[Androzani84]

Ah yes, one of the most memorable episodes of the show, partially for everyone seemingly being happy at Riki murdering his date (the joke is that in Japan, “to eat” is a euphemism for sex).

And after thinking about it, I’m going to do Maya’s “Fact Fangire-le” alongside this week’s Fangire. I’ll just refrain from identifying what she is for now.

Chameleon Fangire

True name: The Married Couple Hidden in the Salt Crystal Lattice (塩の結晶格子に潜む夫妻 Shio no Kesshō Kōshi ni Hisomu Fusai)

Human identity: Yamashita

Class: Lizard

Rank: Pawn

Actor: Yūrei Yanagi, Keiko Sakai (voice)

True name: The Blood Relatives of the Grim N?wa (冷厳なる女鍋の血族 Reigen naru Joka no Ketsuzoku)

Human identity: Maya

Rank: Queen

Class: Aqua

Actor: Saki Kagami

Deleted scenes this time include Nago’s date forcing him into a photograph (which he destroys) and Ramon coaching Riki on his romantic lines.

Ramon: You are my sunshine (taiyou)

Riki: You are my captain (taichou)

[FreshToku]

Sorry but I can't help but derive a bit of schadenfreude from how your previous post was singing the praises of the writer and then the very next post is lamenting as the show throws its worst yet at you, haha....... Anyhow, its not like this show was actually made in 1986, nor do I believe its trying to offer any commentary about the norms of the time or whatever. Its just 'oof' all around.

Also what!! I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know Mio was played by the same actor as Mari from 555. That's kinda funny to me? Its like if, I dunno, Airi from Den-O and Hina from OOO or something were played by the same person.

[Kurona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Why the hell would Jiro even ask Shima, and why would Shima's acceptance mean anything to Yuri?

I will bring up that in Japanese culture, there is a big thing about the potential groom asking the brides' parents (particularly their father) for permission to date or marry their daughter, which I assume is what's going on here. It is something that dates a while back and does extend past childhood. But, well, even putting aside opinions on that...

A) As you've said, Shima is barely at all established as a real father figure for Yuri. At best this is like, dramatically inert and incompetent; and at worst it, yes, comes across as asking a woman's boss for permission to date her.

B) The tradition typically follows the couple already deciding they're in love and want to be with each other? Which is kind of the big thing here! I'm no expert or anything, and perhaps this isn't totally unheard of (and this is the 80s we're talking about rather than modern day or late-2000s Japan), but usually when I hear or read about this it does follow some sort of mutual love. At the very least, as something presented in the show it isn't really great or engaging!



Like... man, I dunno, this really is a mess. Perhaps I, KivaHater8934 is the last person you wanna be hearing from on this at the moment, but it is pretty illustrative of my issues with the show and I agree with most everything else you said here

[Sh Ranger]

Maya is a pretty exciting character and her introduction is a major turning point for the 1986 story. Even though she's the enforcer for Fangire law, responsible for punishing forbidden love with humans, she is also one of the most human Fangires in the show who is vulnerable to that same crime. Due to the longevity of Fangires, she has seen a lot of the world and this gives her a strong curiosity to experience that culture, including from other species. Unlike Nago who zealously believes in his crusade, Maya does the whole Queen thing as a job society demands her to do but doesn't have her heart in that, which might be why a carefree chaotic guy like Otoya provokes such a powerful unknown feeling from her. Humans have something that Fangires don't, the ability to choose their own identity separate from their species without judgement from others and that freedom is embodied in Otoya, making him one of the brightest examples of mankind and he possesses something that intrigues Maya, at least on an unconscious level.

This is where Inoue's talent for writing love triangles really escalates to the next level! While the number of people involved is less than in Faiz, I think the intensity of the love triangle here is increased. Specifically, the fated meeting between Otoya and Maya and the progression of the Jirou-Yuri-Otoya triangle are definitely connected stories.

Fangire law is more immoral than Smart Brain law as well. The latter doesn't have a reason to forbid love with humans, since they require humans who can survive mutation in to Orphenochs. But humans and Fangires are completely unrelated species, therefore the only reason why Fangires kill humans is due to seeing them as competition and prey to be hunted, much like how the vampires they're derived from are often portrayed. This is also the reason why they exterminated all but one each of the Clawolves, Merfolk and Frankens. They want to stand on top of all the species and reject any of their kind who doesn't agree with that philosophy. Unfortunately for them, they can't control who the Queen power goes to, so it's a very flawed system.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

Ah yes, one of the most memorable episodes of the show, partially for everyone seemingly being happy at Riki murdering his date (the joke is that in Japan, “to eat” is a euphemism for sex).

Thanks for the explanation! Sort of thought that was what they were getting at, but wondered if I was being too dirty with my inference. I was not!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

Sorry but I can't help but derive a bit of schadenfreude from how your previous post was singing the praises of the writer and then the very next post is lamenting as the show throws its worst yet at you, haha....... Anyhow, its not like this show was actually made in 1986, nor do I believe its trying to offer any commentary about the norms of the time or whatever. Its just 'oof' all around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

Also what!! I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know Mio was played by the same actor as Mari from 555. That's kinda funny to me? Its like if, I dunno, Airi from Den-O and Hina from OOO or something were played by the same person.

The thing I like about The Waitress here and Mari's character in Faiz is that the actor approaches them differently enough for them to feel unique. Like, Mari is standoffish and curt, while The Waitress is clumsy and shy. They're neither of them outgoing and talkative, but they come by their withdrawn behavior in different ways. It's a part that both seems written for one actor, and also played by an actor who wants to stretch some different muscles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurona

I will bring up that in Japanese culture, there is a big thing about the potential groom asking the brides' parents (particularly their father) for permission to date or marry their daughter, which I assume is what's going on here. It is something that dates a while back and does extend past childhood. But, well, even putting aside opinions on that...

A) As you've said, Shima is barely at all established as a real father figure for Yuri. At best this is like, dramatically inert and incompetent; and at worst it, yes, comes across as asking a woman's boss for permission to date her.

B) The tradition typically follows the couple already deciding they're in love and want to be with each other? Which is kind of the big thing here! I'm no expert or anything, and perhaps this isn't totally unheard of (and this is the 80s we're talking about rather than modern day or late-2000s Japan), but usually when I hear or read about this it does follow some sort of mutual love. At the very least, as something presented in the show it isn't really great or engaging!

I mean, there's a Western tradition to getting the parents' approval to marry their daughter, but it's usually the last thing you do, not the first. (It's also considered polite, not some final hurdle to clear. If the parents don't approve, it ain't like the couple is breaking up! It just means the wedding is going to be awkward!) It generally helps to know that the person you're going to be marrying even thinks of you in a romantic context?

Like, the main problem with this storyline is that we know that Otoya is obsessed with Yuri, and we know that Jiro is obsessed with Yuri, but we've gotten zero insight into Yuri's feelings for either of them beyond Omnipresent Dismay. It's a storyline that centers all of the drama on How Will These Two Guys Defeat Their Romantic Rival instead of, like, Why Doesn't Yuri Run Screaming From Both Of Them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurona

Perhaps I, KivaHater8934 is the last person you wanna be hearing from on this at the moment, but it is pretty illustrative of my issues with the show and I agree with most everything else you said here

The bummer for me, as an Inoue fan, is that this story started off so well for Otoya and Yuri. It jettisoned the more controversial elements of the previous story's conclusion to focus on Otoya's sweetness and Yuri's understandable gratitude for his support when it mattered most. And then the whole episode becomes Otoya and Jiro fighting over her like she's the IXA Knuckle in a pantsuit! I mean, Shima gave her away to Jiro without even telling her, so she might as well be the IXA Knuckle!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

This is where Inoue's talent for writing love triangles really escalates to the next level! While the number of people involved is less than in Faiz, I think the intensity of the love triangle here is increased. Specifically, the fated meeting between Otoya and Maya and the progression of the Jirou-Yuri-Otoya triangle are definitely connected stories.

Yeah, it definitely feels like we're in that phase of the narrative. It doesn't feel like the introduction of Maya and The Waitress, along with all of these group dates, is some coincidence. Putting aside the problem of Yuri's (continuous, inescapable, eternal) lack of agency, there's some real energy to the '86 romantic comedy stuff. I just wish it didn't require a meek Yuri to work!

[Fish Sandwich]

I definitely need to share the aptly titled Wake Up at some point, which is probably a rather iconic track for the show between being played for Kiva's finishers and at the start of so many episodes. 21 is a case where it's used for both, so I figure this is nice enough timing.

Real shame Kiva totally whiffs on that Kick here though. Maybe it would've gone better if he had remembered to do the cool stock footage.

Also!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It’s no triumph to put a plane into a nosedive and then manage not to kill any of the passengers.

Yeeeeeeah, suffice it to say, this isn't my favorite '86 plot in the show. Honestly, in general, as funny as I find Otoya, I recall not being particularly emotionally invested in more than a few of those past sections of Kiva, especially compared to how much I warmed to the '08 cast. It sounds like this episode is pretty much an example of why taken to the extreme.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

In every heart, there's an Inoue fan waiting to be born. You just have to break the chains of fate and open your eyes and count to zero! It was there in the theme songs and you all missed it! INOUE FOREVER!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER KIVA EPISODE 21 - “RHAPSODY: THE FATE OF THE RING”

I mean, hoo boy, this show ain’t making it easy to defend its treatment of Yuri!

I get that it’s A Different Era and A Different Culture or whatever (no idea to what degree that’s true versus an easy way to not confront the story choices), but to have the very next Yuri story after her realizing she can’t/shouldn’t be IXA, to have that story be Jiro Claims Yuri… you guys are not making this easy on an Inoue fan! This tough stuff to excuse!

Well, there's the reality. While Inoue does get the memorable and comedic parts right, like when he's appointed to write slice-of-life episodes, and he can deliver when the TV production team kept him on the leash, Inoue's controversial part actually takes the bigger part in how his stories are full of misogynistic, homophobic, and generally toxic tropes... which is why I can't stand for treating him as beyond criticism in any form and those who don't like him are wrong, and (even if you're joking) I want to encourage practicing wise discernment, no matter how successful the author is or how much you like the works of those authors (other example is, authors like Lovecraft who writes successful horror stories, but has racist and supremacist views), where though he did write characters like Ozawa from Agito, the other times he had not been kind to women, such as writing for them to be killed just to give the male heroes motivation to fight the villains, or something to angst about. Cannot be condescending as in considering your views of Inoue are the only right one (especially if bias is involved), and treat others as insignificant or invalid. Though for the better take regarding this, it can be that the characters are the ones that is misogynistic, instead of the show, the characters acting sexist are supposed to be in the wrong. Then again this would show another part of his that the characters are all assholes, and their acts cannot be overlooked for "comedic purpose", seen clearly here. Though here it's the first time that Jirou shows his abusive boyfriend aspects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It’s just, there are still a bunch of funny jokes at the 1986 group date? It is stupidly funny to watch Otoya and Jiro both preen like animals, taking any opportunity to show up their competition. Those two actors are demolishing the jokes, making a meal out of everything they're given. It’s absolutely destroying Yuri’s character to have her ringside for this bullshit, but fighting for the show to treat her better is beginning to feel like a lost cause. If this is where Yuri’s story is going to go, at least I can laugh at the farce of it all.

Oh right the conflict between Otoya and Jiro is wacky, though I just don't want for it to be considered as their "type of mating" or such, making light of transgressive acts (the part of the wacky date is also a Fangire eating one of the woman dates). The only part of them legitimately bonding is when they legitimately work together for Yuri's sake, like their tag team against Rook.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The 2008 stuff turns out miles, miles better. A bunch of smart ideas, and none are smarter than bringing in Mari from Faiz as a new woman in Wataru’s life.

Her name's Mio Suzuki (w̶h̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶n̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶f̶e̶e̶l̶s̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶m̶o̶t̶o̶r̶c̶y̶c̶l̶e̶-̶y̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶g̶o̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶r̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶w̶a̶y̶,̶ ̶Y̶a̶m̶a̶h̶a̶'̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶d̶u̶c̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶M̶i̶o̶ ̶m̶o̶t̶o̶r̶c̶y̶c̶l̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶S̶u̶z̶u̶k̶i̶!̶), and yeah so far she's basically made to be the female version of Wataru, for her shyness and doormat tendencies..... but dont' expect her to be as innocent as Wataru is. I wouldn't say anything more for her though, for you claiming it's 2008 version of Maya's introduction. And for the group date, Megumi (and for anyone else in the real world too... as the reserved type like Wataru is more of a minority among humans) should learn to not force people to act loud, stand out, etc., seen in a woman who finds Wataru's timid nature appealing. Also, Kengo asking for Nago to teach rock? That's a death sentence... Nago's someone who hates music based on his "humanity full potential" mindset, and he literally smacked you before for playing music in front of him!!

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Well, there's the reality. While Inoue does get the memorable and comedic parts right, like when he's appointed to write slice-of-life episodes, and he can deliver when the TV production team kept him on the leash, Inoue's controversial part actually takes the bigger part in how his stories are full of misogynistic, homophobic, and generally toxic tropes...

I mean, I didn't like one plot in one episode. It's not like every other Inoue thing I've ever watched is bad and should feel bad. Shit, it's not even like Kiva as a series is something I dislike now. It's one bad plot! Let's not give it too much power!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Though for the better take regarding this, it can be that the characters are the ones that is misogynistic, instead of the show, the characters acting sexist are supposed to be in the wrong.

Well, that only really works if the show let Yuri call Jiro, Shima, etc on their sexist nonsense. It completely doesn't, and she absolutely would, so there's really no way to spin this as the show using regressive tropes to comment on them.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Real shame Kiva totally whiffs on that Kick here though. Maybe it would've gone better if he had remembered to do the cool stock footage.

Yeah! What's up with them not doing the whole finisher? And shouldn't there be a big Kiva emblem burned into the ground? What an embarrassing mistake in an otherwise flawless episode.

[Sunred]

So Dogabaki form. CLEARLY another attempt at cashing in on the residual Den-O hype.