[Sunred]

So Sieg is a unique one in that he does not follow the standard -taros naming convention. He is based off the swan from the Swan Lake ballet and his name derives from Siegfried, the prince who appears in Swan Lake. And Wing Form is a retool of Sword Form but with a different color scheme, buckle, shoulders, and eyes. His Dengasher configuration is also unique in that it beocmes two weapons; a boomerang and a one-handed axe.

[Zatyme]

Another interesting thing is that the concept art for Seig is labeled as the Swan Imagin and this is reflected in his chest saying SWAN as Seig is one of 2 Imagins that had their name changed between their design being approved and showing up in media

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I think it's just the likeability of Team Den-O wearing him down. It's hard to dislike them when they're so goofy! Yuuto just watched the same two-parter we all did, and it probably melted his heart just a little bit.

Well ok, though I was thinking for mainly Ryotaro (dunno about Airi influence) as Yuuto apparently has history together with him in the past. Still fighting to help grounded approach to over the top ones though, like don't make ppl think that if the cast is not goofy, then they're unlikable, and that if you're goofy you get a free pass regardless of morality, as there are people who are worse than Yuuto like Ryutaros (and also may or may not refering for certain Rider series with the most harmonic cast and grounded one).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 24 - “THE PRINCE’S GOODBYE LULLABY”

This isn’t a story that asks Hana, Ryotaro, or Yuuto to do more than witness Sieg’s story. It’s a good story, no complaints about that, but this story could’ve basically happened to any cast. You could tell this same story in Ghost, in Ex-Aid, in Wizard. Sieg’s story doesn’t reflect the story of a main cast member, and no human really learns anything because of this story. No one changes or grows on account of Sieg’s survival. It’s just, like, some adventure they go on. It’s a good adventure! It just doesn’t connect with any of the cast emotionally or thematically

But Sieg is unofficially the fifth part of the DenLiner crew, providing Ryotaro Nogami with Den-O's Wing Form. Though his significance is for something unexpected, his appearence here is just like the debut of Momotaros, Urataros, Kintaros, and Ryutaros. Also, I know this is entertainment demands, but I think that, contrary to popular belief (when people complain about no changes/growth), most people don't go through dramatic changes in their life all of the time. TV shows in particular often fall into the trap of too much character development - an episode where a character changes is all fine and good, but when you pile up changes on each character each season, it gets to a point where it becomes silly. This story also shows a new thing not previously seen before, which is that, a contract holder that is actually a bad person, which would make them actually tag team with the IOTW (albeit previously he was lazy) doing their wish in a destructive way.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It’s the easiest way to use Sieg’s story to say something about Ryotaro’s relationships, about how it feels to protect a sibling or be protected by a sibling.

Damn ur right. Wasted chance for a parallel though. Sieg with the baby and Ryotaro with Airi as both are siblings. Airi is Ryotaro's older sibling, but she seems to reach some motherly figure territory to Ryotaro, like how she tends to Ryotaro's stuff such as the way she treats his injuries or her nurturing approach. I can't say much about Sieg and the baby's relationship as he's well, a baby, and it's mostly one way approach for Sieg to the baby, which is about Sieg's interaction with the mother instead (which Sieg also fiercely protective of) returning the favor, but the mother knowing him as Ryotaro instead, and the favor was Ryotaro saving her. And Sieg is also about the fantasy mechanics yeah, about him forgetting that he has granted the wish of his contract holder, as he's disappearing a la Mirror World creature, and he should go to the past for the next step.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

That said! Very fun episode with some real pathos. All of the Ryotaro Arrested stuff was terrific, with each of our OG DenLiner Imagins working together to keep Ryotaro from going away for a long time. Ryotaro is a very sweet Kamen Rider, but the real hero of this part of the episode was Urataros. If you need a plausible alibi concocted at a moment’s notice from thin air, you tag in the turtle. I love that Ura not only lied his way to nearly being released, he basically filibustered his way to freedom? Asking Urataros to explain his side of things is basically signing your death warrant, and it goes as well for the cops as you’d think. Bonus points for Ura’s masterstroke: subbing in a sleeping Kin to avoid any follow-up questions. This team is coming together!

Well yeah, I wondered about how the Taro Imagins are helping Ryotaro, but not in fighting as Den-O. Feel like Momotaros screwed up the most, with his hotblooded tendencies causing more harm than good. Urataros is more suitable in that kind of situation with his intelligence and smooth-talk, but he decided to pass the torch to Kintaros... for once (when the Imagins tend to like to be the one who controls Ryotaro). Urataros is the MVP, but the most heroic doesn't equate to the most effective (Urataros being intelligent, anyone of any moral ground can accomplish more if they have brains and/or brawn in spades).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Speaking of Kin, I loved that Ax Form fight scene. (The Wing Form scene was nice, but it’s mostly just a Henshin and one move and that’s it.) It’s just Den-O taking hit after hit after hit as he stalks towards the Imagin. Those shots of Kin shrugging off these spark-inducing blows, so heroic, and then a palm strike into Dynamic Chop. Just the kind of badassery you cheer for. It’s a really nice moment, that fight.

Also the part where Den-O shields the baby and mother from falling debris, and the dramatic approach where Den-O just got squashed beneath it, but actually o̶r̶e̶ Kintaros sanjou. But.. I know you were joking with Fish about this in Faiz thread, but weren't you disagreeing with people injuring themselves as heroic moments (Kin shrugging off these spark-inducing blows)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I’m not sure this is a two-parter I’m going to rank highly, despite its many pleasures. (Deneb gets his head stuck in a gate because he forgot he got big again!) It’s too disconnected from the cast, too much just them rescuing someone without it feeling relevant to their stories. It’d be like if they saved people from a burning building, or fixed a flat tire. It can be a fun story, but it doesn’t feel like a Ryotaro (or Hana, or Yuuto) story.

Hana's aggressive treatment of Sieg temporarily redeems him with the trope of, someone doesn't treat a "royalty" as if they're above them, but even below (a lowly Imagin), which makes them more interested and attracted to that kind of person, despite Sieg doesn't taking people being insolent to him well otherwise. Also, as Sieg's power is turning the Imagins tiny, aside from comedic part, what I think is that it can be quite dangerous for the victims, as they became tiny, they can easily die (if they became as weak as bugs) for any huge objects (the humans or the objects) around them, intentionally (no one that wants to get rid of the pests have a thought of crushing them...) or accident.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Also, I know this is entertainment demands, but I think that, contrary to popular belief (when people complain about no changes/growth), most people don't go through dramatic changes in their life all of the time. TV shows in particular often fall into the trap of too much character development - an episode where a character changes is all fine and good, but when you pile up changes on each character each season, it gets to a point where it becomes silly.

And that's a choice a show can make, but it's a choice that keeps it from being excellent. Doing a story where the only person who goes on a journey is the guest star, that's fun at the expense of insight. I'm invested in this show (ostensibly) because of the journey Ryotaro goes on. If it's a story where he doesn't change, or I don't learn anything new about him, it's a story that's... I was going to say "almost not worth telling", but it's more that it's just inessential. It's a silver medal story. Pretty good, but still short of greatness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

But.. I know you were joking with Fish about this in Faiz thread, but weren't you disagreeing with people injuring themselves as heroic moments (Kin shrugging off these spark-inducing blows)?

Yeah, but that's Kin's fighting style? He's almost impervious to damage, so he's going to just get hammered until he's close enough to strike. He wasn't putting himself in any real danger.

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 25 - "DOUBLE CLIMAX JUMP”




I'm glad they went with a whole Dreams motif for this episode, because the easiest way to describe this thing is A Fever Dream.

The fact that it starts with a disoriented Ryotaro is perfect, because the majority of this episode is perplexing and contextless. There's a decent enough throughline for the Spider Imagin, where a guy wants his hospitalized little sister to see the stars and it all goes wrong (he made the wish in a nightmare!), but nearly every linking scene feels like the exposition has been edited out. Multiple Yuutos and Denebs appear, Momo and Kin are acting incredibly weird, and most dialogue could be replaced with This Will All Make Sense Later. It's an episode that's the setup for a joke, with the punchline still to come.

Like, there's a movie coming up! I get it! I'm not really mad at some protracted tie-in to what looks to be an appropriately bonkers Den-O summer film. This thing is serving a different narrative/corporate master, and that's fine. It's just, boy, real hard to talk about this one!

Setting aside all of the movie tie-in stuff (which looks very fun!), we get a variety of team-ups that generate variable excitement.

The first team-up, and the best one, is between Ryotaro and Yuuto. It's a situation that kicks off because Deneb demands it, basically. Ryotaro needs some help getting Milk Dipper set up for a party, and Deneb volunteers Yuuto's body. Yuuto gets mortified by Deneb's enthusiasm (that Yuuto actor looks hilariously psychotic), so he opts to help out on his own, even though he's Not Here To Make Friends.

I will maybe always love how transparent Yuuto is. He literally can't keep the smile off of his face as he channels Future Sakurai to put up the constellation decorations, and then he gets all grumpy and sullen when he thinks someone sees him enjoying himself. It's so dumb, him needing to keep this stoic facade when absolutely no one is impressed by it. It's a show about embracing who you are inside and not judging it, so of course we need a dope like Yuuto who's pushing away the people he wants to befriend by denying who he is. Of course.

It's also just fun to see Ryotaro and Yuuto try to solve an Imagin Mystery, because Ryotaro is honestly not that great at it? Yuuto immediately has a solid plan on how to proceed as a team, while Ryotaro almost blows their surveillance, then gets time-abducted, leaving Yuuto to do the whole goddamn thing himself. I'm starting to get why Yuuto doesn't want Ryotaro as a friend!

(One of the best gags in a riotously funny episode is that big declaration from Yuuto that the Spider Imagin is going to have to face Ryotaro... who is nowhere to be found. That shot from out in the hallway, with Yuuto's confused look through an empty doorway, and then the Spider Imagin leans in with an Oh Dude He Ghosted You, that was a great visual gag.)

The second team-up's a little one, but I like Naomi and Hana taking care of Milk Dipper for a minute. It's mostly there for an Ozaki thing, but I just like the concept. In my head, any scene of the two of them off of DenLiner is just Hana Teams With Legend Civilian Mana. But, like, Mana got weirdly into vinyl clothing in the last five years or something. Had a real fun time at uni, maybe.

The third team-up is an Airimirers thing, and I'm skipping that.

Fun episode to watch, even if I got no idea how any of it fits together yet. I guess between the next few days of episodes, and Sunday's movie, it'll all come together. Looking forward to understanding this episode retroactively!



THE BAGGAGE CAR

-So, the movie. I originally had it planned for after 26, since it came out the day before 27, but then the Wiki said 25-27 are all a lead-in for the movie, so now I'm watching it after 27. Sound right?

-One of the greatest character moments in all of Den-O is probably Deneb cursing himself for not making his candy delicious enough to get Hana to believe in Yuuto. The purity of Deneb is both adorable and pathetic in equal measures, a recipe that nourishes my soul. The fact that Momo got a Seihou before Deneb is galling, and easily one of the 800 dumbest things Bandai has done in the last two years.

-Ryotaro's bedroom is... nice! It's a room that's exactly like Ryotaro himself: pleasant, spacious, unassuming, forgettable. It's a vanilla box, just like its inhabitant. It's missing the color that the Imagin draw out of him. Smart set design.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I’m not sure this is a two-parter I’m going to rank highly, despite its many pleasures.

The strict focus on Sieg is actually something I really appreciate about these ones. You've made comments along these lines yourself a few times so far, but I feel Den-O, for better or worse, has a tendency to make its guest characters for any given story into background elements to a huge degree, so a two-parter that swings hard in the exact opposite direction is sort of a refreshing change of pace, in a way. Being such a solid pair of episodes is also a plus. It's not a story about Den-O, but it very much feels like a story that only Den-O would tell, to me.

This pair of episodes is also the point in my rewatch where I felt the need to call out the great staging for the Den-Liner scenes and the like, and while I was talking in general there, looking back, these particular episodes were directed by Tasaki, so it's maybe more than a coincidence that this is the point I got fired up enough to mention it. Really, even just looking at the use of those curtains in your screencaps for 24, it's kind of obvious this is his work. Not that I even comprehend why that's apparently an obvious tell in my mind, but it is!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

So, the movie. I originally had it planned for after 26, since it came out the day before 27, but then the Wiki said 25-27 are all a lead-in for the movie, so now I’m watching it after 27. Sound right?

Without saying anything specific, either works fine. I don't think they actually expected everyone to see the movie on day one of it being in theaters, so both 26 and 27 function kind of equally as lead-ins. If that sounds confusing, don't worry; This Will All Make Sense Later!

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

It's not a story about Den-O, but it very much feels like a story that only Den-O would tell, to me.

Sure, and that's why it's still pretty enjoyable. This is a series that has Feelings For And About Monsters baked into it on a fundamental level, so it's totally fitting to just do some quick story about an Imagin who accidentally catches familial feels and nearly dies because of it. And I'm all about stories that are focused on sympathetic monsters! Cubi!

But, like: Cubi. Cubi's story works within the world of Ghost because that show is all about how Takeru connects to people, about how everyone's connected to everyone else, about how inspiration is something that lives inside of everyone, even cubist monsters.

With Den-O, it's... I want to say it's a series that's less about how Ryotaro connects to the world, and more about how Ryotaro connects to himself. Doing a story about a sympathetic monster that doesn't ask anything extra of Ryotaro, or doesn't map to something in his experiences, it just feels like it's not doing the work it needs to do to make this story belong to this series? If I'm explaining my criticism well?

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

it just feels like it's not doing the work it needs to do to make this story belong to this series? If I'm explaining my criticism well?

Die, you know I'm going to understand any criticism if you frame it as "I wish this story had the same level of outstanding thematic cohesion as Kamen Rider Ghost."

I legitimately don't disagree, though. For as good as these episodes are, it's admittedly easy to see where tying it back to the main characters in some way could've elevated it further.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Die, you know I'm going to understand any criticism if you frame it as "I wish this story had the same level of outstanding thematic cohesion as Kamen Rider Ghost."

I legitimately don't disagree, though. For as good as these episodes are, it's admittedly easy to see where tying it back to the main characters in some way could've elevated it further.

If you are suggesting that I hedged my bet with you by unfavorably comparing Sieg's storyline in Den-O to something more resonant in Ghost... well, that hurts. I am as dismayed and heartbroken as Alain was at the death of Grandma Fumi. If having a heart brings emotions like these, then I don't want one!

[Switchblade]

You really have to respect the audacity Den-O pulls here to spend multiple episodes setting up the summer movie with a ton of content that won't make sense unless you go to the theater. Even in other shows with close movie tie-ins you don't see this kind of heavy integration/promotion. I suspect I know why that is, but that will be a topic for a later Kamen Rider Die Watches thread.

This is a fun one, though. I really like having Yuuto and Ryotaro hang out with minimal Imagin interference. It means that the Imagin scenes are extra weird to compensate, but it's nice to see our heroes working together as themselves.