[Enchilada645]

Oh, no one's made the joke

Zi-O was so good, there's a Zi-O II!

[DreamSword]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Definitely for the worse! I'm not sure it'd feel like a better tribute to Ryuki if ORE Journal was a hollowed-out newsroom run by Venture Capital jerks who are outsourcing all of their investigations to aggregation sites and making everything a slideshow! Feels like it'd be more of a bummer!

Beyond that, a chunk of this story is about dealing with emotional setbacks and trying to find a way forward. I'm not sure that works for Shinji if ORE Journal is a thriving enterprise? It needs to be imperiled in order to be saved, you know?

Not really what I was getting at, but sure. This is all hinging on this being Shinji's' story anyway when it so isn't by comparison. Even then though, getting rid of a major part of Ryuki isn't exactly a necessity to pull a tale with this theme off.

Quote:

Well, things are heightened for the sake of this episode's story. I don't think we're supposed to believe that Sougo is constantly racked with homicidal whims or suicidal ideation, but won't let it show. It's that Sougo isn't an all-the-time happy good guy like the Time Orphans assume, because no one ever is. It's a story that's partially about them making assumptions about Sougo, not about them missing clues or anything. If he'd been Nearly Evil a bunch of times but overcame it, I'm not sure the Time Orphans could make a great case for trusting Sougo implicitly.

I'm not even asking for it be some constant thing he had to deal with in a ton of episodes. Just show it off like, once or twice. Then atleast there's some foundation for Mirror Shinji to stand on, rather than it being some informed thing that the audience is meant to accept and/or to appease the people who don't like Sogo.

And if the story is really meant to be about "assumptions" towards Sogo, not only has that already been done much better(see: almost the entire rest of the show), but it also feels like a backhand to the audience who was jiving with him: "Oh what, you thought Sogo was an all around decent person because he showed you words and actions that made you think he was? Ha HA GOTCHA!" Heck, even in-universe it falls flat. Geiz and Tsukuyomi should be the last ones at all surprised about Sogo acknowledging he has a dark side, considering Oma Zi-O is the entire reason they're time traveling to begin with.

It rubs me the wrong way.

Yes, there are sides to people we can never truly know. But when we're talking about characters in a story, it's atleast nice to have something to point towards what you're getting at, rather than just pulling an idea out of left field for the sake of it. A line, an action, a dream sequence, a facial expression... something!

That's just my feelings on the matter anyway.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

And if the story is really meant to be about "assumptions" towards Sogo, not only has that already been done much better(see: almost the entire rest of the show), but it also feels like a backhand to the audience who was jiving with him: "Oh what, you thought Sogo was an all around decent person because he showed you words and actions that made you think he was? Ha HA GOTCHA!"

I think this right here is where we differ, because I think a lot of the point of this story is that the standard Geiz is holding himself to -- that Sougo would NEVER think of sacrificing someone, even for a second -- isn't real. Sougo doesn't need to be a permanent saint to be a good guy, or to be a Good Guy. He doesn't need to see his darker side as Not Him; that's what's causing problems over this story!

He's no less decent for acknowledging his shortcomings. If anything, he's more decent?

And as far as telegraphing Sougo's darker impulses more explicitly... I can't believe I didn't think to point this out earlier, but Oma Zi-O. Like, a ton of this episode is the Time Orphans saying Sougo Could Never Be Oma Zi-O, and then the show saying We Have Told You For Twenty-Two Episodes That Sougo Is Oma Zi-O Did You Think We Were Kidding. The calculating and manipulative parts of Sougo are definitely there, because he met the future version of himself that's all of those things.

Anyway, I get that this development is not going to work for everyone! I'm probably in the minority here! But I thought the show took a more nuanced and realistic approach towards sketching out Sougo's darker side than I'd've expected.

[Androzani84]

Amazingly, I managed to make it through this two-parter without mentioning Ryuki beyond the compare and contrast, which I’m continuing here.

Back in Episode Final, Dark Shinji hated his real self purely because he was alive, and wanted to hijack his life so he could be alive. Yet here, he’s fighting on behalf of his other self, misguidedly punishing those who “abandoned” ORE Journal.

And while this two parter may be the only TV appearance of Mirror Zi-O, he does show up again in the novel (where in one timeline, the Grey Woz I mentioned a while back arranges for him to take full control of Sougo so he can use him as a puppet king of what he terms “The Third History”. I’ll reveal more details in the future, since most of them are kind of spoilers)

Anyway, now onto my main feature.

Ridewatch Playlist: Bill Withers Song Mix

“Power up with the Ridewatch II. Aiming to be King, Kamen Rider Zi-O, II”

And the song I went with is one everyone has been talking about, Zi-O, Toki no Ouja (Monarch of Time). And as I promised a while ago, it has lyrics. (Beware of minor spoilers)

Join me tomorrow when we’ll be switching on, and next week, on my birthday, when I will actually be talking about Ryuki. (Provided my math is correct)

[TheRaizin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 22 - ?STRONGEST ZI-O! 2019?

Originally, when I saw ZI-O II back in the magazine scans, I wasn't a big fan! I thought it looked dumb! Two watches running across his body? Twice the watches on his head? Eugh! But then I saw the suit in action and I immediately fell in love. The way his silhouette becomes closer to Ohma ZI-O with the watch straps on his waist as wells as the presence of gold and making the shoulders larger, it finally clicked to me! The combination of Zikan Girade and the Saikyo Girade makes for a really cool looking greatsword. Too bad it's expensive to recreate in S.H. Figuarts form. Speaking of, I wanna buy the SHF of ZI-O II for a long time now, but the twin horns, small as they are, is scaring the hell outta me!

This, I feel, was also the start where I went from just liking ZI-O to loving it! This is what I was waiting for Sougo to do or say, and it being in the Ryuki arc makes this better by using his mirror counterpart to portray it. It was like waiting for this one important box to be checked in my list to solidify my stance on ZI-O

Also best scene in the episode. Period. The fact that he says "Mirai o keiki yaku!" at the end reawakened the Gundam 00 fan in me!

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 21 - ?MIRROR WORLD 2019?

And some of that?s the point! Sougo asks the Time Orphans what should be a fairly simple question: If they don?t want a future where Oma Zi-O obliterates humanity (but in a nice way), then what do they want the future to look like? They can?t just be fighting against the Misery Fields of 2068; they should have some positive goal they can articulate. Right?

But they don?t, and while that?s sweet and sad, it?s nothing this episode really explores. True to the themes of Ryuki, it?s all questions, but not much in the way of answers. What this whole Oma Day build-up is missing is more direct dialogue from Team Zi-O about what exactly the best outcome looks like for each of them. Both Wozez have been very clear about what they?re working towards. Even the Time Jackers, as dumb as their schemes are, have a clearly delineated goal. Team Zi-O?s weirdly aimless in this part of the show, preventing little tragedies but only making Serious Faces about the larger tragedies barrelling down on them. There's something poignant to that aimlessness - that the future is something you have to make happen, and if you don't, someone else will - but it still robs this episode of a sense of urgency.

I mean, other than the Time Orphans, all the time changers here are evil, as well as White Woz (of which the Japanese for "white" is "shiro"), both the straightforward and high level type too of that, no redeeming traits from them yet, albeit Heure is the least bad of them. The answer would be obvious that they're selfishly changing the future to create a new one they see fit, they aren't the well-intentioned type of making the future better or such, especially Swartz. So the ones that can be talked out with are only the Sougo and the Time Orphans (previously only Tsukuyomi can rein down Geiz, but now both of them can). But the main problem and dilemma was that White Woz's future sounds good on paper and thus it's the main one they're discussing with, better to have Geiz Revive or keeping Sougo around at the risk of Ohma Zi-O rising (as seen in ep. 16, when Sougo fights as Rider again, Ohma Zi-O returns to existence). Now I guess I understand better about your previous complaint about White Woz being handwaved, they here didn't come into the conclusion that White Woz may be untrustworthy one thus don't fuel his schemes. There's already more feud between Black Woz and the Time Orphans each before!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

(Real quick: I find the Time Jackers? fortnightly schemes to be hilarious. I don?t at all understand how some random rampaging monster is supposed to be the unquestioned King of Time, no matter how undefeatable the monster is. Last episode?s attempt with Quiz was comically inept, just some grunting monster shambling down hallways and settling dumb scores. The idea that any of these Monsters of the Week are destined for godhood is pretty pretty funny to me.)

King of Time? Is it necessary that the Time Jackers' scheme is creating a new King of Time? IIRC it's about creating another King, not King of Time, just a new King that fits into their vision of the world. Godhood isn't necessarily time-related. But the scheme also was about preventing Sougo from gaining all Rider's power btw, if they create Another Rider which erases the original Rider in the timeline, that'd make Sougo gaining all the Rider's power harder, because gaining all Rider power is what created the birth of Ohma Zi-O. And if for now Zi-O (or Geiz Revive) shows nowhere near of capabilities as Another Ryuga.... let alone Ohma Zi-O, why can't the Another Riders be worked up by the Time Jackers to reach Ohma Zi-O's level? Regarding Another Ryuga, it provides quite a new solution that it's an another Rider who is a dark self of the primary Rider before, but it'd still be related into the main Rider Ryuki/Shinji (Takamasa Suga's return! but with different hair), thus the solution is to kill the original self so the dark mirror version would also perish. Now it's Geiz's newfound sense of morality, following the other 2's footsteps that is the problem (but shouldn't change), he won't do underhanded tactics like that anymore to beat Another Riders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

While the steadily mounting nervousness over Oma Day didn?t really do it for me, I did really enjoy how this show reoriented itself towards Ryuki?s investigative/horror framework. It?s nothing too special ? a montage of Team Zi-O pounding the pavement and/or doing a Google search, plus one Legend Non-Rider appearance in Okubo from ORE Journal ? but it felt a little more detailed than the usual strategy of running around Tokyo until they met a monster or a Rider. Like, they went to the old ORE Journal HQ! They interviewed people connected to the victims! Minimal mystery ingredients, but it?s still there, and I appreciated it.

And at the end (I know now you've watched ep. 22), there's a tease of Sougo facing his darker, more sinister mirror self. The issue is solved in Ryuki-way like Shinji with Dark Shinji, but as the premise of Zi-O is about a sweet boy that can turn into genocidal warlord much later, this is the 2nd time Sougo comes into term of his destined future as Ohma Zi-O, previously he dealt with his older self, but now, he's dealing with his inner demons, shown in his dark mirror self who is both young and sinister (while Ohma Zi-O was old), so now the viewer is given akin of Ohma Zi-O's personality in the young Sougo himself. Sougo is genuinely noble and well-meaning and it's proven more in ep. 15-16 back then, but the mirror self controntation here would lurk deeper behind Sougo's self and explaining why there's a potential of him turning into Ohma Zi-O.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

Join me tomorrow when we?ll be switching on, and next week, on my birthday, when I will actually be talking about Ryuki. (Provided my math is correct)

Rider Time Ryuki should be next week, Sunday through Wednesday, after Zi-O Episode 28. And happy early birthday!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaizin

This, I feel, was also the start where I went from just liking ZI-O to loving it! This is what I was waiting for Sougo to do or say, and it being in the Ryuki arc makes this better by using his mirror counterpart to portray it. It was like waiting for this one important box to be checked in my list to solidify my stance on ZI-O

Yeah, it's a story that's trying to dispel the notion that Zi-O and Oma Zi-O are two different guys. All of the stuff that could eventually become Oma Zi-O, the seeds of that are inside Sougo right now. His challenge is to harness those parts of himself for good, instead of for evil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

King of Time? Is it necessary that the Time Jackers' scheme is creating a new King of Time? IIRC it's about creating another King, not King of Time, just a new King that fits into their vision of the world. Godhood isn't necessarily time-related. But the scheme also was about preventing Sougo from gaining all Rider's power btw, if they create Another Rider which erases the original Rider in the timeline, that'd make Sougo gaining all the Rider's power harder, because gaining all Rider power is what created the birth of Ohma Zi-O.

That's fair! I just think the visual of the Time Jackers propping up, like Another Quiz and going Here's The Undisputed Ruler Of Everything is pretty funny. Dude can't even really negotiate doorways that well. How's he supposed to be run a ruined world?

[Fish Sandwich]

(Fish Sandwich also watched Kamen Rider Zi-O - EP22)

This episode and this two-parter as a whole are real special for me. Like I mention in the old post, I literally went right back and watched them both together after finishing the second part for the first time, which I don't do often, if ever. It just made such a massive impression that way, and I think it absolutely cemented, after a steady uphill climb, that Zi-O as a whole was also going to turn out to be something special for me. This is easily one of my favorite form debuts ever, and it really brightened my day seeing Die give such well-stated praise to the themes it's exploring.

One of the other really cool things this episode does is bring back Toki no Ouja, and well... do you remember when I said in the Kabuto thread that I wasn't going to rewatch Kabuto right then and there? Because I talked myself into doing that translation of the lyrics after all. なんか行ける気がしちゃってさ。I mean, what better way could there be to show my appreciation for one of my absolute favorite Zi-O episodes, right?

The whole reason I hesitated was because there's just no way my efforts are going to get across how spectacularly precise and clever the word choice of the original lyrics is, but this song ended up shaping my perception of Sougo so much that I figured that was no reason not to try. It deserves a way better, prettier translation than I can give it (like something as nice as Over-Time's rendition of Over Quartzer, which I'm incidentally quite fond of), but hopefully I gave it one that conveys at least some of that original brilliance. This is a song that made me love this show even more than I already did, and I'd be happy if I could help it do the same for someone else.

時の中を　駆けるように
Within time itself, I race onwards
真実だけを　探して
Seeking out truth, and truth alone
止めさせない　誰の時も
I won't let anyone's time be stopped
掛け替えのない物語　繋げる　あるべきよう
Those stories are precious, and I'll see them connected, as they should be

目を閉じれば　内なる声が響く
Close your eyes, and the voice within will lead the way
偽りなき未来　往く
Heading towards a future free of falsehood

ジオウ　時の王者
Zi-O, the ruler of time
この世界の　運命導き
Guiding the very fate of this world
Cuz I still dream on　真の王者
Because I still dream on, of a true ruler
時を越えるSAGA
In this saga that goes beyond time!

人は出会い　変って行く
People cross paths, and those meetings change us
それを進化と　呼ぶなら
And if that is what it means to grow
対峙してる　力さえも
Surely someday, even the forces that stand in my way
いつかきっと願った夢を　支える　希望になる
Will become the hope that supports me, as I reach toward my dream

信じるため　僕らは生まれてきた
Never lose faith, for we were born to keep believing
いつだって"自分"であれ
Stay true to yourself, no matter what

ジオウ　時の王者
Zi-O, the ruler of time
戦うのさ　時空飛び越えて
Fighting on, across all time and space
Cuz I still dream on　真の王者
Because I still dream on, of a true ruler
受け継ぐのはLegend
The one who inherits this legend!

伝説を知るたび毎に
With every legend I encounter
未知なる価値を　飲み込むように
It's as though I start to grasp potential I've never known
手に入れる
I take into my hands
自分らしく新しい　強さを
A brand new strength, that can only be my own

ジオウ　時の王者
Zi-O, the ruler of time
この世界の　運命導き
Guiding the very fate of this world
Cuz I still dream on　真の王者
Because I still dream on, of a true ruler
時を越えるSAGA
In this saga that goes beyond time!

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 22 - ?STRONGEST ZI-O! 2019?

So we get this wonderful story about how the Time Orphans have grown as people thanks to Sougo, but still manage to get blindsided when he?s more complicated than they thought. They?ve seen his outward actions ? his generosity, his enthusiasm ? and put him up on a pedestal. Sougo?s always good. Sougo always does the right thing. Sougo?d never consider harming someone for the greater good. Geiz and Tsukuyomi can put all of their faith in Sougo, because he?s the best of them.

Which is exactly the sort of thinking that gets us, y?know, genocidal despots. When we stop seeing people as people, and start seeing them as paragons of justice, we lose perspective. We stop asking questions of their motivations, of their goals, of their limits. We stop acting as barriers to their darker impulses. The Time Orphans saw one side of Sougo, and didn?t think he could be hiding anything.

But we all hide things. Sougo?s confusion at Geiz being down on himself for contemplating killing Shinji is reasonable, you know? Defeating Ryuga seems impossible, and here?s a possible solution. Both Sougo and Geiz immediately discard it, because it?s evil, but they?re not evil for considering it. Sougo?s a three-dimensional character in this story, even if he isn?t always portrayed that way in others. He always does the right thing, but that means discarding the wrong thing first. He won?t let Geiz sacrifice himself, but he knows what stopping Geiz means as far as defeating Ryuga goes. He can be good, because he?s overcoming his own capacity for evil.

That?s a universal thing, even if it isn?t much of a Ryuki theme. (Maybe the movie? There aren't a lot of Mirror Selves in the TV show, unfortunately.) Our reflections aren?t some alternate version of ourselves; they?re just us. We?re complicated, and it?s okay to be complicated. You?re allowed to think bad thoughts, or doubt yourself, or feel like you can?t be the version of yourself that you imagine. But the point of all that is to confront it, and then choose the better outcome. Give up on grudges like Shinji does, because they?re poisonous. Be okay with how messy you are, like Sougo, because there?s value in the messiness. Take everything that?s in you, and let it help you be better tomorrow than you were today.

Great points! I'd like to add that while it's important not to ignore the capacity for evil in others by only focusing on all their good actions, that advice should be applied to the self as well. I like Sougo's interaction with Dark Sougo, as it gives another example of hostile interaction between two Sougos, like Sougo's previous interaction with Oma Zi-O. Dark Sougo is obviously a bad person and an a**hole, but he possesses a sense of self that Sougo was lacking. He does the opposite of what Tsukuyomi did, by telling Sougo how much he sucks and how he's totally going to become evil in the future. It's not what Sougo wants to hear, but it's what he needs to hear. Being told reassuring things and praise too often can make a person complacent, so I think it's important to hear constructive criticism instead of pretending those unpleasant things aren't real.

Sougo made some good progress towards becoming the greatest kindest demon king in the Shinobi arc, by deciding to have faith in his future self. But even the greatest kindest demon king is ultimately still a demon king, in which evil is an inherent trait. Having too much faith was always Sougo's weakness. To combat evil, he needed to understand evil and that it was something he was capable of. It's not even specific to Sougo, or even Geiz. That's just human nature. We're all plagued by things like sadism and selfishness, no matter how much we don't like to admit it. But we have the potential to act against those parts of ourselves, as long as we acknowledge that those things exist.

Something else I'd like to point out about Dark Sougo's Zi-O, since nobody else brought it up, is that the time on his face is different. Our Sougo's Zi-O has the time of 10:10, but due to Dark Sougo's Zi-O being mirrored, his time is 2:50 instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicrescend0

-Tsukuyomi being the one to go "Oh shit, maybe letting Sougo do that was a bad idea, we might have to actually kill him?" I remember being slightly miffed at this during my inital watch. (Tsuku's been willing to hear Sougo out since Episode 1! And we've already been toying with people lives, remember we brought Another Ghost's host back to life?! etc etc etc......) But like. I *kinda* get it now? Not 100% "oh yeah that makes sense", but I get it. Seeing Zi-O II breaking the established rules through sheer power is kinda terrifying, after all, it would def scare me into considering nipping the bud early before it blooms.

This is the arc where Tsukuyomi shows her true colors. Her willingness to give Sougo the benefit of the doubt until now wasn't out of selflessness. She wanted to believe in him, as steering him away from the path of the evil Oma Zi-O was the best case scenario compared to Geiz jumping to the conclusion of killing him before he becomes a threat. But wanting to believe in someone isn't the same as actually believing in them. It's denial.

When Sougo asks Tsukuyomi if she thinks he can become a good king, she tells him exactly what he wants to hear, hoping that it'll encourage him. But everything she told him was a lie. She's scared of what he could become and all it takes is a display of Zi-O II's power to remind her of that and completely shatter any pretense of trust. Geiz sees the potential in Sougo, both good and bad. He also has that fear, he's also seen what Sougo could become, but he's always challenged Sougo's morality. That's why he actually trusts Sougo, cause he made him work to earn that trust. That's something Tsukuyomi never understood. You have to doubt someone first, before you can sincerely believe in them.

[Daikaijuman54]

Am I the only one who thinks Zi-O II is too OP at this stage in the show?

But anyway, good episode, maybe not great, but I liked it.

Really loved the Ryuki Armor Time, but Zi-O II is pretty good too. From being two Zi-Os meshed together, where their watch band forms a "II," and the majestic jingle, it's a neat design. But his powers feel really broken... He can rewind time, predict an enemy's moves (he wouldn't be the last, unfortunately), and as par for the course when it comes to powerups, completely trounces the monster-of-the-week.

Shinji had a nice scene with his former boss, but maybe because it's been so long, since seeing this then Ryuki, I don't have anything to say about how well or not they pulled the theme here. But as I said, I liked this episode, even if the power creep took a little too much leap here.