, that Evolt controls space, wants to destroy Earth for fun, and is a primordial alien. But Ohma Zi-O controls time, wants to rule Earth as an overlord, and is a human from future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Beyond that, though, it?s a little one-note? It?s Sougo just screaming No at things a lot, which is both the point of the episode (Sougo?s constant self-deception is making his worst future more likely), and kind of a drag. Sougo needs to hit rock-bottom, emotionally, but he?s starting so so high above that, which means it?s going to take a lot longer than we?d maybe like for him to be in a place to deal with his future.

I think there are more than screaming no, there are actually some good build up (other than Sougo and Tsukasa's fight), though there's exposure involved, with how it starts with Dai Mazines attacking the city of which it's informed as Ohma Zi-O's mechas, then if Dai Mazines are mere killer robots, there's a more sentient underling in Kasshiin, who'd want to help Ohma Zi-O by eliminating resistance, which is Geiz and Tsukuyomi for now, as well as clearly 'protecting' present Sougo from them. The nice part was especially about how present Sougo did act to try to stop Kasshiin, but it denies present Sougo's order with the claim of he himself ordering the execution, of which this'd be something further up regarding Sougo, more of the contradicting reality of him exposed. There's a clear reason on why Sougo is denial like would not ordering to destroy world or assassinating Geiz. It's even more in the future when more proof is exposed on Sougo with the monument of his first henshin, the shock of seeing people's suffering, making it harder to deny Tsukuyomi's exposition now.

After all of that Sougo finally had a mental breakdown of realizing all of his denials claims before are real truth and even shoves Tsukuyomi away, he's moping over how his hopes and dreams have just come crashing down around him, the only thing he can do is lash out at his own reflection. Obviously, a total opposite of the 2 Sougos reunion in ep. 11-12 before where both are the most supportive to each other (albeit Ohma Zi-O is technically 'supportive' of urging Sougo to become like him). Regarding what I said above, I'd think Sougo recognizing what his future self did as evil is really important to counteract his optimism - obliviousness. Though for the fight between Sougos, I'd think Ohma Zi-O's showing here isn't terribly impressive, like using finisher still to deal with present Sougo's attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The part of the episode I liked the best is the recurring entreaty ? by friend and foe alike ? for Sougo to stop Oma Zi-O once and for all by abandoning his Driver. Just, quit. Beyond being a nicely archetypal Can You Use An Evil Power To Do Good thematic note (real top-line Kamen Rider stuff), I like how obviously wrong it is. Sougo can?t avoid the future by refusing to go there; literally, in this episode. It?s no victory to lay down his sword. Time keeps moving onward, even into a future we don?t particularly look forward to. The solution can?t ever be to deny it exists, nor can it be to stay in the past.

It'd be understandably hard, but Geiz is likely learning something new here, to try to reason with what you think is a threat first in asking for Sougo to throw away his belt, instead of instantly resorting into murder or annihilation. Geiz also now tried to kill Sougo out of desperation here instead of being purely fueled by hate and vengeance as Sougo still won't quit being Kamen Rider and the situation is more dire. But actually, the reason that abandoning Driver is hard is more than what you're talking about here, and it lies on one of the major casts, but it'd be shown soon so not now. Tsukasa being a wild card is even more affecting here that other than the Time Jackers, Geiz (Time Jacker's enemy) also tried to ask for Tsukasa's help to eliminate Ohma Zi-O, as well as Woz thinking that Tsukasa would help him by sending Sougo to the future to give his reality check, of which Woz had fatalist view of Sougo (well, full faith of his boss, but utilized in bad way) that Sougo would become evil by that thus fulfills Woz's goals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O COMPLEMENTATION PROJECT EPISODE 15.5 - ?BE FOREVER COMPLEMENTATION PROJECT (PART ONE)?

I would watch both of those proposed spin-offs, honestly. I know Geiz gets a movie after the show, and I?ve heard enough people on the Figuarts thread mention ?Kamen Rider Tsukuyomi? to say that neither option presented here wouldn?t work. These are all fun actors, and I like all of their characters. You wanna hand the show over to Tsukuyomi or Geiz? Be my guest!

Though Geiz is already a Rider, there's also a moment where Tsukuyomi slides into Kasshiin to save Geiz.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

This episode was such a great turning point for the series, to a level that reading even as minor a criticism as "a little one-note" has me defensively thinking "IT'S A REALLY GOOD NOTE THOUGH!!!"

Yeah, I don't mean for that criticism to sound like a failing of the episode, really. It's more that once I saw where the episode was going, I was ready for it to get there. Once Tsukasa shoves Sougo into the future, there's not much to knock this episode on. Chalk it up to my impatience!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

Knowing that there's a legitimate foundation for this makes him still look like a moron who doesn't understand how monarchies work, but at least there's a rationale behind it now.

"Oh, I thought he was stupid, but he's just crazy. That's more like it!" - reluctant Zi-O viewers after Episode 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Though actually Sougo had faith in Geiz and Tsukuyomi that, if Sougo strays from his path, they'd stop him.

I mean, that was never the safeguard that Sougo made it out to be. While he said that he'd know if he was on the right track by Geiz and Tsukuyomi's approval, he tended to meet their disapproval with dismissals and subterfuge. He was not great at listening to their warnings! Anyone's warnings!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Though power can corrupt, likely it's plausible to assume that if Sougo would be a bad guy, he likely would be someone that did dirty things if pushed to accomplish what he wants, not someone who rules over the world in a totalitarian dictatorship, not a hyper-drastic turn in someone with Kamen Rider sensibility becomes someone with a morality (or lack of) of Evolt, that's going from an absolute one end of a moral spectrum to the absolute another end of a moral spectrum.

Fifty years is a long time! You're thinking of it in Sougo's terms, where he can't see the Time Orphans' claims as legitimate because he'd never ever do those things. But that's Tsukasa's whole point: here's the future where you absolutely became that guy. Why did he become Oma Zi-O? That's the story of this show going forward. But, like, it's pretty indisputable now.

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER HEISEI GENERATIONS FOREVER



Being a fan is a blessing and a curse.

I don’t know if it’s healthy for me to be a grown American adult who cares this much about Kamen Rider. I don’t know if I should be devoting hours each day to scrutinizing a show designed to sell toys to Japanese children. I don’t know if I should be spending possibly thousands of dollars a year on merch. I don’t know if all of this is good for me, psychologically.

I do know that Kamen Rider has been there for me during times of hardship. I do know that being a Kamen Rider fan has connected me with people I’d’ve never encountered otherwise; made friends with people all over the globe. I do know that the last few years have been richer for this community’s place in my life.

Being a fan of something is so complicated. There’s always going to be a push and pull to it. Those times when you find something that speaks to a part of you that you never knew was there, versus the times where you’re let down by some show, some toy, some performer.

The idea of making an entire Kamen Rider movie about the ways the franchise acts as both a respite and an anchor, that’s kind of lovely. There’s an ambivalence to this movie, in its best stretch, that I found really compelling. It’s not the usual Kamen Riders Always Make Things Worse gimmick, like in the Be The One movie, where it's some villain trying to deflect suspicion and blame. It’s more subtle than that. It’s asking if Ataru’s okay.

I think that’s a fair question? He seems happy. He’s well-adjusted, more or less. His amount of Kamen Rider stuff isn’t out of hand. (Especially considering he’s been collecting for 18 years.) But his love for Kamen Rider, the excitement of its worlds, goes hand-in-hand with him preferring the simplicity of tokusatsu to the complexity of life. He was raised by Kamen Rider to be a good person, but a good person who looks to Kamen Rider for the solutions to his problems.

You can’t do a 20-year anniversary film that interrogates the franchise and not come down on Kamen Rider Is Awesome, so the answer’s never really in doubt. Ataru had been looking to Kamen Riders to fix his life, and eventually they did. Their fictional nature doesn’t really matter, because stories are how we make sense of our world; they’re how we process our hardships. Drawing strength from stories about empathy and kindness can be valuable at any age, to any viewer. Well-curated collections are okay to own.

There’s a bunch of plot stuff that didn’t work for me. I think the scene to scene storytelling, especially in the back half, was unnecessarily difficult to follow. Certain elements in the movie felt like they were waiting for a guest appearance that never materialized. (Another Double is nobody, and there’s an awful lot of Kuuga talk for a movie where Kuuga never talks.) If I never see two dozen Riders do finishing moves and pose in Kamen Rider Quarry again, I’ll’ve still seen it too many times in my life.

But that’s all largely irrelevant. It’s not really a movie about plot machinations or ticking off a Legend Rider Return checklist. (Great to see Ryotaro, though.) It’s a movie that wants to talk about what the Kamen Rider franchise means to its fans: the good and the bad. But like the best Kamen Rider stories, it knows that good can come from bad.

We aren’t hiding from reality, or victims of a toy company. We’re people who discovered something that spoke to us – stories of hope and sadness and empathy and loss and humor and fear – and we discovered something else alongside it: a community of fans who wanted to share that discovery with others. The sad version of Ataru’s life is him being a Kamen Rider fan, alone and hoping for a different world than his own. The happy version of Ataru’s life is him and his brother as Kamen Rider fans through the decades; a fandom, instead of a fan.

Kamen Rider will never die, and neither will Kamen Rider fandom.



—

SPECIAL RYOTARO-LEVEL SURPRISE BONUS FEATURE!

KAMEN RIDER HEISEI GENERATIONS FOREVER.5 - “LET’S WATCH HEISEI GENERATIONS FOREVER!”



…and what better way is there to celebrate the permanence of Kamen Rider fandom than by reuniting the folks behind the definitely-existed project “TN's first LP! Let's Play Kamen Rider: Memory of Heroez”!

Yep, a whole bunch of us got together to record a horribly digressive and mostly unhelpful commentary track for Heisei Generations Forever! Join me, DreamSword, Androzani84, Enchiladas645, Name, and Kousan for a live recording of thoughts, jokes, and mild analysis of this film. You can grab the mp3 here. Hope you have as much fun listening to it as we did recording it!