[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

As for the whole Riders erased by Another Riders. I’ve seen some people complain about it, but I personally like it. It adds some actual stakes for the bad guys and some actual consequences for the heroes (Or did you think Geiz got the Ghost Ridewatch off the back of a cereal box?) and I much prefer it to how Gokaiger handled de powering it’s heroes (after spending 3 minutes beating up mooks, every Super Sentai decides that they’re losing and decides to do a combined energy attack. Which accomplished little in the long term, since the army that sent the mooks came back anyway).

This gets into one of my biggest problems with the show and one of the things that really put me off about it initially. I like the idea of the Another Riders stealing the originals’ powers and subsequently erasing their established history. It’s a good gimmick for an anniversary season that has a time travel element as it gives the hero a purpose behind all of these crossovers. The part that never sat right with me, though, is that the show doesn’t go with the logical extension of this idea, which would be having Sougo get the Ridewatches and restore the original timeline. Instead he just keeps the powers for himself, leaving us with stuff like Sentai and Banjou: Ordinary Dorks.

I suppose, on reflection, that it does tie into the idea that Zi-O may not be the hero you expect him to be. I?m kind of just realizing that as I type this. In hindsight, that does fix some of my issues from a narrative standpoint. It doesn’t fix my issues with the way some of the earlier guest appearances worked, though. I’ll dive into that more in a few episodes, though.

Anyway, this episode does properly introduce my least favorite aspect of Zi-O (technically, it was in the first episode, but not in the way that makes it really stand out). I’m talking, of course, about Geiz’s tactical dickie. I am not a fan of Geiz’s battle jammies at the best of times, but then he showed up at the end of this episode in normal civvies but still wearing the fucking dickie, buckles and all. I don’t know if the producers thought kids wouldn’t recognize him or Tsukoyomi without a piece of their normal costumes, but the fact that Geiz wears that thing with every outfit is ridiculous. It is the dumbest fashion decision in all of Kamen Rider, and this a franchise that includes both Shunpei and the 1970s. I have a lot of issues with Geiz, which I have mentioned before and will do so again in this thread, but the tactical dickie is by far the worst element of the character.

[Fish Sandwich]

(Fish Sandwich also watched Kamen Rider Zi-O - EP02)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Hey everyone, guess what time it is!

When I started my post on the first episode that way, it was just a bit. When I was waffling on whether or not to make the same joke the next week, I was torn because I realized I'd be creating an obligation for myself to repeat that gag 40+ more times. But you know, it was also convenient. Having that guaranteed place to start writing from without having to think about it too much. Just find a screenshot I like enough, and go from there. I have to imagine it's a similar deal for Die?

Anyways, on the subject of the actual episode itself, while you can see in my original post that I was never hesitant to express the sense of trepidation I got from Zi-O even as I was massively enjoying it, there was one particular nagging thought I'm not sure I ever really brought up anywhere at the time.

You see, I got into Kamen Rider by watching the first few episodes of OOO, Kuuga, and Ryuki in a very short window. They're collectively my "first" show, and there's one thing they all have in common about how they started gripping me -- the second episode. Yuusuke in that burning church, declaring his intent to protect people's smiles; Shinji ripping up that card, putting his own life at risk to protect others; Eiji refusing to be Aknh's mindless servant even as he's about to fall off a building to his own death. The premieres for each of those shows established the world, but I think it's in the episode that followed where they truly established their heroes, and because that was my formative experience with the franchise, it's something I've come to expect from every Rider show I've watched since. Putting it in terms of Ex-Aid, for example, because I love to do that in these threads, you've got a second episode that ends with Emu deciding to stick with CR as a Rider specifically because he doesn't like Brave, looking straight at Hiiro and saying he doesn't trust a doctor like him to care about patients the way he does. And in that moment, just like the three I mentioned, I gained a lot of respect for the star of the show.

So then, Zi-O comes along, and you've got Sougo's whole speech about making time move for yourself in this episode. Looking at it in the broad strokes, it's another example of exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about -- Sougo defining what his beliefs are and how that becomes his driving motivation as a hero -- except, for the life of me, I just couldn't really get a grasp on it at the time. Saying it felt "hollow" wouldn't exactly be right, but like, when you see Kuuga in that church, you are rooting for that dude to save people 150%, you know? I wasn't feeling that for Zi-O in that moment. It was one of the things that made me genuinely worried, if only a little, that this show was going to end up being underwhelming and messy in the long run. But as you can also see in my original post, I was kinda watching Zi-O with a lot of faith? Like Sougo saying "nanka ikeru ki ga suru!!", I took it all in stride, considering the more positive possibility that by the time the show was over, a speech like that would feel like a crucially important part of how Zi-O established its running themes and messages. And you know, I can't say anything too explicit about how that turned out right now, but I will say that I was glad I always kept this scene in mind as the show moved forward.

...

Also! I'm going to forget to bring this up if I don't right now, and since you just got done with his initial set of episodes, I wanna give a shout out to Ryuuta Tasaki's direction for being up to the extremely high standard he always meets. There was a bunch of talk about the opening I didn't comment on, but yeah, I liked Over Quartzer as soon as I heard it, finding it an interesting contrast to Journey Through The Decade in its tone, and then I saw the visuals that go with it, and I liked it even more than I already did. There's just nothing like a good Tasaki opening. Actually, I've been reminiscing about myself a bunch, but I'd kinda like to turn back the clock on Tasaki for a moment too, and bring up just how long he's been directing some of the most stylish opening in Toei's tokusatsu shows. His first main director gig was for Seijuu Sentai Gingaman way back in 1998, but the year before that, he was apparently responsible for the opening of Denji Sentai Megaranger, and while it doesn't look like the credits explicitly mention that anywhere(?), when I first found that out, it was like a big puzzle piece falling into place.

Like, of course Megaranger's opening is one of my favorites in the franchise visually, if it was Tasaki's work. Of course it's cut in such a modern and energetic way that still holds up even now. Of course it manages to get across key traits of the main characters in just a couple shots each. Of course it's so stylish and just downright cool. You give this guy a song that already slaps, and he'll make it even cooler for you. This is very much the case with Zi-O's opening, which has loads of neat visuals, a couple of which end up holding more meaning that it seems like at first. It's also one of the few places you're going to consistently see Zi-O and Geiz on their Ride Strikers! Their poor, poor, neglected Ride Strikers...

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

See, I enjoyed Den-O a lot and I just never cared at all about how much the time travel stuff might occasionally (or often) not make sense, and I was all ready to just roll with the nonsense in Zi-O too. But Zi-O's 2.5 kind of rubs me the wrong way because if you're going to acknowledge that it's all just nonsense anyway, then maybe don't spend so much screentime trying to make to 'explain' it or make it sound like it'll be a big deal? My biggest hope for the show from there on was that they didn't linger on that stuff...

Thankfully, these shows never seem to linger on the series arc mechanics. Between the main thematic goal of any of the franchise (To Sell Toys), the individual themes a series might want to talk about (history vs History; the ways we have to keep trying, even if things look bleak), the big guest-stars, the growing supporting cast... like, there's only a little time in the later series to even address Time Nonsense. It sucks now, today, but it's probably not going to be a huge chunk of an episode weekly.

It sucks now, though!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

As for the whole Riders erased by Another Riders. I?ve seen some people complain about it, but I personally like it. It adds some actual stakes for the bad guys and some actual consequences for the heroes (Or did you think Geiz got the Ghost Ridewatch off the back of a cereal box?) and I much prefer it to how Gokaiger handled de powering it?s heroes (after spending 3 minutes beating up mooks, every Super Sentai decides that they?re losing and decides to do a combined energy attack. Which accomplished little in the long term, since the army that sent the mooks came back anyway).

I'm okay with Build being depowered for the middle of this story, but... is Build's power gone forever? As long as Zi-O has the RideWatch? Is that what's happening? I am honestly unclear!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkibaSilver

Trying to write a defence of his character based on the first two episodes is tough, but I think there's value to be had in his childlike naivety making him justs come across as a child (without, you know, actually having an 8 year old Rider lik the last anniversary show). He wants to be a King much for the same reason a child might - because it's cool, and he'd definitely make people happy - and doesn't quite see how anyone could disagree. It's a point I feel's made better in future episodes (and as Switchblade said, the first episode is throwing enough things at you), but it goes some interesting places. It also has the side effect of making Sougo feel much, much younger than any other Rider for me!

I'm better with him in this episode, because he comes off like more of a bumbler, and that's a character trait I find more charming than Potential War Criminal But In A Good Way. Seeing him be not super great at anything he's asked to do in this episode (including remember Sento's catchphrase for four seconds!) was a more entertaining use of his character than the stuff from the premiere.

Also, Sougo's incredibly poor grasp of the mathematical formulas that power Kamen Rider Build reminded me of this sketch (since we're posting funny YouTube videos):

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrandComplete

The end of the second episode for me describes what I feel about what ZI-O is trying to say about legacy that these people are who they are no matter what even if it's impossible. That we'd rather focus on the person rather than powers. And also to reassure people that no the Heisei Riders are going permenatly deleted from existence that they will come back.

That is good to know! My reading on it was a lot less optimistic!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layton13

The first six episodes all suck! Like straight up. They really struggle with the format and a lot of the character beats that are there are easily missed under all the exposition and weirdness. Even if they work way better on a rewatch since you are able to pick them up under all the... stuff, it doesn't change the fact I don't consider them good episodes.

Also, yeah, I had the exact same opinion of Sougo as you do at this time. A complete idiot who I'm surprised can tie his shoes in the morning with a dumb and stupid goal I could never take seriously.

So... Yeah, just wait and things will most likely change on that front

But I say this much, I feel like this is the reading of the character they wanted to push at this point... And it has a point.

I am excited to see a more positive version of Sougo! Although, honestly, I think his character in Episode 2 is leaps and bounds better than Episode 1, since they pretty much (for reasons of expediency or lack of time) choose to ignore the weirder choices they made with his character in the premiere. He comes across less delusional, and more as just some sorta-aimless, sorta-sweet kid. Worked for me!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchilada645

Yeah, I'll definitely admit the first set of episodes are... I wouldn't say terrible, but they are a bit rough around the edges because of what they have to do. Though I do feel as though things smooth out and get a lot more interesting in terms of episode plots when we reach a certain point. Mostly in them finally finding a handle on things despite the very, and I mean very fluid and unstable nature of how they handled this series.

Oh, sure. The people making the show are watching the same episodes we are. They can't feel like they hit a bullseye on these two. Stuff works on the page, but doesn't work on the day. Stuff works on the day, but gets ruined in the edit. A performer hasn't yet locked in on how they see their character. Premiere stories are really hard! It's often not until the fifth or sixth episode when a show really becomes itself, when the production team starts writing toward the actors (instead of the characters) and a better balance is found.

These thing, appropriately enough, take time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

In other words, I already like this show way more than Decade. It actually has a protag that I don't wanna toss into a raging river whenever he so much as opens his mouth. What a novelty!

I'm glad you're enjoying it! We... had very opposite experiences!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

We get our 2nd episode bike debut, and here's a picture just to remind you of Zi-O's bike which is totally a thing that exists:

Thank you for letting me mention that this wasn't just a Build tribute, it was a tribute to the very early Heisei Era when a Kamen Rider would ride a motorcycle for a scene or two in each episode. Fun callback! Deep cut!

[GrandComplete]

It honestly funny that ZI-O an anniversary season of Kamen Rider has the least used bike in all of Rider history.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 2 - ?BEST MATCH 2017?

Thankfully, it stays away from the aspects of Sougo?s personality I really disliked from last time, so it?s an overall decent episode. The character relationships were solid, the action was fun, and the Legend Rider stuff was well executed. As twenty-odd minutes of tokusatsu, it was fine.

Sougo's Build Vortex Time Break aren't merely "not technically math", but as an idiot everyman who can be out of touch with reality at times.... it's some utterly simplistic and basic knowledge; "Learned in First Grade", "Nothing but Numbers", "Part I don't understand", "Alphabet", "Some difficult numbers", "Lucky number x Lucky number". I think that's one of the more creative comedy bit. And for the main trio, here starts the usual non-family but living together bit in KR as Junichiro accepts them to live in his house together with Sougo. Geiz and Tsukuyomi are undergoing new arc of them being confused if Sougo is really Ohma Zi-O, due to him being helpful and well-meaning morally wise. That speaks on Junichiro's character of being someone so accepting, warm, and welcoming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Build and Cross-Z! They?re very fun in this episode. Certainly acting as a beacon for this show?s odd couple Riders, and only mostly making the new show feel slighter in comparison. (Like, dang, I don?t know if giving Sento and Banjou so much screentime is great for establishing how cool your new leads are! Tough to measure up!) They?re fun to have around, even if they?re basically comedy relief. That?s okay! Them two kids are real funny together!

Sento and Banjou's bromance is even inherited in Another Build, that part it actually made him sort of real Build, as he clings into Banjou and claims they're best match (with Banjou being creeped out ofc). Sento even felt oddly jealous of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It?s just, boy, mostly didn?t understand the time travel shenanigans in this one?

It confused me too, but it's more of me expecting what'd happen in an anniversary series rather than the time travel shit (albeit it won't help). Regarding Heure, which is the boyish Time Jacker, yeah they want to undo Ohma Zi-O and replace him with someone else, I don't think at this point, the episode is meant to explain everything regarding Time Jacker, at this point it just shows that Time Jacker's method to overthrow Ohma Zi-O is creating Another Rider, just it for now. Probably it relates on how Sougo will become more and more dangerous the more Rider power he obtained thus if Time Jacker creates Another Riders, they won't fall into Sougo's hand. What Woz wants is to serve Ohma Zi-O, he's about loyalty to his king (happens to be well-meaning person at this point, thus he'd inadvertently doing good albeit short-term by supporting this version of Sougo).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O COMPLEMENTATION PROJECT EPISODE 2.5 - ?RULES OF THE WORLD?

It? it really wants to have its nerd cake and eat it, too. It wants to have firm guidelines about what the cause and effect of these time alteration stories are, while still relegating a random amount of cause and effect questions to snarky avoidance. Like, this is the problem with Time Nonsense. You only get a certain amount of narrative waffling, and you can?t overuse it, or none of it is worth investing in. You can?t ask people to pay attention to weird details and complicated causality, and then at least once an episode be like We?re Just Trying To Have Fun Here Brainiac.

This universe rules had only 1 Rider can exist thus Another Build will overwrite the real Build.... but there's easy solution if Another Build is beaten, all the changes are reverted back. The other one is just a simple battle-rule, Another Rider can be beaten by the same Rider's power thus Sougo uses BuildArmor to beat Another Build. Though yes the rule 3 deliberately insist to not ask questions... this part seems to be just a comedic bit.

[Androzani84]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I'm okay with Build being depowered for the middle of this story, but... is Build's power gone forever? As long as Zi-O has the RideWatch? Is that what's happening? I am honestly unclear!!

To paraphrase a quote by a wise man, “Too much RabbiTank energy is dangerous”. So at this point, the only Build power is in the watch.

And because I didn’t mention him in my last post, I?ll bring up the Another Build here. His human self gets no name, because Shirakura planned to bring him back later (and in a series where ideas were thrown out due to budget, scheduling and time constraints, he actually did reappear). And I’ll mention that he sets the mood for the Another Riders be being the exact opposite of the original (Namely, he’s a dumb butt-face who traps people in Smashbottles, contrasting how Sento was a genius physicist who freed people from Smash essence) and beginning the trend of the Another Riders having traits of the monsters from the series they represent (in his case, his body is made of scrap metal and he goes more berserk with every bottle he ingests, similar to the Smash). If that doesn’t give you an idea of what to expect from the rest, I don’t know what will.

[cosmicrescend0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

Anyway, this episode does properly introduce my least favorite aspect of Zi-O (technically, it was in the first episode, but not in the way that makes it really stand out). I’m talking, of course, about Geiz’s tactical dickie. I am not a fan of Geiz’s battle jammies at the best of times, but then he showed up at the end of this episode in normal civvies but still wearing the fucking dickie, buckles and all. I don’t know if the producers thought kids wouldn’t recognize him or Tsukoyomi without a piece of their normal costumes, but the fact that Geiz wears that thing with every outfit is ridiculous. It is the dumbest fashion decision in all of Kamen Rider, and this a franchise that includes both Shunpei and the 1970s. I have a lot of issues with Geiz, which I have mentioned before and will do so again in this thread, but the tactical dickie is by far the worst element of the character.

I love, love, love that Geiz wears it all the time. I dont think we ever learn why he always wears it, but I've always chalked it up to him thinking it's really cool? So it's personally become an endearing character trait for me. (Plus he always manages to pull it off well enough with whatever he's wearing 8 times out of 10, so I don't consider it some kind of grave fashion sin.)

[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrandComplete

It honestly funny that ZI-O an anniversary season of Kamen Rider has the least used bike in all of Rider history.

I honestly forgot that Zi-O had a bike that wasn’t the CGI time travel robot.

Mostly unrelated, but I just realized while looking at this list that Revice doesn’t even have a motorcycle.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

This gets into one of my biggest problems with the show and one of the things that really put me off about it initially. I like the idea of the Another Riders stealing the originals? powers and subsequently erasing their established history. It?s a good gimmick for an anniversary season that has a time travel element as it gives the hero a purpose behind all of these crossovers. The part that never sat right with me, though, is that the show doesn?t go with the logical extension of this idea, which would be having Sougo get the Ridewatches and restore the original timeline. Instead he just keeps the powers for himself, leaving us with stuff like Sento and Banjou: Ordinary Dorks.

It's... not great!

There's a bit from the (very awful) Man of Steel movie that I'll never forget. It's near the end, after Superman has defeated the villains and their apocalyptic machinery. Metropolis is in ruins, but Superman is slowly descending towards a group of survivors, carrying Lois Lane. One of the survivors looks up at him and, voice trembling with awe, says, "He saved us."

She's saying this in the rubble of the blasted hellscape that was once Metropolis. Untold thousands have died. Possibly hundreds of thousands, as buildings were demolished in Superman's brawl with General Zod.

"He saved us."

It's a hilariously misapplied sentiment, the filmmakers missing the devastated forest for the character arc trees. Superman is now seen as a hero by the people of Metropolis! ...it just took most of them dying for him to get this reward.

It's like that with Zi-O's end to this Build story, where Sougo and Geiz have overcome this monster, gained new powers, saved the day... and it only cost us one of my favorite Kamen Rider shows. Hooray for our new heroes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Having that guaranteed place to start writing from without having to think about it too much. Just find a screenshot I like enough, and go from there. I have to imagine it's a similar deal for Die?

Here's some Behind The Curtain info: the screencaps come last for me, not first. I'll pull a whole bunch as I watch something -- good lines, funny gags, cool shots -- and then write up the post. When the post is done, I'll try to find a couple images that help explain/support the tone of the post. Like, Episode 1's post was intensely critical of Sougo's debut, so I needed to use these two:





I wish I had a good jumping-off point for these posts! I basically just start writing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

So then, Zi-O comes along, and you've got Sougo's whole speech about making time move for yourself in this episode. Looking at it in the broad strokes, it's another example of exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about -- Sougo defining what his beliefs are and how that becomes his driving motivation as a hero -- except, for the life of me, I just couldn't really get a grasp on it at the time. Saying it felt "hollow" wouldn't exactly be right, but like, when you see Kuuga in that church, you are rooting for that dude to save people 150%, you know? I wasn't feeling that for Zi-O in that moment. It was one of the things that made me genuinely worried, if only a little, that this show was going to end up being underwhelming and messy in the long run.

Yeah, it's a weakness in the episode, that it doesn't really try for that Decade-style Tsukasa Explains It All moment, to loop in Build's themes to the current conflict that Team Zi-O is trying to overcome. We get Sougo's whole Subjugation Doesn't Need To Be Mean speech from the first episode, which... wasn't exactly what I was looking for, and then the speech in this one about needing to motivate yourself.

Neither speech has that early punch that helps define a Rider's process or journey or whatever. They're each problematic in different ways. The first one is horrifying if you think about it for even three seconds (which would be two seconds longer than Sougo thought about it), and the second one... I just don't really get it? I think I do -- I read it as Sougo valuing personal motivation over outside instruction -- but it's hardly the sort of crystal-clear But Why Heroism that you'd hope for.

I think this show will get there, though. I also have faith.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

That speaks on Junichiro's character of being someone so accepting, warm, and welcoming.

A little, yeah! They're also paying him money for that room, so...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Regarding Heure, which is the boyish Time Jacker, yeah they want to undo Ohma Zi-O and replace him with someone else, I don't think at this point, the episode is meant to explain everything regarding Time Jacker, at this point it just shows that Time Jacker's method to overthrow Ohma Zi-O is creating Another Rider, just it for now.

Sure, I wasn't really expecting more than that. I think the episode did a decent job of explaining what Heure and the Time Jackers were after. They didn't do a great job of explaining how this plan would help them do that, but I don't really care about the details that much. Bad Guys Want To Beat Good Guys is plenty at Episode 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

To paraphrase a quote by a wise man, ?Too much RabbiTank energy is dangerous?. So at this point, the only Build power is in the watch.

And because I didn?t mention him in my last post, I?ll bring up the Another Build here. His human self gets no name, because Shirakura planned to bring him back later (and in a series where ideas were thrown out due to budget, scheduling and time constraints, he actually did reappear). And I?ll mention that he sets the mood for the Another Riders be being the exact opposite of the original (Namely, he?s a dumb butt-face who traps people in Smashbottles, contrasting how Sento was a genius physicist who freed people from Smash essence) and beginning the trend of the Another Riders having traits of the monsters from the series they represent (in his case, his body is made of scrap metal and he goes more berserk with every bottle he ingests, similar to the Smash). If that doesn?t give you an idea of what to expect from the rest, I don?t know what will.

Thanks for the info in the first paragraph!

The second paragraph is starting to steer a little bit into spoiler territory (please don't mention if someone comes back!), so if we can tone the specifics down, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!