[SPLIT LIP]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

PART ONE:

I don't think it's a controversial thing to say that a Rider series tends to document a flawed character who becomes a hero over the course of a 45-50 episode journey.

It's not, but also a ton of Western superheroes do the same.

I'd say Marvel's defining feature is that most of it's heroes are flawed types overcoming/coping with their shortcomings.

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Since Rider series have a finite amount of time to tell their stories, and the major story is about how the rider overcomes his flaw to become a true hero, we don't see much of the actual super hero phase of his life.

Only problem is most of the time these shows have pointless filler, rather than anything important to the story.

And that doesn't mean they can't still be heroes at the same time.

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PART TWO:

I'd also like to present the notion that, despite the Superhero Time branding, most Kamen Riders are Chosen Ones as opposed to superheroes.

Kamen Rider doesn't take on muggers or petty street crime because his goal is to defeat his Fated Enemy. He has bigger fish to fry, as it were.

That's all fine and dandy, but seeing as riders still fight a monster every week, I don't see why they always have to be late to the action.

Why couldn't Kiva have arrived to save everyone, verses arriving to see them freshly drained? And why does he not care? Where's the bigger fish? He doesn't give a shit about ANYTHING. Ditto Agito, who hardly ever even acknowledged the fact that he was a rider to the point where I thought he didn't know, not that he was selfishly and moronically ignoring it in favour of his God-damn tomatoes.

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PART THREE:

Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

It really seems like the needs of the rider outweigh the needs of anybody.

This is why, and I know all of your are gonna fucking hate me for doing this AGAIN, but W is the best rider so far. He did help people. He was able to safeguard the many by helping the few. He ran a detective agency that easily let him into the happenings of the gaia memory underworld. He helped people, saved lives, and was a hero. The people looked up to him. "Kamen Rider!" they'd shout, knowing if that scarf was blowing in the wind, everything was gonna be okay. This didn't stop him from having problems. Shotaro had massive emotional hurdles to overcome with the guilt he carried over his boss' death, and later coming to terms with being "the weak half" of W. Philip searching for the truth about his family, and what happened when he learned the truth.

They had personal lives, they had problems. But saving people came first. When Shotaro would say "there'll be no tears in my city" he wasn't just making bullshit statements like Kuuga. He meant it, and he busted ass and would risk his life to make sure the people smiled. Shotaro and Philip didn't leave a trail of bodies, they didn't wait around doing nothing until after the Dopant had run amok. If their were casualities, it was never on them. They investigated, they didn't have an unexplained sixth sense or magic violin to tell them where the monster was. Hell, even Ryu was a one-track vengence-seeker, and he'd still save people. (and of course, the best part is Accel gets his revenge, but isn't poisoned by it) The best part of W was easily Shotaro, though, as he totally destroys your reasoning. He takes on the final boss untransformed because he wants to save everyone, including his partner. Dude consistently put everything aside instantly for good. Not the greater good, but good in general. And like I've said before, he frequently used his powers to save people. Mostly Luna's stretch-grab ability.

OOO was also like this, and Kouta so far is, too. And Haruto. (sorry Fourze, never watched you) W's not the only example of a true hero, but he is the best for this debate. Granted, rider shows lately also don't sabotage the heroics by having the monsters being constant killers. Honestly that's for the better. By being twisted humans, wild animals or something not focused purely on killing, the monsters have a reason for not just killing everyone in the city. For example, I don't understand why the Fangire a) don't attack all the time, or b) don't ever have two Fangire or more attack. Sure is contrived and convenient. And sorry Locke, but I GOT to mention the scene in Wizard when Pheonix suggested blowing up a chunk of the city, as that would logically caused a bunch of people to despair and swell their forces against Wizard, and Medusa said no because he might kill a few gates, verses Wizard killing every Phantom and saving every person as things are. Point is, this is how monsters in old Kamen Rider seem all the time. By being just straight up monsters of evil, the shows foolishly remove reason for them not to all-out rampage, or band together. And yet despite the infrequency of the attacks, Wataru still hesitates to fuss and moan about not getting his fucking varnish right when his dad violin starts, while innocent people, sometimes familes, are being killed horribly.

He values violin varnish over human lives. How is that a hero?

I know it sounds like I'm really picking on the fundamentals of Kamen Rider. I'm not. But you see how the "multiple civilian deaths and apathetic Rider" causes more problems than just having an unheroic hero. Or at least have the point be that he's unheroic. If Kiva was truely apathetic, and was a dark, selfish person and, say, Shizuka was the justice-filled one goading him into saving people before fighting a monster, that'd be different. That'd be brillaint, really. If an average person saw this power being used so selfishly and tried to make Kiva more heroic. That'd be a really good idea, and fit with the suit well.

Despite this long rambling, my entire point can honestly be summed up in a simple comparrison:

When a monster attacks a person in W, he kicks them away and helps the person to safety before fighting. When a monster attacks in Kiva, he kicks it away and immediately attacks, leaving the civilian to escape the ensuing chaos themselves. (that is, if the monster hasn't already killed the person as is usually the case)

All I'm asking is why can't we have a Rider help someone stand up and run before the fight breaks out?

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Originally Posted by Locke

A solid argument, but then it only makes me question, 'why do it like that?'.

I don't know, because W didn't, and Kiva didn't. Start of both shows they're both in full swing rider-wise, and yet they're the most poignent examples for the issue.

[Battlizer]

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Originally Posted by Ruinnatn

Hey guys, I just signed up here, I've been a member of TFW for a long time but recently started watching Kamen Rider Gaim with my 4 kids and am completely in love with it. I actually watched a review from Vangelus for the arms change AC-01 and started curiously searching the show out to see how dumb it was, little did I know the vortex of awesome I was about to be swept up in. I've watched all 14? Episodes so far and was wondering if you guys could give me suggestions of what series I could watch in between new episodes of Gaim? I also wanted you guys to know my kids are running around the house right now pretending to be the characters of the show(I've been deemed Bravo because they wanna beat me up haha), and also how hard it is to explain the premise of this show without it sounding like the dumbest thing ever. I've approached three friends of mine about it and they just give me vacant stares and a dismissive "that sounds cool I guess". Anyway happy to be a part of this community! Thanks!

Den-O's a pretty fun one. I'd start there.

[SPLIT LIP]

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Originally Posted by Ruinnatn

Hey guys, I just signed up here, I've been a member of TFW for a long time but recently started watching Kamen Rider Gaim with my 4 kids and am completely in love with it. I actually watched a review from Vangelus for the arms change AC-01 and started curiously searching the show out to see how dumb it was, little did I know the vortex of awesome I was about to be swept up in. I've watched all 14? Episodes so far and was wondering if you guys could give me suggestions of what series I could watch in between new episodes of Gaim? I also wanted you guys to know my kids are running around the house right now pretending to be the characters of the show(I've been deemed Bravo because they wanna beat me up haha), and also how hard it is to explain the premise of this show without it sounding like the dumbest thing ever. I've approached three friends of mine about it and they just give me vacant stares and a dismissive "that sounds cool I guess". Anyway happy to be a part of this community! Thanks!

Sorry I missed this, but W, OOO and Den-O are solid jumping points. They're fun series with good characters and story.

[Locke]

Man I find this thread so overwhelming

Like I just started watching Blade again, but then the thread makes me want to see if Agito really is as bad as Kuuga, and then it makes me want to give W another chance and finish Faiz but I just don't have the time for all these shows!

Also OOO and Dragon Knight are my favourite Rider shows, and the best places to start in my opinion.

[ryan]

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Sorry I missed this, but W, OOO and Den-O are solid jumping points. They're fun series with good characters and story.

I'd add Fourze to that list, it's got great characters and story, it's probably tie with Den-O for my top Rider show.

[SPLIT LIP]

If you ever decide to go back to W, considering you've seen the beginning I'd start with the Decade crossover movie as it takes place after a lot of the pointless filler you may not enjoy. (then again that's a lot of what sets up W as a hero of the people, but he's really heroic all throughout the show) Then 17 takes place afterward. W's strength is it's small scale storytelling. It doesn't pretend to be larger or more dramatic than it is, and feels more intimate as a result. The villains are trying to take over the city, not the world. (at least they're STARTING with the city) And it has some pretty solid messages.

Agito... good luck if you do, man. That show... it's basically everyone asking questions for 48 episodes, and anybody who may seem to have an answer turns out to not have one. And when the answers FINALLY come out...

Ho-boy. Good luck, man.

[Locke]

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

If you ever decide to go back to W, considering you've seen the beginning I'd start with the Decade crossover movie as it takes place after a lot of the pointless filler you may not enjoy. (then again that's a lot of what sets up W as a hero of the people, but he's really heroic all throughout the show) Then 17 takes place afterward. W's strength is it's small scale storytelling. It doesn't pretend to be larger or more dramatic than it is, and feels more intimate as a result. The villains are trying to take over the city, not the world. (at least they're STARTING with the city) And it has some pretty solid messages.

Agito... good luck if you do, man. That show... it's basically everyone asking questions for 48 episodes, and anybody who may seem to have an answer turns out to not have one. And when the answers FINALLY come out...

Ho-boy. Good luck, man.

Agito sounds a lot like Kiva

I am contemplating just going at W from the start again, being that this time I have so much more Rider to compare it too.

[SPLIT LIP]

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Originally Posted by Locke

Agito sounds a lot like Kiva

It is a lot like Kiva, just that Kiva is Agito except not pull-my-hair-out-because-it's-so-vague-and-bland-and-awful. At least Kiva give Wataru a personality, or has him acknowledge the rider stuff, and be affected by it.

You could make two entirely seperate shows about Agito as a human and a rider and have literally almost no incongruities. But the "piles of bodies before the "hero" finally gets off his ass" and "bizzare sixth sense that sends them running into battle" are two very prominent comparrisons.

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I am contemplating just going at W from the start again, being that this time I have so much more Rider to compare it too.

That's also a good idea.

But make no mistake, the movie is crucial to the resolution of an important early plotline, thus important to the show overall. Also, I shouldn't say the first 16 or so episodes are "pointless" filler, because they're not. But they are of-the-week stories and the show is much less in it's "groove." You've got insanely silly shit like "heavens tornado" or the T-rex dopant, but it still begins a lot of important development for Shotaro and Philip. It's just more thinly spread.

Also, the movie introduces two of the coolest, most memorable parts of W: Narumi Soukichi, and Fang.

[Locke]

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

But make no mistake, the movie is crucial to the resolution of an important early plotline, thus important to the show overall. Also, I shouldn't say the first 16 or so episodes are "pointless" filler, because they're not. But they are of-the-week stories and the show is much less in it's "groove." You've got insanely silly shit like "heavens tornado" or the T-rex dopant, but it still begins a lot of important development for Shotaro and Philip. It's just more thinly spread.

Also, the movie introduces two of the coolest, most memorable parts of W: Narumi Soukichi, and Fang.

Maybe I will start with the movie then, since the movie sounds like a second beginning for the show any way. Is it the movie with Decade?

[SPLIT LIP]

I don't think "second beginning" is perfectly accurate, but sounds about fitting thematically. I'd say "hits it's stride." "Begins Night" (the W portion of the crossover) is to W as "Two-Face" was to Batman: TAS. The point where the experimental foot-finding was over, and show knew what it wanted to do. W is a VERY unassuming series at first, and the movie is when you realise there's more to it's playful aloofness. It's just fun, and balances serious drama and feel-good action pretty well.

I think Den-O's is 26 episodes in, much later, but there's more important stuff (like the secondary rider) that's introduced before it, so I'd say returning to Den-O, I'd go in about the late teens/20, since I think you got farther into it. (You got to gun form, right? You should be good starting with 20)