[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 16 - ?FOREVER KING 2018?

It ends up resolving itself smartly, though. We see Sougo actually try to end Oma Zi-O?s reign, instead of just pinky-swearing that he won?t commit even a single genocide, not even on his birthday. There?s actual weight to his decision, not least of which is losing all of his Time Friends. Sougo?s all alone with his eternal guilt and shame, afraid to even think about what being a king could do to the world.

It?s Geiz who motivates Sougo back into becoming Zi-O. A depowered Sougo is still going to risk his life to help people, and that?s enough to convince Geiz that Oma Zi-O is a risk he?s willing to take. Sougo needs to try to make the future he wants to see, instead of accepting a fate he never wanted. There?re risks to everything, and consequences for any decision you make. To live your life convinced that the worst is going to happen? like, man, even Geiz has more optimism than that. Kid stole a Time Mazine and went back fifty years to be a grim executioner and maybe alter history! It?s okay for Sougo to try and save enough people with Time Powers to maybe be a hero instead of a villain. No one knows what the future really holds; not even people in the future.

Seeing a person give up on their dream, no matter how absurd, is just extremely depressing. Even if Sougo giving up on being a king did benefit the people of 2068, that still invalidates Sougo's existence. Wanting to do good for the world, only to be shown that it makes the world worse, yeah, that sucks. It sucks even more that either way, Sougo is left alone. Either he rules the world as Oma Zi-O all alone, or he gives it up and Geiz is just like "problem solved" and has no more incentive to hang around. Not that I can blame Geiz, since he would have a family to be with in a less dystopian version of his future, but it sucks for Sougo to have such an inordinately great yet potentially destructive dream. Like Kaido from Faiz said, it's a curse.

Sougo's problem, at least one of his problems, is that he has too much faith in himself. This can be seen in his interaction with 3 Days Ago Sougo. They get along way too easily, more than a normal human should. Also in that arc, his desire to save Geiz instead of letting him save himself. All this makes Sougo seem narcissistic and like he has difficulty to understand his own faults, even when people like Geiz point them out. This trait is still present in his 2068 self, where Oma Zi-O regards him with a sense of nostalgia and pride, for a version of himself from 50 years ago. I think it's a big deal that the first time Sougo shows any hatred towards himself is when he finally meets Oma Zi-O, who implausibly claims to be the same greatest kindest demon king, despite murdering half of the planet. Oma Zi-O has a ridiculous amount of faith in his younger self, to the point where even being temporarily erased from existence is merely a small inconvenience. But maybe there's a desire for his younger self to surpass him as well, which might be the case now that Geiz is having such a constructive impact on Sougo's mental welfare whenever he's not trying to murder him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

Okay, but imagine if the title character of one of these shows really did just leave half-way through.

Not halfway, but literally the first Kamen Rider, Hongo, who left Japan to fight Shocker abroad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

The scene where Geiz convinces Sougo to take the driver is just iconic. Or at least I think it should be considered an all-time great! Technically speaking, the status quo is actually not that different. Sougo wants to be a king, and Geiz says he's ready to take him down if it goes bad. I love that with this episode though, both characters now have a completely new, stronger resolve behind them. Not only is Sougo choosing to commit to his dream no matter how much he fears the future and how much the whole world is telling him it's a bad decision, he'll do it because he's putting his trust in Geiz to stop him. It's so good...

For sure! Coming after the heartwarming and shippable dynamic of Sento/Ryuuga in the previous season, I feel like Sougo and Geiz needed a scene like this one in the dumpster, where they really get to shout at each other with sincere emotions. It's especially great character development for Geiz. After trying to (try and) stop the rise of Zi-O, now he's here facilitating it instead. It makes sense, pragmatically, as stopping Zi-O just makes it easier for the Time Jackers to appoint their own king. And so far, Sougo's the best candidate for the job. If "greatest kindest demon king" is a relative title, then that's still more applicable to him than to any of the Another Riders. It's not quite at the point where Geiz is willing to call Sougo a friend, but they've definitely reached an important point of mutual understanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

And the reason why throwing away the belt is harder than it sounds is not due to prolonged decision, but it's due to Woz. He'd always have a spare Driver to replace the one that is broken, as if the belt has a case of a Groundhog Day (destroy it, Woz has one, destroy it again, Woz has another, and so on). So Woz technically is the other shit-stirrer too here to make sure the tyrant comes.

Just like the Hyper Zecter. As long as the Zikuu Driver exists in the future, Woz can always bring it back to the present, good as new. Causality works both ways, so even if Sougo tries not to become a king, destiny will find a way to guide him back on that path. All Sougo can do is keep trying to become the greatest kindest demon king in the present, with the help of Geiz as his figurative Sword of Damocles, in hope of making a better future than the one he saw.

Anyway, I have a lot of thoughts about the next arc, so look forward to that in 2019! .... Or is it 2022?

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicrescend0

With the end of Episode 16, we've offically finished Zi-O's first major arc! I overall remember not having much enjoyment of this beginning part on my first watch, it being a bit too weak and even sloppy in places. Now.....I wouldn't say that I suddenly see this first arc as this hidden gem, the issues I saw during my inital watch are still pretty much there. But like, I feel I have a much better grip on Sougo(something that really hindered my first watch), and much better apperication for these early episodes and what they were trying to do, yknow? This episode just really works as both a solid conclusion to the events so far, and a new beginning for the story to start off of.

It's definitely better than the sum of its parts. I liked a bunch of stuff in the first 16 episodes, but very little of it was related to Sougo's desire to be a Good Despot. So it's VERY WEIRD to reach the end of Episode 16 and feel like that character growth is the most memorable aspect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

But other than that, is it not a delay in storytelling but just a character flaw that had to be worked on?

For me, the problem wasn't that he had a sort of obnoxious flaw, but that the show wasn't doing a lot to explain WHY he had that flaw, and it wasn't letting other characters really interrogate the logical errors in Sougo's claims. Taking Sougo to the Misery Fields of 2068 is something the Time Orphans could've done at literally any point in the show, but they can't, because that would resolve the plot too early. So we get a bunch of people acting like I Want To Be A Good Despot is both wacky nonsense, and an unbeatable argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Oma Zi-O has a ridiculous amount of faith in his younger self, to the point where even being temporarily erased from existence is merely a small inconvenience. But maybe there's a desire for his younger self to surpass him as well, which might be the case now that Geiz is having such a constructive impact on Sougo's mental welfare whenever he's not trying to murder him.

I am super into the idea that the menacing, genocidal warlord from the future is also a huge Sougo fan; some weird decades-removed helicopter dad for himself.

I kind of wish Oma Zi-O was the one doing all of the IWAE stuff in the series. Someone make that video!

[Mmicb0b]

also I don't even need to say this but Woz saying "IWAE" became a meme

[AkibaSilver]

Yeah, I can only echo other people when I say this is a good little pair of episodes. Zi-O managing to progress just beyond the "We need every 2 parter to be about a legend rider" and do its own thing, it's cool.

[Fish Sandwich]

(Fish Sandwich also watched Kamen Rider Zi-O - EP16)

I love this episode sooooooooo much. I don't think anything I can say about it would properly get across the extent to which I adore it, so I'm really glad people seem to be in agreement that this one nailed it. Pretty much every Rider show since Double gets its little "season finale" at the end of the year, and for me personally, this one is way up there. Most of it comes down to Sougo and Geiz, of course. It's great character development for both of them, their arcs are intertwined in a way that's super compelling, and honestly, I would go so far as to say it makes all the initial hurdles the show faced with developing Sougo worth it. I mean, it got us here, didn't it? As amazing as this two-parter is, I don't think it would mean anywhere near as much to me if it didn't represent the growth of the series itself at the same time it was doing that for its main Riders. Mouri did real good writing these ones. We came a long way from those OOO episodes in a short time, and a longer way from that premiere in a slightly less short one.

There's also a particular thing about the episode I love, which is just how the belts are used? This goes back to why I liked the Fourze plot in Movie War Ultimatum so much too, but, at the risk of stating the obvious, the whole point of the series is to convince you that belt is real cool. You *want* that thing. It's the whole nature of being a merchandise-driven show. But that isn't necessarily a curse, and I always really appreciate when they do something clever with the inherent demand that a Rider's transformation device needs to be a focal point of the narrative. For instance, one of the most hype things that ever happened in Ex-Aid is in the midpoint two-parter where Genm finally gets taken down, and Ex-Aid does that using Kiriya's Gamer Driver, after Kuroto trashes his own. So like, in spirit, Kiriya is right there, evening the score after the worst Christmas ever. (And this is before even mentioning the whole Reprogramming thing with Maximum Mighty X, of course. That was a really good Ex-Aid episode!) It was a really fresh thing to see in a Rider show, where for a stretch after that, Emu just kept using that belt, and even though he was the same Ex-Aid as always, his transformation device was now also like a symbol of friendship, and that was awesome.

So then you get to this episode of Zi-O, that does both the Fourze and the Ex-Aid thing in one fell swoop, and both of them work just as well as ever. I respected the heck out of Sougo for not hesitating to give up power if having it meant people got hurt, and the fact that from this point on, Zi-O and Geiz are both transforming with Ziku Drivers they gave each other is just... I mean, that's so perfect! Geiz made Zi-O again, right after finally getting rid of that problem. That scene between the two of them is one of the highlights of the entire series for me, and one of the reasons I adore this duo's dynamic so much, and just like with Ex-Aid, I also adore that both of them are always wearing that little reminder of this episode in every fight they get in from here.

And because this episode really was just the best Christmas present, it gave me one of my favorite insert songs in all of Kamen Rider:

I seriously considered writing up a translation of the lyrics for Zi-O Toki no Ouja (that's "ruler of time"), much the way I did for the Message trilogy back in the Kiva thread. A quick search around didn't turn up any existing ones I'm at all satisfied with, but then, I'm not sure I could do *that* much better. But, uh, I'm getting ahead of myself here.

This is just like, the most absolutely perfect theme song for Sougo imaginable. It was composed by Toshihiko Sahashi himself, and as such, it stays true to what I said before I liked about his motifs for Sougo. This is more or less a rousing heroic anthem for Zi-O, but -- especially for an insert theme to be used in fight scenes -- it's not all that upbeat or energetic in tone. There's a sort of ponderous weight to the whole thing, befitting a Sougo who's going through this internal struggle, where he has to decide to press on and believe in himself, even knowing now exactly how severe the consequences of his actions may end up being.

This is all further brought out by the fantastic lyrics, courtesy of-- well, I mean, if you've seen me gush about toku songs enough, I probably don't even need to say it. But yes, believe it or not, I'm extraordinarily fond of the words Shouko Fujibayashi put to this music! They're just super duper poetic and beautiful, and capture so, so much about Sougo. As is usually the case, it feels almost like she knew the characters more than the writers even did at the time, because the impression this song gives of Sougo only becomes more and more fitting as the series moves along.

So again, one of my favorites ever, and its use fits this particular episode so well. Especially because of how unique its vibe is, it's one I find myself singing all the time too, even years later.

...

Oh, and while I'm here! I really need to take time to explicitly mention how much I love the .5 episodes. Probably one of the least controversial opinions I've ever had, but Net Movies are great, and after so many years without them, it felt so nice seeing Rider have an outlet again for goofy meta humor mixed with production trivia. It hurts that they only lasted as long as they did, but at the same time, it really is hard to imagine them keeping up that steam for an entire year, and if you're going to have to call it quits anyway, the year-end break definitely makes sense as a spot to do that.

[Androzani84]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I seriously considered writing up a translation of the lyrics for Zi-O Toki no Ouja (that's "ruler of time"), much the way I did for the Message trilogy back in the Kiva thread. A quick search around didn't turn up any existing ones I'm at all satisfied with, but then, I'm not sure I could do *that* much better.

Don?t worry, my choice of video for when I feature the song has you covered.

[DreamSword]

I liked the 2068 stuff when it came to this two-parter and not much else.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mmicb0b

also I don't even need to say this but Woz saying "IWAE" became a meme

You do not! It is pretty apparent! Also, like, super fun to say. Every Rider should have a hype man!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkibaSilver

Yeah, I can only echo other people when I say this is a good little pair of episodes. Zi-O managing to progress just beyond the "We need every 2 parter to be about a legend rider" and do its own thing, it's cool.

As someone who was very clear about valuing the new story over the nostalgia play, these episodes were pretty much exactly what I was hoping for from this series. Genuinely don't care if this show wants to skip Special Guest Stars whenever it thinks it needs to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Pretty much every Rider show since Double gets its little "season finale" at the end of the year, and for me personally, this one is way up there.

I really enjoyed almost everything you said -- about 90% agreement, kinda iffy on this show's opening arc being Worth It just because of the solid resolution -- but I mostly want to talk about how much my brain is trained towards the Phase 2 Series Breakdown.

The pacing of a Phase 2 Series, or a modern series, maybe (not sure how the Reiwa schedules got borked due to Covid), is so ingrained for me. A dozen or so episodes, Winter Movie, another dozen episodes with the Tertiary Rider, maybe a Sentai film, another dozen episodes to blow up the premise, Summer movie, final stretch of episodes. The rhythm of that is so much a part of my brain being rewritten by Kamen Rider seasons, and the Phase 1 stuff working differently always felt weird. I really like the ways the writing for the season got split into chunks for movies and holidays, and how that created these little discrete Mid-Season Finales and whatever.

I like how it creates this sense of progression, a little plateau for the characters to rest and celebrate their achievement. Very much how I like Kamen Rider seasons to operate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

I liked the 2068 stuff when it came to this two-parter and not much else.

At least Tsukasa left...?

[Daikaijuman54]

As is written in this post, this arc is a really good one.

Now, I went into this series thinking it's main story was just going to be collecting the Riders' powers than going up against Oma Zi-O and the Time Jackers, but when episodes like this shows up, that perception was toppled and I began to enjoy the show more. Not to say this show wasn't holding up as anything grand or anything, but this is where Zi-O peaked for me, and while there are points later that made this even better for me, this is where I think it started to be more than just, "so who's showing up this week?"

Sougo getting to witness what he is supposedly to become and being terribly outmatched, and exploring Sougo's dream to become a king, were all well played here. And Geiz also having a great arc here, continuing to support Sougo, while also swearing to put and end to him if he does turn into a tyrant, at Sougo's request. That moment where they're both accepting this as their path forward is what makes this moment one of the best in Zi-O.

And best boy Woz, who really doesn't stay on one side, and will always remain loyal to his lord. He is the best and his "Rejoice!/Iwae!" will forever be my favorite thing from this season. I'm sure we all knew that, but I just enjoy him that much, as it also makes every form debut 20X better.

[DreamSword]

I ended up making a highlight reel of my personal favorite moments from the HGF commentary track. YT ended up blocking it in its entirety, and the file size is slightly too big for Vimeo, so anyone curious can instead download it here.