[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Pretty much! A lot of Sougo's arc so far is him not only gaining the power of Oma Zi-O, but also becoming more cognizant of how serious the temptation of power is. Like I was talking about above, this story is Sougo having to accept that he has the capacity for evil in a broader sense than just Gotta Be On Best Behavior On Oma Day. People can make bad decisions constantly, for any reason, and it's important to understand that. Sougo's power as Zi-O II draws from both Zi-O and Oma Zi-O - two Zi-O's, you might say - and that's a tricky line to walk.

Huh? You think Ohma Zi-O is something smaller? Zi-O II is only his super form, not the end of his power. This talk here seems to paint Zi-O II as something superior to even Ohma Zi-O to describe it as combination of it and Zi-O. Otherwise, how about my other arguments for "capacity for evil" that it can be used for unfair judgment for characters or misused?

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 23 - ?IT?S KIKAI! 2121?

I liked the stuff with Kikai, the same as probably everyone else. They went for a terrifically goofy late-Showa vibe to everything (Rento?s all-denim outfit! With bell bottoms!) and it was the right move. Rento himself is a stalwart defender of humanity and a friend to children, with a charming lack of guile. And as much fun as it was to see Rento walk stiffly and smile slightly unnervingly, it was equally entertaining to watch Kamen Rider Kikai full-on punch an old lady in the face. I mean, it was a killer robot old lady, but it still looked pretty funny. Really good time hanging out in 2121.

Rento's world is something that ain't pretty, even without Ohma Zi-O's rule. While it was previously only an implication for a world where Geiz Revive wins, in Kikai's world, while outwardly it looks peaceful, humanity is secluded to a small space and the reality it consisted of Humanoise attack. They ask if their target is a machine or a human, but they'd already know to attack and kill. The world is instead taken over by Humanoise, but the positive side of that world is that, Kikai can stand up against the rule, unlike the invincible Ohma Zi-O. For him punching an old lady, well, the hammer of justice is unisex so it's good to have it being done .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The specific struggle between Geiz?z belief in Sougo and Tsukuyomi?s pragmatism/impatience feels less an outgrowth of recent events than some writerly shift towards Internal Conflict, and I?d need a lot more from Tsukuyomi than I?ve gotten to buy into it. For someone who traveled back in time specifically to avert a time execution, she?s uncharacteristically all-in on killing Sougo immediately. There?s for sure a story to tell about Tsukuyomi reconsidering her beliefs, but we haven?t been given the incremental beats of the story that Geiz got for his arc. I?m okay with this story as some bump in the road for the team dynamic, but it?s not exactly hitting the Geiz/Sougo heights of Episode 16.

The answer would be something outside of the series, with Shirakura's explanations making little sense creating plot inconsistencies. Different writers can really create something like this ._. Though like I said before, Zi-O II is a such game changer to turn 2 characters into OOc-phase in Tsukuyomi and White Woz who cracks and loses his composure. It could be about how Zi-O II shows more resemblance to Ohma Zi-O, which'd mean Sougo now has a real chance to become Ohma Zi-O, as the basis of the belief before was, as you said putting him on pedestal that it's not believable Sougo would become Ohma Zi-O due to his kindness and is always doing the right thing, but now Zi-O II veers closer into Ohma Zi-O.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The comedy parts, though! Those were great! Coming back to Sougo?s established Terrible Math Skills as the bridge to get him dozing off and seeing the future was great, but Geiz?z Helicopter Time Dad stuff was even better. He?s so mad when he thinks Sougo is cheating on a test! He?s so mad when Sougo isn?t studying hard enough! It?s adorable!

Other than the comedy parts, it's also something bigger than that to further show how horrific Sougo is now, while the Humanoise attacks were Sougo's dream, it's a potentially prophetic one, in Kamen Rider Kikai reprogrammed as a Humanoise in the body of a Kamen Rider. His dream being prophetic is actually a smart one for Geiz to then try getting him to sleep instead to gain more information. There's also something regarding how Another Kikai is different, it's a parasite and none of the Time Jackers created it. Sougo also later used the vision to help his enemy Heure to run, but that also shows further of Swartz's cruelty, he'd use him to test Another Kikai's power.

[Kurona]

I'm not regularly on this forum anymore aside from SHF news and such but I had to pop in to say the Zi-O II arc praise made me happy. That's an arc that always resonated with me a lot and I might even say is just my favourite part of Zi-O; and I kind of thought it was only a me thing? Like, I didn't think many people disliked it, but it felt like I was the only one that considered it really good. So it's cool to see so many people giving it pretty much the exact same positives I always thought of it as having

It helps as well mind that it's surrounded by the really fun Future Riders arc concept, especially when it's immediately followed up with Kikai, my personal favourite for his setting. I remember at the time someone said here that Shinobi is the coolest and Quiz has the character drama going for him, but Kikai's setting is so fleshed out that it's the one they could easily see becoming a series the most. And honestly I'm still out here waiting for Kamen Rider Terminator! Maybe I should just watch the Hakaider movie already...

[Fish Sandwich]

(Fish Sandwich also watched Kamen Rider Zi-O - EP23)

So, first of all, after a few years, it's just now occurring to me what the real commonality between the Miriders is, and I'd just like to take a second to walk everyone through this all at once:

- Shinichirou Shirakura and Naomi Takebe were producers on Kamen Rider Zi-O, which was written by Kento Shimoyama and Nobuhiro Mouri
- Shinobi is played by Hideya Tawada, who had a starring role in Shuriken Sentai Ninninger, which was produced by Takebe and written by Shimoyama and Mouri
- Quiz is played by Katsuhiro Suzuki, who had a starring role in Tokumei Sentai Go-Busters, which was produced by Takebe and written in part by Shimoyama and Mouri
- Kikai is played by Jingi Irie, who had a starring role in Kikaider Reboot, a movie produced by Shirakura and written by Shimoyama, and which had a promotional crossover with Kamen Rider Gaim, produced by Takebe, in an episode written by Mouri.

*Whew*! It's all one big conspiracy theory, I tell ya'. Toei only has five actors, and even fewer writers and producers!

Anyway, getting to the episode at hand, my post from the time is a real microcosm of some general feelings I had toward the show at the time, a lot of which seems rather quaint to my present self, in retrospect.

- I mention how I was actively critical of Zi-O despite enjoying it a ton, and really, that was always all according to plan. In my experience, Rider shows I start thinking of as perfect right out of the gate end up leaving me feeling a little burned by the end (I have very complicated feelings about Gaim!), and that had just happened a tiny bit with Build as Zi-O was starting, so I think I made it a point to try and... well, actually, now that I think about it, it sort of overlaps with what EP22 was about thematically? Rather than put Zi-O up on some pedestal to be shattered later, I figured I'd enjoy it more if I was actively embracing the complexity of its quality from the start, rather than ignoring any potential faults. Not that I was thinking about it that consciously, I'm sure. That decision was probably inspired, more than anything, by how much nitpicking I constantly did with Ex-Aid, embittered Ghost fan that I was, which was itself a conscious decision to prevent that show from becoming another Gaim for me. Ex-Aid fought hard and won my unfailing respect by the end, becoming one of those series I only ever seem to like more the more time passes. I gave Zi-O the same treatment, and here I am a few years down the line, translating insert songs and reminiscing at length about the halcyon days of the show being on the air, so, once again -- all according to plan.

- Die went with calling Tsukuyomi "Time Mom"; I went with calling her a plank of wood, which I still feel a little bad about. I also don't think I was out of line with that remark. Tsukuyomi is a character I always felt the show struggled with making particularly interesting, and it got the point where I named an entire concept after her -- The Tsukuyomi Zone. It's basically the pet name I gave to this weird pattern of thinking I've noticed in myself, where if I feel the right sort of sustained apathy about a character or whatever else, it eventually becomes pity, and that pity in turn becomes genuine affection. Prime examples of other toku characters located firmly in The Tsukuyomi Zone for me include Mihara from Faiz, as well as Yui from Ryuki, who probably would've been the namesake of this phenomenon if I had realized it was a thing prior to 2019. I'm uh, I'm not sure what all this says about me as a person or not, but at any rate, I kinda like Tsukuyomi now! Some of it is for reasons Die has yet to get to, but just, in general, I don't know, I really softened up on her over time. All of this is sort of irrelevant to how I feel about her role in this particular plot though, which is going to lean on the negative side either way. I was honestly 100% on board with the concept of what's going on here, but like I mentioned at the time, and just like Die noticed too, the crucial problem for me is that Tsukuyomi's feelings about Sougo basically immediately stop being about her. It's a rather glaring disservice to a character who so faithfully serves so many others despite never being rewarded for her tireless efforts... kind of like a mother...

- I talk about how excited I was about the prospect of only seeing Zi-O II a bunch at the expense of the base form, and that speaks volumes about just how much I loved that previous episode. It's borderline out of character for me to ever being saying something like that, and now that the show is over, one of the things I really love about Zi-O ended up being how much it keeps the older suits in action. This was right after Build, as well, where Sento went between episode 30 all the way to the finale without using RabbitTank a single time, so again, I appreciated the change of pace. And Zi-O II didn't even end up being my favorite Zi-O form in the long run! But that Ryuki two-parter was just *that* good, that in the moment, I basically couldn't think of anything else.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Like most things, practicality is only good in moderation. Tsukuyomi's ability to express empathy is part of social aptitude, a means of keeping the peace. In her case, it's a necessary skill for steering Sougo in the right direction, in much the same way Sougo uses his innocent image to manipulate people. But her whole presence here was to prevent a bad future. She didn't befriend Sougo for the sake of being his friend.

When Tsukuyomi was telling Sougo she wasn't scared of his power, I think she was trying more to convince herself. I mean, you said yourself that she is scared. The whole moral of that Ryuki arc was accepting that everybody's capable of doing bad things. She can't plausibly claim that Sougo could never hurt a fly when she's already seen how future Sougo killed half the planet. The difference between the Time Orphans is that Tsukuyomi is concerned with what Sougo can do, while Geiz is concerned with what he will do.

I think we've just got two different reads on Tsukuyomi's thought process, which is totally fair. I see Tsukuyomi as someone who impetuously traveled to the past to try and be a positive influence on a future dictator, but was won over by his charming enthusiasm and guileless decency. She was someone who was scared that Sougo would gain power and use it maliciously, not just scared of him having power at all. The idea of her having any sort of distance from Sougo, and steering him more directly... yeah, not my take.

But I appreciate you sharing your view! Neat to get another person's take.

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

This talk here seems to paint Zi-O II as something superior to even Ohma Zi-O to describe it as combination of it and Zi-O.

I don't see that in the piece you quoted? I've seen enough Figuarts to know that Sougo's got a few more upgrades coming. Sorry if there was some confusion!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Sougo also later used the vision to help his enemy Heure to run, but that also shows further of Swartz's cruelty, he'd use him to test Another Kikai's power.

Yeah, it's part of this episode's theme of Trusting Someone Dangerous, where even the Time Jackers can't trust each other. Solid thematic work!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurona

I'm not regularly on this forum anymore aside from SHF news and such but I had to pop in to say the Zi-O II arc praise made me happy.

Welcome back! And, yeah, those Ryuki episodes were really terrific. I like when shows can treat emotional and psychological issues as something constant within us that we need to reckon with, rather than the cheap plot of Sougo's A Jerk This Week or whatever. Definitely makes for a more resonant, memorable story.

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Toei only has five actors, and even fewer writers and producers!

Even more than All Dads Are Dead, the real legacy of Heisei Rider is Everyone's In Everything.

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I mention how I was actively critical of Zi-O despite enjoying it a ton, and really, that was always all according to plan.

This might sound weird, considering I've written hundreds of pages of Kamen Rider criticism over the last few years, but I'm not that critical of these shows? Certainly not consciously. I just like watching these shows, and then my brain can't stop cracking episodes open, and then I've written a bunch. But the shows themselves? I like 'em all. I can't go in with a Don't Break My Heart attitude, because, honestly? They never could. I like watching Kamen Rider, the end.

(That said! There will always be moments that frustrate and disappoint me! I am okay with that, though! I embrace the darkness and the light, as I carve a path to Revice!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

It's basically the pet name I gave to this weird pattern of thinking I've noticed in myself, where if I feel the right sort of sustained apathy about a character or whatever else, it eventually becomes pity, and that pity in turn becomes genuine affection.

This is one of the most Fish Sandwich things I've ever read, so thank you for that. Not even a little surprised that you have a habit of eventually loving boring characters that a show never figured out how to use properly. That completely tracks. I'm so grateful for this insight into your psychology that I'm not even going to make a Jean joke!

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I'm not even going to make a Jean joke!

As well as you shouldn't! If anything, I could call The Jean Zone the place where a character ends up when they don't even have to do all that much to clearly be one of the most awesome people in their show anyway. Jean's mere presence elevates every scene of Kuuga he's in from start to finish, and that's the crucial distinction between him and someone in The Tsukuyomi Zone. I have never been apathetic towards Jean! Never!

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 24 - “BEST FRIEND 2121”



So, first off:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I sort of like the implication (or, at least, possibility) that Sougo is creating these alternate future timelines with his premonitions. I'm sure that's not where the show is going with it (feels like more of a Kiramager move?), but it works for me.

ha ha ha WHOOPS

Turns out, that’s exactly where the show is going with it, so that’s sort of neat. I don’t feel like going back to the previous Future Rider episodes to see if I can make a case for everything as a reflection of Sougo’s subconscious (feels like it’d be 50% Obviously and 50% Bit Of A Stretch), but I do appreciate the show opening up such a gigantic can of worms. Because, you know, the Future Riders aren’t the only characters who’ve shown up from the future to interact with Sougo.

There’s also the Time Orphans.

Now, I really don’t think the show is saying that Sougo’s created Geiz and Tsukuyomi. Metaphorically, I’m not sure it’d help this show to make two of Sougo’s most trusted friends (and, uh, Woz, I guess) into figments of his imagination. Maybe, but it’s difficult. But right now, I kinda like Geiz and Tsukuyomi being slightly unmoored by Sougo’s reality-altering powerset, and how even positive desires – like friendship – can have negative consequences when it’s the desire of a god.

Because this is an episode about Sougo’s feelings, pretty much from front to back. There’s not a ton of movement on the schism between Sougo and Tsukuyomi, which is both a bummer and a blessing. It’s a bummer, because this plotline so badly needs Tsukuyomi to make a better case for killing Sougo than just saying We Need To Kill Sougo. But it’s a blessing, because in the rare moments where Tsukuyomi gets to talk about her strategy and its necessity, she sounds like she’s Another Tsukuyomi or something: just bizarrely hypocritical, and disappointingly bloodthirsty.

There’s a bit in this episode where Tsukuyomi and Geiz are bickering over Tsukuyomi’s irritating insistence on asking When Are We Going To Get To The Murdering Sougo Factory at all times, and Geiz asks her if she’s seriously willing to trust Hat Woz. She responds that there’s no time to be choosy about where they get help. It’s… I got SO MAD at that response. Her insane point is that it’s okay to trust in Hat Woz’z mysterious motivations, because it’s expedient, but trusting in Sougo – who, to date, has only used his Terrifying New Power to, uh, save Geiz’z life – is ludicrous. It’s a terrible argument in favor of executing a friend, and that was the point where I gave up on Tsukuyomi’s current plotline making any sense to me. Just gonna assume she’s the Mirror Tsukuyomi, who destroys friendships and hates empathy. It’s easier for me that way.

And since I don’t really care about Tsukuyomi right now, it gives me more of a chance to enjoy how this story is just soaking in how lonely and sad Sougo’s character always was, and how badly he needs his friends back. The separation itself is far more interesting than the reasons behind it. That sad little speech from Uncle about how this weird kid never had anyone to be friends with, and then two teenagers from the future -slash- his dreams arrived to live with him and go on Time Missions (holy shit, remember when this show had time travel?!) but also having meals with him and caring about his grades and believing in him and…

It’s just a nicely melancholy scene, even if it never really sways Tsukuyomi from her Anti-Sougo Brain Worms or whatever is going on with her. I wish this story were about Tsukuyomi’s relatable fear that she might’ve misread someone and now she regrets it, or about how difficult it can be to protect yourself from being hurt when relationships evolve unexpectedly, but I will settle for a story where Sougo misses the only two friends he’s ever had.

Even if he maybe dreamed them up.

[TheRaizin]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Tsukuyomi?s current plotline making any sense to me.

Aaaaaahhh Tsukasa save me! We're in one of two points in Tsukuyomi's role where she's just so weirdly written. But, in my opinion, it's only two! And we're almost there at ending it!

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

a story where Sougo misses the only two friends he?s ever had.

Even if he maybe dreamed them up.

I like this concept that Sougo's kingly dreams drove everything 'normal' to him away. A normal life, a normal dream, a normal childhood, normal friends, everything. The fact that he had a childhood robot toy as his only friend and later became an alternate future with his powers is kinda sad. You dreamt up your toy to become your friend?

All these make it so that giving Sougo powers was really the activation to the ticking time bomb that is his rise to power as Ohma ZI-O.

[FreshToku]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I?m not sure it?d help this show to make two of Sougo?s most trusted friends (and, uh, Woz, I guess)

How rude, when Woz has been so supportive of Sougo's dreams from the beginning!

I do remember being somewhat sad at Tsukiyomi's decisions in this episode, but I'm also sad to say only 'somewhat' because I really couldn't muster up much care for her to begin with. She's just barely above the level of the Time Jackers for me, and around this point of the show I'm pretty sure she hit the same level as them in terms of how much I don't care. Like, one of them gets turned into the Another Rider this episode and that sounds like it should maybe be a big deal but it's so absolutely not.

Oh yeah Futuring Kikai is cool. Kamen Rider Woz just roboticising some unwitting civilians is another really great moment I like. Maybe it's hypocritical of me to be so charmed every time this guy does something awful and selfish for the sake of 'saving the day', but then I'm hard on Tsukiyomi for wanting Sougo dead ^_^;;;

[DreamSword]

I absolutely love Rento Makina/Kikai.

Sure, there's the face value stuff in that he embodies alot of tropes I love: Especially robot characters. Heck, his name can easily be read as "Rented Machine."

And yeah, the very premise of his show, dreamed up in the imagination of Sogo or otherwise, is totally something that I would watch, but really, the main thing that grabbed me was just how well he tied into everything.

To me, the biggest takeaway of this arc was about how no friendship is perfect. No matter how close or how well you jive with someone, there's going to be a disagreement, a conflict, or something that's going to cause some sort of rift in the relationship, and the true test of your friendship comes in how you handle it.

Kikai embodies that in his timeline with how his psychotic trigger causes him to lash out at those he cares about, which also provides a great way at mirroring Sogo's' own fear in how he might one day become Oma Zi-O and drive away those he loves: A way better way at exhibiting many of the ideas discussed in the Ryuki two-parter, in my opinion.

But in the end, those touched by Rento's' kindness still have faith in him and his better half, allowing the gap to be bridged, showing that Sogo has that same sort of faith in not only himself, but in Geiz and Tsukuyomi as well. It's really touching and is especially powerful to me specifically as someone who's currently in friendships with people that have mental health issues, or heck, just plain had fights with people over whatever reason.

Also, the implication that Rento is literally Sogo's' toy robot is just plain adorable.

I dunno 100% if Rento will end up being my favorite character in Zi-O, but man does he have a really strong case for it right now. Would be very surprised if anyone ended up surpassing him at this point.

Such a shame he didn't get a mini-series like Shinobi did, though an anime or a movie could've been cool. Maybe some douchebag on the internet, heck, this very website, could even review them! But alas.

Wonderful pair of episodes. My favorite in the show so far.

[Enchilada645]

So remember how I said I don't really see Oma Zi-O as a pure evil "bwahaha" villain as like, I feel a lot of people do? This plotline right here, where we sort of just delve into Sougo himself and the pure loneliness that comes with his dream. Like we've seen him have acquaintances and classmates at school, but that's all they are. They aren't any real friends, there's even a point in the beginning episode's where he sort of longingly looks at a bunch of teen's who are talking about what they're going to do when they hang out.

It's sad. It's absolutely tragic is what it is, and that tragedy is likely what sort of pushed Sougo onto that path of Oma Zi-O as a person when it comes to his actions in basically making Earth a wasteland by the time of 2068. And that's what makes Oma Zi-O all the more interesting for me. You see sort of like, the clues and the small nudges in Sougo's life that leads him towards the person he eventually becomes. But the thing is... we're very far removed from the initial path because of Geiz and Tsukuyomi, even if things are rough right now. They've had influence and impact on Sougo and it'll be interesting to see where it leads.

Wow... I had a lot to say on this huh? More so than usual haha...

Anyway, next time we get to my favorite Arc in the show... with probably the worst BGM Swap I've heard thus far. So given the contents for next time, we've got Toki no Ouja which is my preferred choice for this particular BGM Swap... and a deep pitched version of Over Quartzer that just feels so wrong... I would've taken a reversed Over Quartzer like was suggested back during the Ryuga Two-Parter!

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