[Fish Sandwich]

(Fish Sandwich also watched Kamen Rider Zi-O - EP28)

My past self is going to contradict me on this later -- and not without good reason -- but looking back, this is probably my overall favorite single episode of Zi-O? I mean, it's so so hard to choose, with how many amazing concluding chapters this show has to different arcs that are entertaining for such varied reasons, but when it comes to episodes of Zi-O that have just stuck with me constantly ever since I first watched them, this one might just be at the top of the list. At the very least, this four-part arc was literally number one on the list I gave Die back when this was going to be Tokunation watches Zi-O. And given what Die has said about the choices people made, that probably wasn't a contrarian pick for once!

And good thing, too, because I don't know how much I could hold myself back if people started talking too much smack about an episode this obviously amazing! Even the alleged Time Nonsense and Another Zi-O himself are big winners in my book. The idea that Swartz basically maliciously set Sougo on the path towards becoming Oma Zi-O fits beautifully with the overall themes of the series. And it's also why I'm genuinely quite fond of Hiryuu Kakogawa as a character, as well. He's extraordinarily petty by design, because he lacks a strength that our two heroes have. He wants to take down Zi-O, just like Geiz does, but unlike Geiz, his motivation lacks anything deeper behind that. He's got a tragic past that shaped his life in a major way, but unlike Sougo, he makes no effort to prevent himself from letting those events consume him. You can call Hiryuu lame and shallow all you want, and I'll agree, and tell you that's exactly why I like him. He's doing darn good work throughout these episodes as a foil for the true Riders here. Despite the emotional impact for these ones landing where they did, my excitement for these episodes began with the idea of how fun Another Zi-O sounds as a concept, and I did not at all find myself disappointed.

But yeah, at the end of the day, we are here for Geiz and Sougo, aren't we? Still not much I really feel like I need to even explain to anyone who's seen the show, so I'll just talk about Sougo in particular a bit, instead. I feel like from this point onwards is where he's truly become a fully fleshed out protagonist. We saw him find the courage to not let his future define him earlier in the show, and now, with the backstory we're given here, we also see his determination not to be weighed down by his past, and those two things together, I think they get you the real core of Zi-O's goal as a hero. Den-O was the Kamen Rider who fought to protect time, but Zi-O fights to create it. To live in a present he's decided for himself, and to make sure everyone else gets the chance to do the same.

I don't know, I guess I should cut myself off soon, because I could ramble about this one for ages, so I'll just mention that, as you can probably tell from that last paragraph, Sougo's speech to Hiryuu is a scene that's always really stuck with me in particular. Sou Okuno absolutely nailed the delivery on those lines, I fundamentally love seeing the hero just making such an earnest plea for an antagonist not to waste their life, and as FreshToku has mentioned already, it's the scene that debuts what might be my favorite track of the show, combining with the new battle theme from the (amazingly fun!) Another Rider All-Stars showdown to make Toki no Ouja into a backbone of the show's soundtrack for the rest of the run.

Gaaaaah, this episode really is just too good! The whole reason this track stuck out so much to begin with, too, is in huge part thanks to how sparingly a lot of the dramatic scenes here use any music at all, relying on the performances of the actors and the stellar visuals from Tasaki to carry the emotions instead. And they can do that *handily*. This was such a wonderful climactic turning point for Zi-O! I'm going to stop talking about it for real this time though! Honest! (Until I inevitably want to talk about it more later, at least!)

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

Obviously it's all because of Sougo and Geiz, and everything from the ten minute or so mark onwards is just about perfect. Them both arrivin at that conveniently empty carpark to keep their horribly sacrificial promises with one another, and Sougo admitting he's fine with all this because this way he gets to see Geiz... Aaghgh! (< good anguish).

Of course the top of an open-air car park is empty: it's winter! Who in their right mind would park where their car could get snowed on?! That's why Geiz picked that spot to duel, because he knew it'd be wide-open. He's become quite the tactician!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

I guess the only thing I would change is just have Geiz himself explicitly drop all notion of having a 'final battle' at this point, which would have made Tsukiyomi dropping in begging them not to fight even more funny, and even more sweet as they laugh at her (okay that's rude, I know they're not literally laughing at her, but still!)

It's definitely the one Sougo/Geiz thing in the episode that was puzzling to me? There's no reason for them to fight at this point in the episode; Geiz has already said that he doesn't believe Sougo's a threat. I sort of wrote it off as Geiz still wanting to see if he could take Sougo in a fight (sparring, more than fighting), but if anyone has a better read on this part of the episode, please let me know!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaizin

I liked this episode just for that confrontation between Sougo and Geiz. But I don't like that Hiryu got in the middle of it, at least the previous forms got used just to end the 2nd arc.

I mean, Sougo and Geiz needed someone to gang up on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylarking

Hiryu sucks

He... does not have a lot of fans, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

?Thank you for watching Kamen Rider Zi-O. It?s okay not to watch next week.? - Inoue?s Twitter after this episode.

ALL INOUES FOREVER!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daikaijuman54

Not a bad arc, but probably not one that even qualifies as "okay," lots of buildup, with somewhat unsatisfying results, but I guess it's good that these past four episodes weren't Rider tributes.

Yeah, I liked that they made space to tell a Geiz/Sougo story, without trying to wedge in, like, a Kabuto homage or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

You can call Hiryuu lame and shallow all you want, and I'll agree, and tell you that's exactly why I like him.

Bless you. Never change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I don't know, I guess I should cut myself off soon, because I could ramble about this one for ages, so I'll just mention that, as you can probably tell from that last paragraph, Sougo's speech to Hiryuu is a scene that's always really stuck with me in particular. Sou Okuno absolutely nailed the delivery on those lines, I fundamentally love seeing the hero just making such an earnest plea for an antagonist not to waste their life, and as FreshToku has mentioned already, it's the scene that debuts what might be my favorite track of the show, combining with the new battle theme from the (amazingly fun!) Another Rider All-Stars showdown to make Toki no Ouja into a backbone of the show's soundtrack for the rest of the run.)

It's a really good speech from Sougo. It gets at a lot of what this series has been smart about, how there are all these things happening to and around us, things we can't control, but our power lies in how we deal with those things. Sougo feels bad about how a bus accident that was centered on him ended up hurting other people, but he obviously didn't ask for it to happen, and he can only try to deal with the aftermath. It's the difference between regret and responsibility, which is sort of the main thing this story arc was about?

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 28 - ?OUR GOAL 2019?

A lot of that is just? it?s two really fun actors? Geiz?z almost performative frostiness, obscuring a lonely boy?s need for friendship. Sougo?s loudly-stated need for friendship, clearly communicated and now thoroughly unstoppable. It?s massively vulnerable, and both actors nail the strange mix of emotions that need to stabilize into something warm and sustainable.

And this is the part where Sougo and Geiz officially become friends! When Geiz is confronted with that statement, he immediately overcompensates by repeating his pre-development lines, like how Zi-O is his sworn enemy who must be destroyed, etc. But Sougo's anger and honesty finally gets through to him, by taking Uncle Tokiwa's advice. Geiz realizes that he and Sougo can still be friends, even if they're forced to fight each other. And yeah, I've had very little to say about Hiryu as Another Zi-O, but he's a great obstacle to symbolize them finally working together as friends against a shallow person who rejects both of their principles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The other drawback is more slight, but I found the resolution to Tsukuyomi?s crisis of faith to be hilariously obtuse, with her basically saying that they should believe in Sougo because the Time Jackers might be up to something. This is? this is not new information! The Time Jackers have been up to something since literally the first episode!

Yeah, the contrived resolution to Tsukuyomi's arc was a real blunder. I was willing to see where it would go, but she basically ends up in the same place where she started. What was the point?! It doesn't even address the problem with her fragile faith in Sougo, since the revelation only concerns Sougo's backstory, nothing that actually suggests anything about his morality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

My favorite nonsensical part to Swartz'z reveal is that THIS ONE TIME he changed his outfit when he tried to meddle with history, because the show had already established that Sougo's dream had a guy in a hat telling him he'd become king. Every other time we see Swartz, purple sleeveless coat. This one time, when he's going to kill all the witnesses anyway, he goes in a disguise. What?

No, this actually makes sense. The Swartz on the bus was his past self, so he doesn't have his purple coat yet at that point. Same reason why he didn't recognize Tsukuyomi. It also means Tsukuyomi and Swartz are part of a causal loop that directly influenced Sougo's and Hiryu's childhood. Surprisingly, there's still one more thing about this bus incident that you haven't seen yet, so I'll leave it here for now.

Anyway, I haven't been rewatching along with this thread like I did for Faiz, Hibiki, Kiva and Decade. But since I recently finished the Heisei Era with Blade, I think rewatching the next arc will give me a new perspective. So this is going to be a new experience for both of us!

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

And yeah, I've had very little to say about Hiryu as Another Zi-O, but he's a great obstacle to symbolize them finally working together as friends against a shallow person who rejects both of their principles.

I think it's also a great fight at this point in the show because it's basically Geiz and Sougo speedrunning the entire first 28 episodes worth of villains -- in one battle sequence -- due to their friendship? That's a cool way to show how much more powerful they are as friends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

No, this actually makes sense. The Swartz on the bus was his past self, so he doesn't have his purple coat yet at that point.

So, I got this, but if the show is saying he suddenly switched up from dressing like a Smooth Criminal to dressing like a Kingdom Hearts protagonist... like, that is a pretty big ask of the audience. I mean, it can happen (Gentoku!), but I'd need a decently-sized fan club video to connect those dots.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Not sure! I think Heure's character is the most interesting of the Time Jackers, but he's so tiny. Like, smaller than Chalice tiny. Very difficult to not get weirded out by seeing an actor that small get roughed up by monsters.

He's literally a child compared to others, he was born in 2002. But where did you get Chalice tiny? Kenzaki was one of the taller main Rider actor just that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 28 - ?OUR GOAL 2019?

As someone who only really cares about these shows when I can invest in the characters and their relationships (even if it?s just some random one-off story with guest stars), the epic conclusion to this story about Sougo and Geiz?z really real friendship was delightful. It?s a hard-fought effort to stop looking at haunted pasts or doomed futures, but to focus on the support and value of the present. There was a semi-healthy friendship that Geiz was blowing up because of what might happen in the future, and that?s a terrible way to live your life. It?s also a great way to get yourself killed, if you think so little of Right Now that you?re willing to use a deadly power-up just to save an uncertain future. Everything with the two of them in this episode worked for me.

For sure Sougo and Geiz part here is by far the best part, but it's about it being executed well rather than about it using characters and relationships. While the last few episodes has shown that Sougo has a capacity of evil, at least 2 traits in his hidden sinister manipulative side and his denial to his sorrow, Sougo is still most of the time a sweet and empathetic hero, and both traits there are also kinda solved with Sougo accepting his Mirror Self (dark side) and Junichiro reprimanding him for it. Everyone does have mistakes and bad choices, but doesn't mean that everyone is the same morally wise like lumping villains like Heure together with the heroes like treating his actions as "someone who just made mistakes before", mistakes are different from deliberately harming others and Heure has only done bad things before but now the Time Jacker "bond" has cracked to have him do something else. Sougo being actually sweet boy in the present, with the dark side still tiny for now unlike for Ohma Zi-O, eventually won over Geiz fully here, it has been clearly proven that Sougo most of the time puts others above him and does good things for them including Geiz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The other drawback is more slight, but I found the resolution to Tsukuyomi?s crisis of faith to be hilariously obtuse, with her basically saying that they should believe in Sougo because the Time Jackers might be up to something. This is? this is not new information! The Time Jackers have been up to something since literally the first episode! We still don?t know what, exactly, Swartz is up to, so Tsukuyomi reverting to Episode 24 Tsukuyomi as the result of more questions than answers feels hopelessly insufficient to the recent shift in the status quo. (I mean, there?s also Tsukuyomi seeing an 8-year old Sougo use his Time Powers to save lives, but: also not new information.) I probably laughed harder than Geiz and Sougo at her 11th-hour arrival to defuse a defused situation, since she might as well have arrived from an earlier, better point in her character arc.

This is a comedic moment yeah. I guess this also shows about how previously, as "Time Mom" in your terms, Tsukuyomi was the reasonable one in the group compared to the lazy dope Sougo and bullheaded oaf Geiz. But now, Sougo and Geiz has grown into a healthier, more well-adjusted individuals, thus now they don't seem "insane" anymore compared to her, added up to the fact that after they develop, the story focuses on uncovering Tsukuyomi's actual flaw, sloppy as it is, and while she returns now it's shown by her being now the one that looks bad compared to the previously more immature Sougo and Geiz. If you'd say Sougo's achilles heel was his optimism, Tsukuyomi's kinda the same, she was won over by Sougo far faster, but that'd be the one that made her put him on pedestal, and had her judgment blinded, with her optimism and gut feelings. Other than that it's new info for Swartz (him alone, not other Time Jackers) actually choosing Sougo to be the candidate for the king, not trying to disable Ohma Zi-O, and Sougo was someone special if he can use time powers without Kamen Rider powers and as a child.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Another Zi-O didn?t really become anything worth caring about (the show never found any nuance to his grudge that?d help it cover four episodes), but he certainly allowed for an epic battle! The fire of Geiz and Sougo?s reaffirmed friendship (shut up, Geiz, you were already friends) was so hot it melted a snowy parking lot, which is pretty goddamn special. Their teamwork through the Another Rider battle royale was exquisite, with them coordinating attacks and sharing power-ups. Just a great front-to-back action sequence of two Rider Bros overcoming the odds for a well-deserved victory.

If this is the last time Hiryu's gonna be seen, then yeah I'd say his resolution isn't really handled well that after some build up, it's just simply Sougo telling him to get over it (but in a nice way) in face of heavy emotional burden. But this isn't the last of Hiryu that'd be seen, he's already shown to be petty and spiteful here, but well, I posted a picture of Narutaki before regarding his talk. Their battle, it shows that Sougo and Geiz are actually unstoppable as teammates, it can be argued that they spent a good amount of their screentime being at odds with each others (one sided, and then it's circumstancial for Geiz's fight as Geiz Revive, not out of hatred anymore) to practically nerf their capabilities! They also defeated Another Zi-O and his entire army while they're injured too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I?m more excited for the future than I am for this episode, which is maybe the exact wrong lesson to draw from it. (Sorry, Sougo!) I love that Team Zi-O is back together under one roof, and that Woz is officially part of the team, and that Geiz hates it. The road to get here was bumpy, though, so I don?t love that part. The Time Jacker stuff is still nebulous, Hat Woz is still vaguely untrustworthy, Tsukasa is still the Wild Card who coasts on charisma in lieu of a coherent strategy, and the last four episodes of Tsukuyomi?s arc is something I am going to erase from my brain at the end of this sentence. But Geiz and Sougo?s friendship! Boy, that?s worth at least four uneven episodes.

White Woz is not 'still', as I said before White Woz is more rotten than he appears. He doesn't actually have a sympathy towards even Geiz. He only cares about Geiz killing Sougo so his timeline comes to pass, otherwise he'd let Geiz perish by his hyped up power. White Woz also refered to Geiz as "my savior", which literally means only a personal savior for him only as in making his timeline a reality, others who suffer from this be damned. He even now refered that his envisioned world would only benefit the few, likely only him! It was a spoiler before, but not anymore, the main problem in the world White Woz envisioned isn't Geiz or his psychological and emotional issues, but White Woz himself. Regarding Tsukasa here, his portrayal here is quite sinister, he'd still go through drastic way to destroy the world if Sougo does ended up become Ohma Zi-O as if he was talking about the weather. He had completely calm expression as bus driver before because he doesn't seem to really care for those children (or their parents) on the bus. For erasing Tsukuyomi's arc lately... dunno if that actually does play a part on Geiz's praise of Sougo's morals here, which seemingly is done on different level compared to Geiz's feelings to Tsukuyomi.

[Enchilada645]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

So, I got this, but if the show is saying he suddenly switched up from dressing like a Smooth Criminal to dressing like a Kingdom Hearts protagonist... like, that is a pretty big ask of the audience. I mean, it can happen (Gentoku!), but I'd need a decently-sized fan club video to connect those dots.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Swartz is clearly taking cues from famous Seiyu, Aoi Shouta.



Note that this works because Aoi Shouta being a time traveler and wearing this outfit predates the Time Jackers conception because of the anime finale taking place in March of 2018. Long before Zi-O aired.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It's definitely the one Sougo/Geiz thing in the episode that was puzzling to me? There's no reason for them to fight at this point in the episode; Geiz has already said that he doesn't believe Sougo's a threat. I sort of wrote it off as Geiz still wanting to see if he could take Sougo in a fight (sparring, more than fighting), but if anyone has a better read on this part of the episode, please let me know!

If you're saying Geiz wouldn't want to fight Sougo at that point because of something Geiz personally feels, I think your question might contain its own answer. He may only finally say it out loud to Hiryuu, but Geiz has probably been thinking of Sougo as a friend for quite a while to that point, and the crux of him becoming Geiz Revive to begin with was that he convinced himself all of that was irrelevant. As you said yourself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Sougo might be a hero, if the world weren?t trying to kill him for being a villain. A fight now, between Zi-O II and Geiz Revive, will at least settle things. If Geiz wins, the future is saved. If Zi-O wins, then maybe Sougo can be the good king that no one else believed in. Either way, the stress of indecision is just about gone.

Geiz even brings up Tsukuyomi before their aborted final showdown at the very end, so it's clear the weight of that is still on his mind. My take on it has always been that that's exactly why the two of them just bust out laughing when she shows up and says they don't need to fight anymore. Because they see Tsukuyomi is fine, and before she even says a word, they both kinda already got that they just lost half the reason they're still bothering with this.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

He's literally a child compared to others, he was born in 2002. But where did you get Chalice tiny? Kenzaki was one of the taller main Rider actor just that.

Kenzaki is not tiny, no. Hajime, however, is a pocket-sized Rider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

For sure Sougo and Geiz part here is by far the best part, but it's about it being executed well rather than about it using characters and relationships.

I think that's selling the Long Game part of this arc short? This isn't a random two-part story with some iffy concepts that the cast and crew salvaged; this was the culmination of twenty-eight episodes worth of plots and subplots. It's a great scene because the actors are great, but it's a great story because of months of setup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchilada645

Note that this works because Aoi Shouta being a time traveler and wearing this outfit predates the Time Jackers conception because of the anime finale taking place in March of 2018. Long before Zi-O aired.

Note that Swartz is a TIME TRAVELER, HE TRAVELS THROUGH TIME, HE CAN PREDATE WHATEVER HE WANTS

YOU FOOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

As you said yourself:

First off, how dare you throw my words back at me. I was not aware this was all being saved! I thought we were all just friends hanging out and talking about Kamen Rider. Rude!

Secondly, I feel like a lot of Geiz'z actions (and words!) in this episode are undoing that nihilistic stance from previous episodes. The idea that Sougo is a problem he has to solve -- violently -- feels like something Geiz had moved past. Maybe I give that kid too much credit!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Geiz even brings up Tsukuyomi before their aborted final showdown at the very end, so it's clear the weight of that is still on his mind. My take on it has always been that that's exactly why the two of them just bust out laughing when she shows up and says they don't need to fight anymore. Because they see Tsukuyomi is fine, and before she even says a word, they both kinda already got that they just lost half the reason they're still bothering with this.

Technically, it's Sougo who brings up Tsukuyomi first (he's asking Geiz to bring everyone home to 9-to-5), but it's definitely something Geiz can't quite bring himself to confront.

I think you're probably right about why Geiz and Sougo are still going to fight each other (Sougo promised Geiz, and Geiz still has Tsukuyomi's blood on his hands), but I wish this episode had given each of them a line of dialogue or two to explain things.

[DreamSword]

I ended up not being a fan of this two-parter.

I think, when it gets right down to it, I feel like these episodes tried to juggle too much at once?

Hot take I know, but I feel as though it should've focused alot less on Geiz and Sogo. Because the thing is, those two coming to terms was a given to begin with, and the show trying to pull a platonic "will-they-won't-they" falls incredibly flat when they were clearly already Have, as evidence by a ton of episodes before this point. This easily could've all been done and dealt with in a single dedicated episode.

Meanwhile, all of the other things these episodes have to offer, of which I found way more interesting, end up taking a backseat due to this. Tsukuyomi, Woz, and yes, even Hiryu, were all things that I was way more invested in here.

And then there is of course the matter of Tsukasa. My distaste for him aside, he felt incredibly pointless; His only reason for even being a part of this being a way to get Tsukuyomi back to the present faster, which even then really didn't feel needed. Heck, even Tsukuyomi's' part in the plot ends up not mattering much in the grand scheme of things.

A few episodes ago I called Hiryu "Alister" and to fill those who might not get what I mean, the character of Alister in Yu-Gi-Oh actually has an incredibly similar backstory to that of Hiryu here, and unfortunately, he also ended up suffering the same fate that Alister did: Incredibly underdeveloped despite having a ton of great potential. It's a damn shame, and I really did not like how his arc appears to be resolved with Sogo simply going up to him and going "Hey, yeah, sorry, but let's just get over it, I guess."

Alot of potential in these four episodes, but none of it landed for me.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

I think, when it gets right down to it, I feel like these episodes tried to juggle too much at once?

I'd agree with this, even if I'd, uh, pick the exact opposite thing to expand to full-length. I never felt like the mystery of 2009 sat well beside a modern-day conflict between Geiz and Sougo. Both stories are doing different things, with different objectives, and it made for a frequently disjointed experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

It's a damn shame, and I really did not like how his arc appears to be resolved with Sogo simply going up to him and going "Hey, yeah, sorry, but let's just get over it, I guess."

I didn't really see it that way?

For Hiryuu's side of things, he definitely doesn't seem like he's resolved anything with Sougo. He's screaming in impotent rage, which is usually a sign that someone is not super ready to move on from their trauma. Also, there's that little shot of the Another Zi-O Ridewatcch reforming, which hints at this story getting a follow-up down the line.

For Sougo's side... I mean, this is one of the points of this story, that you can't let yourself get locked into past recriminations or tragedies, nor can you feel guilty for other people's choices. Hiryuu isn't ever going to get anything more from Sougo than an acknowledgement that a horrific accident happened, it happened because Sougo was on the bus, and they were both scarred by it. More than that... like, what can Sougo do besides let this guy feel seen? And hope that he can process his shit?

With an underdeveloped, one-note dude like Hiryuu, I thought Sougo's talk with him was empathetic, while still being realistic.