[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

She at least knocked out that hostage taker before. Plus she defeated a half-dozen ninjas in the movie. Hana'll fight pretty much anyone who gets in her face.

Well other than certain actual dangers like the Imagins of the week. Also don't lump the actual human adversaries like hostage taker or ninjas with people just acting as a (convincing) performer in a show!

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 30 - “MADAM, HOW ABOUT THE FIREWORKS”

The Deneb/Yuuto thread is terrific, with Deneb trying to start a new life away from Yuuto. Deneb feels like he’s a burden to Yuuto, and he opts to run away from home.

Feels more like Deneb trying to help Yuuto again, but this time he has to act on his own, regardless of Yuuto's plead. It gives me thoughts about Deneb's sense of right and wrong doesn't have much to do with the law, reminds of Yusuke (Godai, not Sieg's baby).... who stole a police bike at one point. Deneb going to Ryotaro is his way to help Yuuto, and it not going super great... probably Ryotaro's bad luck affected him too?! Momo is just generally hostile to others regardless of drama or feelings, though I don't know what's Momo's deal to act that way to Deneb, likely bugging Ryotaro? Because at first Momo wants usual Imagin contract with Ryotaro, then he warms up to Ryotaro and cares about him, at least more openly compared to like, other Taros, but now against Deneb...

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The Airi/Ryotaro story is a little mirror to the Deneb/Yuuto one, the example of how fleeting ill will can be when you really care about someone. I love that the only real speech about Feelings in this one is when Ryotaro explains what siblings are like to Deneb. Yuuto gives a huffy little I’m Not Mad Now Come Home And Shut Up tantrum to fix things with Deneb, and Airi and Ryotaro don’t even say anything about their fight being over. It’s just, like, the sun went down. There are fireworks. Let’s all just hang out and relax.

Ryotaro makes a point about sibling or loved one fights that the heat aren't really malicious yeah, but I believe Ryotaro should know enough to differentiate between sibling slapsticks and actual strife between someone, especially for someone who had been bullied (people can make light of bullying as sibling slapsticks or such). But Ryotaro explains what siblings are while him with Airi are completely, I still believe the closest ones are the ones who are in harmony like them (as you previously said, these 2 are sweet toku hero and his saintly sister). But I guess the more appropriate comparison was the Taros Imagins who do bicker and fight, as 3 of them are morally ambiguous, where of course Kintaros will also be caught in although he's mostly respond by sleeping.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The Fireworks Family story is the linking element, and it gives us fireworks, but I sort of hate it? It’s trying to do the same thing as the Deneb and Ryotaro threads, where Some Emotions Are So Big You Don’t Need Words, but this dude abandoned his family for five years because he wanted to make fireworks. That is a way bigger thing than inconveniencing a friend or fighting over culinary chemical warfare! I don’t know how or why this guy’s wife is supposed to forgive him, let alone support him? Beyond a poorly articulated sense that he wants his family back, he doesn’t really seem to regret his actions or take responsibility for what happened. He’s just like When I’m Great At Fireworks She’ll Come Back, and the show’s like Yup? It’s a weirdly dark monster plot featuring a horrifyingly bad husband and father, who gets what he wants in the end? Weird! Did not like this story or how it ended.

This is a real conflict and dispute between family, it's about how, apparently at 5 years ago, the couple didn't match as the husband and wife have different approach, and the husband instead left the family for his own dreams, or rather, to proof that his dreams aren't just meaningless enthusiast. I think in that guy's wife side, she should accept the difference and flaws that your significant other have, albeit of course the significant others should also want to improve themselves. The wife shouldn't look down or underestimate something that she sees as trivial. I guess the ending just wants to show that the husband's interest isn't a laughing matter, and that the wife accepts him more after this proof. But I guess the issue here is how violent and overboard the husband reacts to the family complaint? Compared to above, probably this should show that not all bickerings or dispute are sibling slapstick like between Yuuto and Deneb? Or support about families acting like this (and make light of that as something like sibling tantrum throwing) like how Naomi can potentially do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

THE BAGGAGE CAR

-An astonishing amount of great gags in this one, but my two favorite ones were the crime scene set dressing of Milk Dipper (the chalk outline around the teddy bear!) and the mother scolding her child for staring at Deneb. I love the conceit that Deneb In A Summer Hat just reads as some unfortunately deformed individual, and society shouldn’t make him feel bad.

Multiple times said, Den-O is a series about gags. Mother scolding at child for staring at Deneb? Seems like they don't know about good monsters in KR series. Well, superhero shows can inflict bad influence instead on certain kids who only like them for the cool violence and fights instead of the helpful acts.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

does she come back as an anime character

Man, that's a bummer. I honestly don't know if this is going to sink the next 20 episodes for me or what. Hiyori being gone from Kabuto was such a distracting development, and... ugh. Ugh!

Total bummer.

Anime cameo of her in Hayate the Combat Butler ep. 16, along with other Den-O stuff.


Also from where I've arrived in Riders discussions other than this forum, I was wondering if people were apathetic of Hiyori being Gon from Kabuto, or more relieved to have her being replaced by an action-based girl in Renge.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Yeah, I'll try to be fair to it as a story. It's not like Hana's arc was what I was loving the most about Den-O. (It was usually sort of boring and nonsensical?) That performer, though. She was such a charismatic presence on the DenLiner, and I'm definitely going to miss her.

Well she maybe is a charismatic presence, but I hope this won't be a message where you have to be like the Imagin part (even if they deserve it) nagging and aggressive to be like that (Some people equate being assertive as being aggressive).

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Momo is just generally hostile to others regardless of drama or feelings, though I don't know what's Momo's deal to act that way to Deneb, likely bugging Ryotaro? Because at first Momo wants usual Imagin contract with Ryotaro, then he warms up to Ryotaro and cares about him, at least more openly compared to like, other Taros, but now against Deneb...

I think it's a few things with Momo here. The first is that Deneb's help got Momo shot up and led the monster to escape, so that's Strike 1. The second is that Momo can see that Deneb is abandoning Yuuto out of shame, and that sort of melodrama will always irk Momo. That's Strike 2.

Strike 3 is stepping on Momo's catchphrase and posing, which is the last straw. Denim's lucky he didn't get detonated for that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Mother scolding at child for staring at Deneb? Seems like they don't know about good monsters in KR series. Well, superhero shows can inflict bad influence instead on certain kids who only like them for the cool violence and fights instead of the helpful acts.

Maybe they did know about good monsters, and the mom was just trying not to make Deneb feel bad about his terrible and unconvincing disguise?

KID: Mom, look!
MOM: Son, what did we talk about? If a good imagination monster from the end of time puts on a disguise, just act like it works. Let them have their privacy. I didn't raise you to be disrespectful of other people or creatures! (...that hat, though. Yikes.)

[Fish Sandwich]

You know Die, the way you started off that last episode post gave me intense déjÃ* vu I was having trouble pegging for a bit, but then I realized it was because it was reminding me of how that series wrap-up post I did for Kabuto started. Like I'll honestly be shocked if you tell you weren't taking some degree of inspiration from my now well-documented love of Hiyori there, as you use the visuals of the opening as a springboard to talk about the importance of the female lead in this Kamen Rider show.

Actually, on the subject of Den-O's opening – this is a perfect chance to mention I love those visuals just as much as Kabuto's? They share a lot of the same heavily stylish touches, which is maybe not a surprise since, while this is another case where the series doesn't specifically credit anyone for the OP, I have heard before that the first episode's director usually handles that kind of thing (hence why exceptions like Kabuto have the separate credit?), and for Den-O, that's Ryuuta Tasaki. So yeah, between his talents and yours, it's definitely not surprising to see you able to pull so much meaning out of just a few quick shots there.

And you know what? While you're a little too bummed out to deal with this episode right now, and since I happen to be feeling nostalgia for the Kabuto thread, how about another one of these for old times' sake?

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 31 - “AI NEED YU�

Okay, so, first of all, easily my favorite Den-O episode title. Maybe it's just because it's such a delightfully obvious bit of wordplay? Maybe it's just because it reminds me of End of Evangelion? Or maybe it's because, unlike Die, I'm actually a pretty huge fan of the soap opera style dramatic arc concerning Airi and Sakurai, so episodes of this show that focus in on that tend to be favorites of mine.

If I had to knock the episode for one thing, it'd probably end up being the direction. 31/32 are handled by Osamu Kaneda, his second set for the show after Ryutaros' debut in 13/14, and his work is ~maybe~ not as remarkable as the other directors on the show? I'm not sure if I even want to criticize it all that much, as I honestly think the very straightforward approach he tends to take lends itself well to Den-O's particular atmosphere, especially in a more mellow episode like this. But it's hard to say it's doing anything to really elevate the material, either, and there's not a ton of action in this first part for him to show off the more elaborate and impressive stunts that often mark episodes he worked on.

The material he's working with is thankfully pretty good to begin with then? "Not exceptional" is a fair evaluation, but there's a lot here to love. The ridiculous nature of the setup, I mean, I can't even pretend that bothers me. Den-O is a show all about dumb things happening on the surface, so an episode that uses an even more ridiculous than usual episodic premise to slide into a much bigger picture capital P Plot episode... I sort of think it's brilliant?

The thing about Den-O is the plots basically never matter, because it's all just an excuse to do things with the characters, and while I can't speak that well for how this fits into the bigger picture, not having seen the series in a while, this episode does some great things with these characters.

The cold open meets my criteria for a great cold open, quickly putting the mystery of the Zeronos cards in the spotlight and making it clear that answers are coming sooner rather than later. Yuuto fades just a bit into the background of the first part, but I love the brief glimpses you get into all the emotional baggage he refuses to let anyone know he's carrying. It's nice that his inability to be upfront is rooted in his character, and on that same token, there was a conversation he has with Ryoutarou that I found did something pretty interesting with him, too – having him start to admit to himself the reason he hasn't tried telling Airi the truth is probably because he's scared more than anything. Again, only a brief moment, but between that, and the way the script also slips in a reminder of his refusal to properly see Yuuto as being Sakurai's past self, they're moments with proper weight that do a ton to inform you about why the characters behave the way they do.

That kind of attention to characterization is what defines Kobyashi's writing, and it extends to every facet of this episode, from Airi going out of her way to turn down Slimy Bank Dude's "proposal" without a second thought, after misleading the audience to think that the drama is that she might accept, to the very end, where the excuse to keep Den-O from getting out of a pinch with the power of Climax Form is that Ryutaros is too childishly proud to admit he can't win by himself with Gun Form. Even the action cliffhanger is about the characters first and foremost.

So yeah, I don't know. Maybe not the best episode ever, but certainly far from the worst, in my book. Hopefully the second opinion is appreciated!

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Like I'll honestly be shocked if you tell you weren't taking some degree of inspiration from my now well-documented love of Hiyori there, as you use the visuals of the opening as a springboard to talk about the importance of the female lead in this Kamen Rider show.

I may have been subconsciously (because the loss of both characters feels very similar in how everything that comes after is suspect), but... man, my memory is terrible. Terrible. TokuNation member MrWilliamGraham stopped by my store a couple weeks ago, and in the process of talking about Kabuto I needed to go to the Wiki to look up Hiyori's name. And that was maybe a month after I finished watching Kabuto? My brain does not retain this stuff very well! It's like a sponge that fills up and gets wrung out every few months. So, absolutely, there's a chance that your post got me thinking along those lines, but not in a way that I was trying to reference.

I think we both, for all of our disagreements, come at these characters the same way. There's a freedom in the women of Kamen Rider to explore different types of heroism; different shapes of heroes. The loss of that part of the narrative feels especially damaging for how fragile it is, how ancillary it can feel. When there's a really great performer finding something really powerful in their performance, and then it's so unique to begin with, the absence there is greater than one person not being around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Den-O is a show all about dumb things happening on the surface, so an episode that uses an even more ridiculous than usual episodic premise to slide into a much bigger picture capital P Plot episode... I sort of think it's brilliant?

God bless you. Never change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

That kind of attention to characterization is what defines Kobyashi's writing, and it extends to every facet of this episode, from Airi going out of her way to turn down Slimy Bank Dude's "proposal" without a second thought, after misleading the audience to think that the drama is that she might accept, to the very end, where the excuse to keep Den-O from getting out of a pinch with the power of Climax Form is that Ryutaros is too childishly proud to admit he can't win by himself with Gun Form. Even the action cliffhanger is about the characters first and foremost.

There's a subplot in here that could make me really appreciate the second part, and it's how this chapter is about four characters who are afraid of Airi's autonomy? Ryutaros is ready to murder everyone who looks at Airi funny, Yuuto and Ryotaro are concerned about what could happen to Airi if she learns the truth, and the main adversary in this one is some jerk who's trying to blackmail her into marriage! Every man (and man-shaped monster) in this story is scared of what'll happen if Airi starts making informed decisions for herself, and that's a really intriguing premise, if done correctly. I don't... I'm not sure the show is going to do it correctly (serious Airi plots have not worked out to my general satisfaction!), but it's making some possibly inadvertent points that I find interesting.

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Hopefully the second opinion is appreciated!

Always! I love it when people want to talk about what's going on in these episodes, even if (especially if?) they're getting something else out of them. I'm looking for conversation, not consensus. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[Switchblade]

I think I kind of remember this episode. Going into it, it really didn't look very familiar and even now I don't remember much of how this arc goes beyond it giving a better explanation of how Yuuto's powers work. I was honestly a bit nervous going in, as Everybody Loves Airi is not my favorite flavor of Den-O. I liked it better than I feared I would, though, as it was another good example of Airi being a lot deeper and more resolute than she appears on the surface. Would I have rather seen her throw a bicycle at the debt collector creep? Yes, yes I would. The confrontation we did get was a satisfying alternative, though.

So I've always found the story of Sakurai and Airi to be equal parts fascinating and frustrating. The show really wants to bill them as star-crossed lovers (stargazing snuggle count is up to 5, btw), but it's hard to make it work when she doesn't remember that he exists and he's just a dude in a trenchcoat and two hats who shows up for ten seconds every other episode. Yeah, we get Yuuto, but it's always been clear that this isn't the same dude, it's him when he was a jerk teenager and he barely knows Airi at all. It doesn't not work, but it also doesn't really work.

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by Switchblade

So I've always found the story of Sakurai and Airi to be equal parts fascinating and frustrating. The show really wants to bill them as star-crossed lovers (stargazing snuggle count is up to 5, btw), but it's hard to make it work when she doesn't remember that he exists and he's just a dude in a trenchcoat and two hats who shows up for ten seconds every other episode. Yeah, we get Yuuto, but it's always been clear that this isn't the same dude, it's him when he was a jerk teenager and he barely knows Airi at all. It doesn't not work, but it also doesn't really work.

It's definitely a plot that needs some link between Yuuto and Airi that feels dynamic, but all we're given is blank stares and evasion. It's like the show wants this to be a Doomed Romance, but all they're giving us is Doomed? No real Romance?

There's a neat bit in this one where Yuuto's dilemma with Airi is revealed to be fate-based. He's supposed to become this man that Airi loves, but he isn't that guy yet. Worse, even when he becomes that guy, he'll disappear and she'll end up forgetting about him. It's a depressing future that Yuuto somehow is failing to live up to. It's no wonder this kid is so grumpy and stressed out!

On the other hand, Airi is unaware of her relationship with Sakurai, and doesn't see Yuuto as anything more than Ryotaro's friend. There's zero(nos) chemistry between them, and absolutely no intention to change that. Airi mostly doesn't think about Yuuto, and Yuuto is weird and closed-off around her. He's a child, she's an adult. He knows he ends up with her, but he's not really attracted to her, at least that the show's felt like dramatizing. (Because it would look very weird! He's way younger than her, developmentally!) And she's not pining for Sakurai, so...

It's an interesting enough idea, What If You Loved Someone And Lost Them And Then They Showed Back Up As An Unlikeable Asshole Who Isn't Here To Make Friends, but the show sort of presents it as a complete concept, rather than anything that needs to be worked at or attended to. It presumes a level of audience investment in these two somehow making it work (for a future value of Making It Work) that's like, not a goal of mine as a viewer? I don't care if Airi and Sakurai/Yuuto have a happy future/past? I'd rather she just got on with her life, as she's been doing fairly successfully for the last while?

Yeah, weird plot.

[Sunred]

On a side note, recently learned that Ryotaro and Agito's kid god are leaving their agency and forming their own. Fun fact they can be found in the live-action adaptation of Rurouni Kenshin and Bakuman as co-stars.

[Kurona]

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Originally Posted by Sunred

On a side note, recently learned that Ryotaro and Agito's kid god are leaving their agency and forming their own. Fun fact they can be found in the live-action adaptation of Rurouni Kenshin and Bakuman as co-stars.

Oh, cool; good for them! I guess god isn't too far removed from time traveler, so they can make it work

[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 31 - “AI NEED YU”

But, y’know, Hana’s gone now. That post is never going to get written.

I was sad watching this episode. I can’t pretend I was viewing it objectively, ready to go on another DenLiner adventure with the gang. The whole experience was diminished. Knowing Hana wouldn’t be back, or the actor wouldn’t be back… this episode would’ve needed to be exceptional just to make me feel not horrible.

The actor not being back is the worse part IMO, and not in a way like someone later. Actors not returning again has happened not only for someone who got stopped in middle part of the series though. Not that it's a good thing, but at least for being sick, can be hoped that it's temporary and they can be back (though there's Kabuto one before, but the later part of Kabuto...). I probably will wait about your elaboration to the intro scene though.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The other part of that opening bit I really loved was Airi’s laugh, the semi-out-of-character reaction to something Ryotaro’s actor probably said to her. Airi’s quirky mindfulness is a well that the show keeps coming back to, because it’s refreshing to experience. She’s like a home that Ryotaro can always return to, and the last storyline really enforced that idea.

So, yeah, inevitably you need to do storylines where that’s disrupted. Or, I don’t know, maybe not inevitably? Maybe it’s okay to have something that isn’t jeopardized or threatened? Maybe Airi’s happiness and emotional safety doesn’t need to be the crux of a cliffhanger? I don’t know. Stories need stakes, conflict builds character, but having Hana gone at the same time that Airi’s under attack… it’s too much. It’s too much for me to handle, honestly. I don’t like sad episodes of Den-O a whole lot, and this one was just an all-the-way-through bummer to watch.

Didn't expect this reaction regarding Airi considering your reaction to the Airimirer trend or Milk Dipper scene, or the keeping the truth part, and your reaction to the previous episode that it's horror to have an episode about a contest that ends up with an Airi date. I don't think that Airi's laugh is out of character? She regularly acts like that in Milk Dipper especially when Ryou-chan returns. And well, Fujishiro is of course, an Airimirer, so it will be just as similar as the ones you consider slimy; Ozaki and Miura. Though I wonder if Fujishiro isn't an Airimirer, you would consider that kind of antagonist as entertaining and charismatic... Fujishiro is someone that cannot comprehend decency it seems, that he focuses on anything that'd easy to attract those that are shallow, like money, looks, position.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

A lot of it was my mindset, which wasn’t ever going to be great. But having the rest of the story be focused on some slimy banker concocting an incredibly illegal ten million yen loan with Airi’s name on it to blackmail her into marrying him, and the climactic threat is that she’ll learn the truth that her brother’s been hiding from her for months that he definitely should’ve told her already… I didn’t like this.

And regarding the truth that Ryotaro keeps away from Airi, this is for important reason that she's aware too and is a part of Airi's classic Japanese feminity part, which is still spoiler-y.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

THE BAGGAGE CAR

-The idea of a banker just walking in and saying You Owe Us Ten Million Yen is stupid. It’s just a stupid idea. It breaks the reality of the Magical Time Train show, if you can believe it. I can sort of vaguely see Airi not rocking the boat, since that’s her nature, but just shrugging her shoulders as they repossess Milk Dipper, her parents’ shop and her only livelihood, is maybe too far. The bigger problem is the Airimirers, who never think to, like, call the cops? I’m not sure someone can just show up with a contract you never signed and take everything you own? It’s just a dumb idea that I was not in a charitable enough mood to overlook.

Airi is a yamato nadeshiko, which means a woman who embodies classic Japanese feminity. She's pretty, caring, excellent cook, and for what you say Airi not rocking the boat as her nature and shrugging her shoulders, Airi's someone who is completely unflappable. And for Ozaki and Miura (well, Fujishiro is also an Airimirer... right?) calling the cops, it's unknown if someone like Fujishiro can be taken down easily, he'd probably have wide connection to protect himself from that, and moreover, at the end he got an Imagin, which, would remind me to Ouja before, can bail him out of prisons, as being possessed by Imagin gives you super strength.

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I don't think that Airi's laugh is out of character? She regularly acts like that in Milk Dipper especially when Ryou-chan returns.

She's always happy to see him, but she doesn't bust out laughing. She's too low-key for that.

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Though I wonder if Fujishiro isn't an Airimirer, you would consider that kind of antagonist as entertaining and charismatic...

Not really? He's just a scheming, entitled creep. There's not much to him than menace, and I find his menace alternately ridiculous and pathetic.