[DreadBringer]

For those debating if Alternative is a Rider or not.... let's wait for next episode. And here's another tips to get massive thoughts on episode review.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

In a nutshell, that's what disappointed me about this episode. Things that seemed like they should at least drive an episode, if not fundamentally alter the direction of the show, are just... something that happened? And everyone moves on from it? Like, it's maybe got a slight change to it, but Ren Has To Keep Fighting To Save Eri weirdly didn't feel that different to me now that Eri's awake.

I think, Ren's Contract as a Rider is unrelated to Eri's condition right? Darkwing's still there and still will eat Ren if he doesn't feed him, so it's inevitable that he needs to keep fighting because of how a Rider works in this series. Whenever Eri truly returns or only temporarily awake, if Ren's truly want to change I think he has to deal with his Rider self like, deal with Darkwing (can't think any ways of doing this, I do want some enlightenment of this, correct me if you can), right? The consequences of becoming a Rider, even if you get your wish prematurely, still...

H̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶u̶t̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶f̶e̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶r̶u̶s̶t̶s̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶f̶r̶i̶e̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶E̶r̶i̶.̶

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It's just these loops it feels like the characters are trapped in, where I'd hoped that things would grow, evolve. One of the things I love about Kamen Rider series is that they make changes and have consequences that affect their world and characters. For something as pivotal as Ren Kills and Eri Wakes Up and Yui's Been Attacked to, like, only serve to reinforce the status quo... it bums me out.

The other characters plans are still new (I mean SSSS just recently gets introduced, even if Nakamura already appeared early), just wait until they also get stuck in the loop. I think this series is just hopeless, I can't even think of headcannons to solve this. Dunno if you actually read above, but what other ways Shinji could do to prevent Mirror attacks again, not just for Yui but also everyone else? SSSS are seemingly another one that probably has a way to end all of that, other than Tezuka previously, and they are seemingly ideal for Shinji to work on (at first glance, he stumbles more upon their dark secrets bit by bit).

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I think, Ren's Contract as a Rider is unrelated to Eri's condition right? Darkwing's still there and still will eat Ren if he doesn't feed him, so it's inevitable that he needs to keep fighting because of how a Rider works in this series. Whenever Eri truly returns or only temporarily awake, if Ren's truly want to change I think he has to deal with his Rider self like, deal with Darkwing (can't think any ways of doing this, I do want some enlightenment of this, correct me if you can), right? The consequences of becoming a Rider, even if you get your wish prematurely, still...

The show does push back a little bit on whether Ren's situation has even improved with Eri's recovery ("recovery") when Shinji tries to be all But Now You Don't Have To Fight and Ren reminds him that they're still in a battle to the death. That could be a compelling thing, Ren dedicated to fighting in a Battle that can't help him, trapped by his choices. It's just, that doesn't seem to be what the show is dramatizing? If Eri recovered, you can do a storyline where Ren has to keep fighting, but only for his own survival. But if Eri's perpetually only 1% alive or whatever, you've still got Ren fighting for her survival, not his own. Nothing's really changed in the nuts and bolts of the show, and that's a disappointment for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

The other characters plans are still new (I mean SSSS just recently gets introduced, even if Nakamura already appeared early), just wait until they also get stuck in the loop. I think this series is just hopeless, I can't even think of headcannons to solve this. Dunno if you actually read above, but what other ways Shinji could do to prevent Mirror attacks again, not just for Yui but also everyone else? SSSS are seemingly another one that probably has a way to end all of that, other than Tezuka previously, and they are seemingly ideal for Shinji to work on (at first glance, he stumbles more upon their dark secrets bit by bit).

But, like, I think that's a failure of the writing, not of the concept. There've been plenty of places on this show where things seemed hopeless, and the writing provided an in-character, in-universe solution. The Zolda/Ouja fight from just a couple of episodes ago! That was one where Kitaoka had no chance, until he had every advantage. Plenty of other characters, Reiko being a prime candidate, have found ways out of dead ends. Right now, though, all three of the main characters seem to lack, if not direction, then a plan of action. It's cool if it's just one (Shinji is someone who will totally charge in without a plan), but when it's all three... ugh.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The show does push back a little bit on whether Ren's situation has even improved with Eri's recovery ("recovery") when Shinji tries to be all But Now You Don't Have To Fight and Ren reminds him that they're still in a battle to the death.

Hmm... so what you expect is still about Ren keep fighting.... just for his survival. Either way that would've Ren also trying to hide his Rider activity like this episode to save his relationship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

But, like, I think that's a failure of the writing, not of the concept. There've been plenty of places on this show where things seemed hopeless, and the writing provided an in-character, in-universe solution.

Well Zolda/Ouja was merely about taking down 1 opponent, but to reach your actual big goal (Immortality for Kitaoka, or the others)? Yeah that's the hopeless part I speak about. As for Reiko she's kinda like Shinji there, constantly denied of the information they seek; Kitaoka for the former, SSSS for the latter.

[Kamen Rider Die]

MASKED RIDER RYUKI EPISODE 38



This one felt better to watch. The Ren stuff, it's kind-of nails on a chalkboard to me right now, but all of the stuff with Shinji and the Second Secret Science Society, yes.

A lot of it is the way that Ryuki as a show seems to prioritize motivation over action, how why you're doing something is maybe more important than what you do. Shinji may rarely have a plan of action, but he has a commitment to his principles, and maybe that's the best thing he can have. Because a plan with muddled intent, or conflicting desires, that's a recipe for disaster.

It's also a recipe for a tense, twisty episode, and I really needed that right now. We get a lot more detail about the Second Secret Science Society, what their deal is, and how they're going to stop Shiro. They're of one mind on their goal, but they're at odds on why they're doing it. (I can't really remember their names yet, so this might be harder to understand than usual.) Angry Man has seen his friends die due to Shiro's schemes, and he'll do whatever he has to in order to stop him once for all. Professor views their mission as serving the greater good, a necessary sacrifice to save more lives. Intern is looking for certainty, first from Professor's view that the ends justify the means, then from Shinji's view that there's no such thing as a good sacrifice.

Intern -- Sato? I think his name was Sato. -- Sato is a great way to explore the Second Secret Science Society, and a great way for Shinji to feel vital again in this show. There's the exposition necessary to understand what the Second Secret Science Society is doing, and why they're doing it, and it's all told in a dramatically interesting way. I love it when antagonist groups have dissension. I love it that this group has so much of a headstart on the other characters in reaching their goal, but minor divisions end up magnifying into executions. All of that makes for great TV. But the way that Shinji's attitude wavers slightly, then solidifies around his righteous anger that Murder Is Always Wrong, and how that becomes an immovable center to a show that was almost swallowed up by indecision and repetition... it all really made this episode for me. I like how Sato pushes Shinji towards saving many at the cost of one, but then Shinji pulls him back towards trying to save everyone.

Except, uh, Sato also murders Alternative (awesome name, awesome suit, I love how it drops all of the flourish of the Rider suits for as much of a Mad Science aesthetic as you can get from the Ryuki template and still look like a bug) when Alternative jumps Ryuki. I dug the ambiguity of that scene, of Shinji being apoplectic at Sato's Oh Did I Do That attitude at murdering someone, how you can see that rage on Shinji's face start to shift into regret and confusion, how Sato doesn't seem to grasp the enormity of his actions while still feeling liberated by them. It's this thing of Shinji never quite getting a pure win in the Rider Battles, of the show finding a way to complicate all of his choices. I actually really like that part of the show, how it's never easy for Shinji to live by his code. This episode did an awesome job of really interrogating both what the Second Secret Science Society and Shinji stand for.

(Also, Ren runs through Ren's Greatest Hits, riding on his motorcycle and taking Eri to the beach, and I can't bring myself to talk about it more than that. If you all have strong feelings about Ren's storyline right now, have at it.)

[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

[
Intern -- Sato? I think his name was Sato. -- Sato is a great way to explore the Second Secret Science Society, and a great way for Shinji to feel vital again in this show. There’s the exposition necessary to understand what the Second Secret Science Society is doing, and why they’re doing it, and it’s all told in a dramatically interesting way. I love it when antagonist groups have dissension. I love it that this group has so much of a headstart on the other characters in reaching their goal, but minor divisions end up magnifying into executions. All of that makes for great TV. But the way that Shinji’s attitude wavers slightly, then solidifies around his righteous anger that Murder Is Always Wrong, and how that becomes an immovable center to a show that was almost swallowed up by indecision and repetition… it all really made this episode for me. I like how Sato pushes Shinji towards saving many at the cost of one, but then Shinji pulls him back towards trying to save everyone.

Except, uh, Sato also murders Alternative (awesome name, awesome suit, I love how it drops all of the flourish of the Rider suits for as much of a Mad Science aesthetic as you can get from the Ryuki template and still look like a bug) when Alternative jumps Ryuki. I dug the ambiguity of that scene, of Shinji being apoplectic at Sato’s Oh Did I Do That attitude at murdering someone, how you can see that rage on Shinji’s face start to shift into regret and confusion, how Sato doesn’t seem to grasp the enormity of his actions while still feeling liberated by them. It’s this thing of Shinji never quite getting a pure win in the Rider Battles, of the show finding a way to complicate all of his choices. I actually really like that part of the show, how it’s never easy for Shinji to live by his code. This episode did an awesome job of really interrogating both what the Second Secret Science Society and Shinji stand for.

Oh man, you're starting to get into the stuff I really love about Tiger. I'll save my full thoughts for later to avoid spoilers, but I find the dude's motivations fascinating.

[Deepsea]

This is not relevant to the discussion, but there are ryuki stage show riders, and they look kind of terrible.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

Oh man, you're starting to get into the stuff I really love about Tiger. I'll save my full thoughts for later to avoid spoilers, but I find the dude's motivations fascinating.

Yeah, I don't want to be all Tiger Saved This Show, but, man, I'm struggling to think of what I'd've gotten out of this episode without those characters. The Kitaoka/Ore phone call? That was some choice comedy. It's fun to have a semi-flustered Kitaoka. That's a dude who knows how to get laughs. Also, man, Reiko's completely got his number, and I love it. I love how outmaneuvered he is. Give them a fast-talking spin-off, where they solve mirror crimes. Reiko Time: Ryuki, please and thank you.

Anyway, yes, sorry, Tiger. Very interested in where that story goes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepsea

This is not relevant to the discussion, but there are ryuki stage show riders, and they look kind of terrible.

It's not not relevant. I try to watch whatever stage shows I can get my hands on. They're neat! It's a much more juvenile version of Kamen Rider, but I enjoy how earnest and cheesy they are. It's like, recalibrate your expectations towards I Hope This Doesn't Suck Too Bad and you'll have a good time. Hopefully I'll be able to turn up that Ryuki stage show. Thanks for the heads-up!

[Deepsea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It's not not relevant. I try to watch whatever stage shows I can get my hands on. They're neat! It's a much more juvenile version of Kamen Rider, but I enjoy how earnest and cheesy they are. It's like, recalibrate your expectations towards I Hope This Doesn't Suck Too Bad and you'll have a good time. Hopefully I'll be able to turn up that Ryuki stage show. Thanks for the heads-up!

Well I found this youtube which has stage shows from 1 to 4 years ago, so that's a thing.

Edit: also I found this and it's very funny

Edit 2: Also torrents for the musical

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It’s also a recipe for a tense, twisty episode, and I really needed that right now. We get a lot more detail about the Second Secret Science Society, what their deal is, and how they’re going to stop Shiro.

I've always refered to them by name. Angry Man = Hajime Nakamura, Professor = Hideyuki Kagawa, Intern = Satoru Toujou. All usually refered by their surnames.

Nakamura is the only one with different motivation from them as he only wanted to get revenge, also is the one threatening his teammate Toujou (he's abrasive too to his teammates...really dark reflection of Ren!), and almost (ironically) went Yui on Room 401. Nakamura's different motivation of revenge is the one getting him killed because of the revenge motif, hence "he's not a hero". Kagawa instead is a dark reflection to Shinji that both wants to stop the Rider War, but Kagawa's an extremist.

If only there are more people like Kagawa, but not being a straw vulcan extremist, his talent can be used to save people from Mirror Monsters by creating mass Advent Decks for people, nope, not for them to fight, leave it blank with no need to contract monsters, just for people to use to Henshin and escape the Mirror World when pulled there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Intern -- Sato? I think his name was Sato. -- Sato is a great way to explore the Second Secret Science Society, and a great way for Shinji to feel vital again in this show.

His debut episode name in Japanese is a pun of the Tiger user, "Enter Tiger" is "Tiger Toujou" in Japanese (Sato-chan is what Sanako calls him, others usually goes by Toujou). Toujou is the one becoming the temporary MVP of Atori between strangers (instead of Ren with waiter background), but Shinji, you only wanted to live there right? Not doing waiter's job shouldn't be a problem if you still live. There goes Shinji's chance of stopping the war knowing the truth of SSSS. What makes this one different for Shinji compared to previous episode where you compained about him merely asking for SSSS help again? Now he's back to square one again, even more hopeless that he has no alternative (pun intended), no other way to stop the war, hesitating again over the morton's fork in his code, only can hold up his principles of no-sacrifice by protecting someone (who happens to be his best friend), which goes against a known way to stop the war, seemingly making the war possibly go longer, aside from the mystery if SSSS is right or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Except, uh, Sato also murders Alternative (awesome name, awesome suit, I love how it drops all of the flourish of the Rider suits for as much of a Mad Science aesthetic as you can get from the Ryuki template and still look like a bug) when Alternative jumps Ryuki.

Alternative is not a Kamen Rider as Toujou stated in this episode (ironically being the one with bug motif), for the debate last time. I gotta hand it to Shinji's suspicions of being fishy when Toujou, someone he saw at SSSS, comes to Atori, and figures out that he may be the one hunting Yui (thank Okubo too for allowing him to leave, despite his annoyance to Shinji in previous episode), especially the way he leers at her. He thinks it can't be a total coincidence. Shinji also practically wins the fight with Alternative, he just attacks from back. Though his assumptions were still wrong, Nakamura is the one becoming Alternative, he was half-right that it's SSSS' plan attempt, and gets him to act. I want to know what Nakamura meant when he says Shinji is wrong/misled?

Alternative being a carbon copy, is a total opposite of Shiro's Riders in every aspect. Alternative's visor speaks with a female voice instead of a male one, its belt spins vertically instead of horizontally when it appears, and its Advent Cards are swiped across the visor instead of being inserted into them. Alternative's Advent Cards are also laid out lengthwise (name on the right, image in center, stats on left) instead of the regular heightwise (name on top, image in center, stats on bottom). It's sword can also fire blue flames which makes for long range attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

(Also, Ren runs through Ren’s Greatest Hits, riding on his motorcycle and taking Eri to the beach, and I can’t bring myself to talk about it more than that. If you all have strong feelings about Ren’s storyline right now, have at it.)

The end of Ren's arc here. His first and potentially last date for a while. Another thing I can say for Ren is... look at this bromance upgrade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Yeah, I don't want to be all Tiger Saved This Show, but, man, I'm struggling to think of what I'd've gotten out of this episode without those characters. The Kitaoka/Ore phone call? That was some choice comedy. It's fun to have a semi-flustered Kitaoka. That's a dude who knows how to get laughs. Also, man, Reiko's completely got his number, and I love it. I love how outmaneuvered he is. Give them a fast-talking spin-off, where they solve mirror crimes. Reiko Time: Ryuki, please and thank you.

Sad to see dwindling faith over the leads. Now it's probably seen what can be problematic for Shinji. Also for spin-off idea, like Kitaoka would actually agree to cooperate like that. He loves Reiko yeah but that'd lead into another thing other than that. Kitaoka still doesn't really realize what she's up to at the end to Asakura.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Nakamura is the only one with different motivation from them as he only wanted to get revenge, also is the one threatening his teammate Toujou (he's abrasive too to his teammates...really dark reflection of Ren!), and almost (ironically) went Yui on Room 401. Nakamura's different motivation of revenge is the one getting him killed because of the revenge motif, hence "he's not a hero". Kagawa instead is a dark reflection to Shinji that both wants to stop the Rider War, but Kagawa's an extremist.

Interesting analysis! I think, for me, it's more that the three of them are on a spectrum, with Sato being caught in the middle between Revenge/Anger and Duty/Sacrifice. He's internalized both motivations, and it leads to the memorable conclusion from this episode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Toujou is the one becoming the temporary MVP of Atori between strangers (instead of Ren with waiter background), but Shinji, you only wanted to live there right? Not doing waiter's job shouldn't be a problem if you still live. There goes Shinji's chance of stopping the war knowing the truth of SSSS. What makes this one different for Shinji compared to previous episode where you compained about him merely asking for SSSS help again?

This one worked better for me because Shinji's maybe still not effective on a plot level, but he's enormously effective on a moral level. His scenes with Sato had great performances, character-driven conflicts, and a chance for Shinji's specific brand of heroism to get the spotlight in a really rewarding way. It just worked great for me.