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05-08-2021, 06:00 PM | #71 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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I would disagree on that though. Like, very very heavily disagree.
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05-08-2021, 06:04 PM | #72 |
Some guy. I'm alright.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,406
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And that's fine; I can see why someone would get the exact opposite impression. Personally though, I don't see any of it as Inoue actively trying to give some sort of free pass to stuff like that.
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05-08-2021, 06:36 PM | #73 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Ooh, ooh! You'll never guess the shocking sentence that follows after this one!
Episodes 3/4 are directed by Hidenori Ishida. Okay, you probably guessed it, but it's always a fun occasion when I get to say some version of that for the first time in a thread. The POV flashbacks here are also a very distinctly Ishida touch. He's always looking for ways to spice up those straightforward scenes. Quote:
The key to Otoya is that the show never portrays alot of what he does as a good thing. I like to think of him as the Kusaka of Kiva, personally. When the show itself acknowledges that what a character is saying or doing isn't 100% okay(unlike akira date), then I tend to give it a pass.
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(Counterpoint: I like that Yuri brought up how Otoya's massive character flaws to her boss and he was just like As Long As He Doesn't Get Killed I Don't Care What Else He Does. That is a writer who is aware that Otoya is awful, and lets Yuri by the one to protest his continued involvement. She's trying to fix things!)
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05-08-2021, 07:59 PM | #74 |
Yodonna oshi
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 748
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Quote:
I'm conflicted because I feel that zero consideration was afforded to the idea of how Otoya would appear to anyone not involved in trying to make a weekly TV show out of a toy-line in 2008, and part of why we are having this conversation is because things have changed so very much in the last 10 years or so in the way we are talking about the issues that Otoya is a lightning rod for, but also because... I think I prefer the idea of a main character who is demonstratively awful to the idea of a character who is a blank space, the kind of stock character that producers hope children will imprint on, and draw a connexion between their own fantasies and the power fantasy that the toys embody. I guess I'm thinking about this too much, but also this is the week where I came dangerously close to being cancelled for suggesting that it was possible to read a villain from Sailor Moon as a tragic character in contrast to her archetype in Greek mythology, rather than as just The Source of All Evil, so this is a very 2021 sort of vibe for me. There seems to be an increased need/demand for purity of motive in fiction from audiences lately, and an increasing level of vitriol in regards to characters who don't meet those standards, and, even worse people who like these characters, and it's a very weird time we're having culturally in the west right now, I feel. tl;dr Inoue is awful, Otoya is awful, but the work is very much the product of its context. It is impossible not to engage with that to some degree, but adjacent to all this, there is this theme of motherhood that I keep coming back to, and it stays my hand hand each time I consider going to Inoue's house and burning it down. Why is this reply so long? Guys, I don't even really like this show. |
05-08-2021, 08:11 PM | #75 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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My only true calling in life is complaining about Inoue, and I feel a bit hesitant about venturing my opinion here, because I don't want to be seen as trampling on anyone's feelings, or being in Inoue's corner, nor do I want to be seen as defending Otoya, who is an obnoxious caricature—and yet, unintentional as it may have been, his behaviour is pretty consistent with the show's 1980s setting.
I'm conflicted because I feel that zero consideration was afforded to the idea of how Otoya would appear to anyone not involved in trying to make a weekly TV show out of a toy-line in 2008, and part of why we are having this conversation is because things have changed so very much in the last 10 years or so in the way we are talking about the issues that Otoya is a lightning rod for, but also because... I think I prefer the idea of a main character who is demonstratively awful to the idea of a character who is a blank space, the kind of stock character that producers hope children will imprint on, and draw a connexion between their own fantasies and the power fantasy that the toys embody. I guess I'm thinking about this too much, but also this is the week where I came dangerously close to being cancelled for suggesting that it was possible to read a villain from Sailor Moon as a tragic character in contrast to her archetype in Greek mythology, rather than as just The Source of All Evil, so this is a very 2021 sort of vibe for me. There seems to be an increased need/demand for purity of motive in fiction from audiences lately, and an increasing level of vitriol in regards to characters who don't meet those standards, and, even worse people who like these characters, and it's a very weird time we're having culturally in the west right now, I feel. tl;dr Inoue is awful, Otoya is awful, but the work is very much the product of its context. It is impossible not to engage with that to some degree, but adjacent to all this, there is this theme of motherhood that I keep coming back to, and it stays my hand hand each time I consider going to Inoue's house and burning it down. Why is this reply so long? Guys, I don't even really like this show. Or maybe I'm getting other people's objections all wrong! Either way, sincerely, I'm happy for folks to talk about their objections to Kiva. It enriches the experience for me, and I'd never want someone to feel uncomfortable pushing back on parts they find problematic.
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05-08-2021, 08:30 PM | #76 |
Yodonna oshi
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 748
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I just... I'm all about Death of the Author, about knowing as little about the person behind the work as possible, but it's impossible not to see the values and politics of the time in which a work was made reflected in its telling, I guess, and there is a lot of 2008 in Kiva. That's what I'm trying to say. I don't know, I personally hated 2008. I'll put a pin in this, as I want to come back to talking about Otoya later on. (every one of my paragraphs in this post began with "I". That's awful.) |
05-08-2021, 08:39 PM | #77 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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To your point about Death of the Author... that's nearly always my take. I don't care what Inoue meant, I care what he made. In general, that actually lets me get more out of his work than he probably intended. Like, I've called his work on Faiz "accidentally progressive", because I find it hard to believe he was making a show in 2004 that could be read (and read thoroughly) as being analogous to the struggles a marginalized community has inside of a larger culture. It's there, but I'm not sure he knows it's there. You know? Anyway, hi, yes, Otoya. Definitely going to be a lightning rod for discussion for the next couple months, and I am very much looking forward to folks sharing their thoughts (respectfully!) on Wataru's dad and the specific era/culture he represents. No such thing as a wrong opinion, as long as you can respect opposing views. I am actually excited to see so much debate! Y'all are my favorite type of fans!
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05-08-2021, 09:21 PM | #78 |
Yodonna oshi
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 748
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I'm looking forward to this too! These are the kind of threads that keep me refreshing the forum every day. |
05-08-2021, 10:08 PM | #79 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,527
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Anyway, hi, yes, Otoya. Definitely going to be a lightning rod for discussion for the next couple months, and I am very much looking forward to folks sharing their thoughts (respectfully!) on Wataru's dad and the specific era/culture he represents. No such thing as a wrong opinion, as long as you can respect opposing views.
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05-09-2021, 06:32 AM | #80 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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KAMEN RIDER KIVA EPISODE 03 - “HEROIC: THE PERFECT HUNTER”
This is an episode full of action (Nago!) and drama (that moment when you figure out your parents are human), but, like, Otoya. He’s so exquisitely awful that I honestly can’t hate him. I should, probably. Okay, definitely. He’s grotesque, with his debauchery and dismissiveness. He’s horrible for virtually every single second of this episode. There’s not a single redeeming thing he does in this part of the story. But, like, I was dying. He is so ridiculous that I can’t begrudge him his absence of morality. Everything he gets up to in this episode is so over-the-top, so cartoonish, that it’s hard to find fault. Getting mad at Otoya for fleecing rubes or stealing hearts is like getting mad at the weather. It is doing the thing it was created to do, and any lives that get wrecked in the process… well, we live in an imperfect world. Much like Jean-Ralphio’s predictably deplorable life choices on "Parks and Recreation", Otoya wins me over by being so jaw-droppingly, enthusiastically terrible, that I end up applauding him for it. He is a bad person, and I am a bad person for enjoying it this much. Quote:
Of course, that’s just me, and I ain’t his kid. Getting Wataru involved in a story where he has to accept the reality of his dad’s past (the scene where Wataru, beaming, describes his dad as some pillar among men, was so adorably wrong that it made me root for that kid) is a nicely relatable story. No matter how great your upbringing was, there’s a point in growing up where you have to see your parents as real people with real flaws, and that’s tough. It’s disillusioning, having to accept that someone can be both a good parent and a not-great person. In this one, Wataru isn’t just confronted with the idea of his dad maybe tipping poorly at a restaurant, or cheating at a board game. Wataru is presented with massive binders of his dad’s malfeasance, and gets to hear first-hand accounts of the lives his dad ruined. It is more than disillusioning; it’s completely demoralizing.
And again I want to ask for the contrasting reaction between this and a previous series. Here, you think Wataru facing the reality of his dad's past is relatable and this part has him apologizing to others for Otoya and likely blaming himself for their misfortunes, but before in a series like Blade, you think the idea that something someone's father did without knowledge and prevention gives enormous weight equals to them being unable to function as a person and that you can't relate for "I Must Atone For My Family’s Misdeeds"? That parents aren't extension or reflection of the child and thus is their own people and responsible of their own actions? [QUOTE=Kamen Rider Die;799693]Most of the rest of this one is given over to Megumi’s lack of satisfaction with her job, and that was a blast to watch. Her getting surly at Mal d’Amour (thank you, subtitles, because I could not figure out why Maid’Amour didn’t have a single maid) (also, naming the cafe in the gothic tokusatsu show “Heartbreak”... INOUE FOREVER!) at Wataru and Shizuka was nicely unnecessary, her just taking her frustration out on these two awkward children. Quote:
I really like how adversarial Megumi and Shizuka are? It’s one of my favorite beats, Megumi feeling pleased with herself for dunking on a child and then immediately feeling like a jerk for dunking on a child. Any time so far that this show has put Megumi in the same room as Wataru and/or Shizuka, it’s magic to me. I love that energy! I like how perfect that trinity of Wataru/Megumi/Shizuka is so far. Most of the scene is to set up Otoya’s history with W.A.K.E.U.P.*, the organization that employs Yuri and is trying to stop the Fangires (did not check the wiki), but there’s still enough cuteness and warmth to make the exposition and shifty-eyed This Is A Mystery stuff go down smooth.
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Speaking of smooth! Nago! As comically heroic as Otoya is comically awful, and I love it just as much. He’s a one-man wrecking crew who believes in redemption and donates his half-million dollar bounty to underprivileged youths! I get why Wataru calls him Dad! I want him to be my dad, too! Seeing him take trophies and deliver uplifting threats… I love it. I love this dude being exactly the type of square-jawed hero Inoue would never write in a million years, so I can’t wait to see what the hell is actually going on with him. He’s either going to be horribly murdered, revealed as a monster, or slowly dissolved into a complete joke of a person. I am good with any of those!
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This is one of those things about Kiva that always bugged me and it's an unfortunate side effect of the show's split timeline premise. We almost always see the 1986 and 2008 characters confronting the same Fangires at the same time. It's a neat tie between the events, but it also means that a) we know that Team '86 is going to fail to defeat the monster. Again. And b) the monster was just left free to roam and do whatever it pleased for 22 years.
Now, I do have a theory about why the Fangires may have kept relatively quiet in between the two periods, but it involves stuff that happens much later in the series so I'm going to shelve it for now and forget to come back to it near the end of the show. Quote:
Anyway, uh. Otoya! This guy is the main reason I hate this season. Without him, Kiva... well, it wouldn't work, because he's so deeply baked into the themes and story of the show. But looking beyond him there's not too much in this show I'd say I hate; it's not one that ever works for me and not one I think is very good at storytelling (there'll be some later episodes where I think it's very unclear when the switch between time periods happens, and not in a way that's good artistically), but it's not... like... tuning in every episode to see Otoya being lecherous and creepy and misogynistic and demeaning in a way that would have Urataros and Drake being "hey, mate, bit too much". I can see why people would like him, but to me he crosses the line by a mile into being the most unpleasant character in the world to watch
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