[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepsea

Also there's an idea that the jymato are becoming more alive, and could even begin to be "human" and move beyond simply imitating.

I also think it will happen.

[EpsilonX]

Just got back from Japan and I saw Shin Kamen Rider while I was there. Here are my thoughts.

Disclaimer: There will be some spoilers, but nothing very specific. I'm moreso going to talk about stylistic decisions and such, which some people might not want to know beforehand. Each paragraph will be spoiler tagged separately, with only one of them giving a very brief overview of the story. Still, better safe than sorry.

So first things first, this is a lot more similar to Shin Ultraman than Shin Gojira. Like Ultraman, the story is divided into mini arcs that each focus on a different villain. However, I think it worked a bit better in Shin Kamen Rider, as there is the "fighting against Shocker" plot thread tying everything together. Ultraman, in comparison, felt a bit disjointed. Or, at least, it did to me.

Also like Shin Ultraman, the film pays a lot of homage to the original series, embracing some of the goofier elements. Like how Shin Ultraman kept the Ultraman "zoom in" style transformations, Shin Kamen Rider has a lot of shots of him flipping through the air.

The film also keeps the series' trademark edginess, with bloody fights, grainy footage sprinkled throughout, lots of wide angle shots and fast cuts, and some trademark Evangelion-style Anno-isms shining through. It felt very 2000s to me, and while I've never seen The First or The Next, I can't imagine how they're made any edgier.

Story-wise, I'm still pretty basic in my Japanese, so I didn't understand much of what was going on. From what I could tell, the story was fairly standard Kamen Rider - Hongo escapes Shocker after being turned into a cyborg, and uses his new powers to fight the organization. In this version, however, Hongo is much less at peace with who he has become. If you've seen Evangelion, the way this is portrayed will feel pretty familiar to you. As a fan of that series, I really appreciated this element.

The suit designs were all fantastic. Sadly, the fight scenes were my biggest issue with the film. On the plus side, there were a lot of fights with a nice variety between them. Each fight showed off different techniques and styles. Unforuntately, they were also full of CGI, awkward camera angles, and super quick cuts, which all made it very hard to follow and get invested in. A few of the fights seemed to go overboard with flashiness and CGI, feeling more like I was watching Dragon Ball Z than Kamen Rider. This is just my personal opinion, though - I've seen other reviews that seemed to like the fights.

So yeah, overall I thought it was fine, but I can't help but be disappointed. Of the four Shin films, this one was my least favorite. I think a lot of it is due to the language barrier - since I couldn't understand the story, I missed out on a TON of the movie, and the part that I could understand (the fights) wasn't to my taste. That's not to say it's all bad, though, as it was certainly still enjoyable. It's just not up to the standard set by the incredible Shin Gojira, and it seems like Rurouni Kenshin's influence on live action adaptations is starting to wane. So it was good, it just wasn't as top-tier as I had hoped for. I can't wait to see it again with subtitles, to hopefully enjoy it more.

If anybody has any questions, feel free to ask.

Side note: I saw it at the Toho Cinemas in Kabukichou with the Godzilla head on top of it.

[Sunred]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpsilonX

Just got back from Japan and I saw Shin Kamen Rider while I was there. Here are my thoughts.

With that out the way the big question remains; did you have fun and go broke buying toku stuff.

[EpsilonX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunred

With that out the way the big question remains; did you have fun and go broke buying toku stuff.

Yes.

Go check out what I just posted in the Toys & Collectibles section

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpsilonX

Just got back from Japan and I saw Shin Kamen Rider while I was there. Here are my thoughts.

As for the fights, I think you should watch the First (the Next is very specific), because fights are very good there. Of course, the movie were not without unconvincing CGI, but still the main emphasis was on martial arts and motorcycle stunts.

[EpsilonX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

As for the fights, I think you should watch the First (the Next is very specific), because fights are very good there. Of course, the movie were not without unconvincing CGI, but still the main emphasis was on martial arts and motorcycle stunts.

I've heard mixed things about those movies, but the things generally listed as negatives either sound like things that won't bother me or actually sound interesting (like how The Next is basically a J-horror with Kamen Rider thrown in). Definitely interested in checking them out.

Also, in my jetlaggedness, I thought this was the Kamen Rider what are you watching thread. Whoops

[GoldenXtreme]

I rather like The First and The Next as visual spectacles, they are really stylish. I can barely remember the plots though, just a few bits that made me go "Toshiki Inoue sure is the writer".

[DreadBringer]

Sorry for the late and longpost, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Well, Michinaga is a concrete example of just such blind cynicism. In fact, he and Keiwa are two extremes, which is why even their desires are directly opposite. It is not clear why you then unconditionally believe him in Shiro's characterization.

I don't know if you're agreeing with his views, but my point was that you can ironically acting like Michinaga in this talk for your assumptions and downplays here, including extending to adding some headcanons to make Ace further look terrible. I don't believe Michinaga in Takeshi's characterization, which is why I replied about other Rider's genuineness here, which you're pulling similar thing to Michinaga for other Riders without "noble occupations" like firefighter in Takeshi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Well, I'm on hiatus, so I don't know how often and in what context the rescue of the Sae family is discussed. But I can definitely say that you are wrong. The Ninja buckle could only be obtained by saving another rider, so helping your comrades is fully justified and beneficial in the DGP.

Fair enough, then it'd be not guaranteed benefit unlike civilians, because it's wholly unknown and so far none of the Riders have precognition so it shouldn't reduce the validity. And should a little, likely chance to get benefit from this discourages helping them (who doesn't get reset unlike civilians) for "genuineness"? And they're their rivals, won't letting them die if you can benefit as they'd deal with one less competitor? Damned if you do/don't for cynical views. The shitty part of Ace's Ninja Buckle part was about how he sets up the mission itself by getting another Rider severely injured for that, which'd be more like Morio setting up the attack on civilians to save them and get points, but saving missions can be done without that setting up move, like ep. 21's civilian mission to just, well, save them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Personally, I perceive Neon as an anti-hero. She is capable of both selfless deeds and cruelty. After all, directing Keiva to the mines, Neon definitely could not know that there would not be a bomb in the traps, after which his pieces would be scattered all over the street. That is, Ace couldn't shoot Girori's PunkJack, and even almost Jamato Michinaga didn't kill other riders (again, from what I saw). While Neon could very well have caused Keiva's death and certainly caused his injuries. So everything can be expected from her, especially considering that she won?t win either for plot or moral reasons.

Yeah, she had done bad things in ep. 22, but the part of her directing suspicion to Ace though. But the DezaStar mission cards shouldn't being ignored for leading Keiwa to trap part, they're forced to perform mission cards as the rule in ep. 20 stated, DezaStars aren't free from terms and conditions, thus it's not that easy winning as DezaStar as thought - I think actually the easiest way is to never perform any griefing at all to other players, but ofc, the mission cards give more challenge to actually perform the job while still not being noticed. To keep holding principles while performing the missions, she can fulfill the forced missions by doing the bare minimum to technically fulfill it, to be limited on hindering fellow Riders to an extent, like throwing the bomb only once to hit Riders but not cause much injuries to them.

And the Riders aren't as fragile as normal humans like you think of how being caught in a trap would get them instantly killed. Traps itself also don't necessarily mean insta-death and can only mean to hinder their chance to win the round. And even for the worst case scenario of it probably killing she can jump in to save him (not negating the DezaStar missions but a counter against the view of her would be willing to let others die you suggested). People like Keiwa has no obligation to grief like that, but at least he'd vote out other Riders as it's forced for all Riders, he doesn't like, vote himself. In that position though he won't like it he might be willing to perform the missions in bare minimum way and act if things go south.

But anyway, it'd be actually not anti-heroic (as them overall, but only briefly for her) when someone does bad things only when forced into extremely difficult situations, and ends up regretting it, while under most circumstances tries to not do bad things or minimize it. It's important to look at the character as a whole of their good deeds vs their bad deeds (and then factoring in WHY they did bad things); like there's a difference between someone who consistently kill anyone 'bad' in cold-blood, and someone who disagree on killing bad ones but at one point is forced to do it due to the situation, while not liking it and regretful. It's context that really weighs the scale in either direction. Losing her wish permanently (+DGP memory wipe) would make her stuck living like what's seen after her elimination forever, otherwise she tries to be upright as she could, and when she have to resort to underhanded means she'd still feel bad about it. Not only cherry-picking certain actions for both good/bad sides; as in treating only paragons as straight heroes and only people as horrible as Isaac or Beroba evil/villains, and lump everything else together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Disagree. There is a difference between giving a couple of thousand from your account to charity and getting another person out of a burning house. And the first cannot be called heroism. This is no doubt a good deed, especially if done from the heart, but there is no heroism in it. Heroism does not require suffering, but it does require risk. For this is what distinguishes a hero from just a good person.

For superpowered beings, doing the "getting another person out of a burning house" will also put no risk on them anyway, like how they themselves would be invulnerable to the fire, but the normal people on those house won't and thus they're doing good by helping others who don't have similar luxury to them in the same situation.

I know courage and determination (which'd be why risk is often elevated) is often the traits used by people to talk about heroism, but I personally won't follow that. Because risk (w/ courage and determination) can be used by super persistent villains by plowing through any odds, enduring/resisting any fatal punishments without taking any breaks for dedicated pursuit of their goal sonce they set their mind to it (and on some occassions they got glorified as heroes for this trait). The difference of "refusing to stop at anything thrown at them" for the heroes is that it's done for good deeds, which I'd conclude this means heroes are good guys - as in how they're broadly defined - but to me the specific definition would be someone that has positive qualities and consistently do good deeds. Consistency is important as, villains doing a single good act, even self-sacrificial one, won't put them on the same place as heroes in morality - looking on the character as a whole.

About only counting the risky ones, this can be why something like beating up bad guys is so elevated as this is done by fighting superpowered villains that'd put their lives at risk, but this'd sound like the view where heroism is limited to fighting (or similar big ones), when the world is full of people who need healing, care, love, compassion and help outside of monster fighting stuff - I'd value how much and extensive they care for. This'd be why I value the parts like charity (of which both it and saving lives can be done together) because it shows how they care more than just keeping people alive but also improving their lives, other than how the risky part also shows they care enough to put themselves at that situation for other's sake; I'd place as high regard on Yuusuke's child consoling as much as Grongi fighting. Thus I'd encourage the display of many morally good trait and deeds in addition to risky ones for heroism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

Yeah. The approach the show took of focusing more on Keiwa and Neon is interesting, but it does leave us with a more distant understanding of our actual title character.

I personally would disagree with those 2 getting more focus, or at least recently/so far. The bigger focus seems to go on Ace's mysteries and also how Michinaga deals with Jamato faction (this happens since Divergence arc too). Those 2... doesn't even get further upgrades like the other 2 (yeah the Jamato Buckle for Michinaga) which gets them tossed around more recently.

[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I personally would disagree with those 2 getting more focus, or at least recently/so far. The bigger focus seems to go on Ace's mysteries and also how Michinaga deals with Jamato faction (this happens since Divergence arc too). Those 2... doesn't even get further upgrades like the other 2 (yeah the Jamato Buckle for Michinaga) which gets them tossed around more recently.

I wasn't clear there, sorry. I meant at the beginning of the series specifically, when Keiwa and Neon were getting more story scenes and Ace was just this other dude who was there. Ace has gotten a lot more narrative focus since then, but the structure of the opening episodes still makes him feel less developed than those two.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I don't know if you're agreeing with his views, but my point was that you can ironically acting like Michinaga in this talk for your assumptions and downplays here, including extending to adding some headcanons to make Ace further look terrible. I don't believe Michinaga in Takeshi's characterization, which is why I replied about other Rider's genuineness here, which you're pulling similar thing to Michinaga for other Riders without "noble occupations" like firefighter in Takeshi.

No, I do not share Michinaga's position. For me, he is an extremely blinkered character who sees nothing but his goal and does everything only for her. My position in relation to Ace is as simple as possible: I do not believe him, because he is a deceiver. It's like the rules set by the show, and repeated several times. Therefore, I will make a final opinion about it only after the final, and that is not a fact. In the meantime, it is quite logical to expect a catch and think through possible options.

Quote:

Fair enough, then it'd be not guaranteed benefit unlike civilians, because it's wholly unknown and so far none of the Riders have precognition so it shouldn't reduce the validity. And should a little, likely chance to get benefit from this discourages helping them (who doesn't get reset unlike civilians) for "genuineness"? And they're their rivals, won't letting them die if you can benefit as they'd deal with one less competitor? Damned if you do/don't for cynical views. The shitty part of Ace's Ninja Buckle part was about how he sets up the mission itself by getting another Rider severely injured for that, which'd be more like Morio setting up the attack on civilians to save them and get points, but saving missions can be done without that setting up move, like ep. 21's civilian mission to just, well, save them.

Is there really a difference between rescuing civilians and other riders? Because buckles are not always given for civilians, and there were no indications that points would not be awarded for helping a rider. For an attack they are definitely selected, and the refusal to help in a dangerous situation is punishable by law. Maybe DGP is that strict too?
Plus, do not forget about the psychological part of the issue. Guilt over someone's death, even indirectly, is an ordeal for anyone who is not Asakura. I am sure that even the villain and criminal Morio would only be able to kill a person in the most extreme situation. Actually, that's why he didn't even try to resort to this path in the card mission. And given that death for the horseman is final, it is not surprising that most do not want to take on this responsibility.

Quote:

Yeah, she had done bad things in ep. 22, but the part of her directing suspicion to Ace though. But the DezaStar mission cards shouldn't being ignored for leading Keiwa to trap part, they're forced to perform mission cards as the rule in ep. 20 stated, DezaStars aren't free from terms and conditions, thus it's not that easy winning as DezaStar as thought - I think actually the easiest way is to never perform any griefing at all to other players, but ofc, the mission cards give more challenge to actually perform the job while still not being noticed. To keep holding principles while performing the missions, she can fulfill the forced missions by doing the bare minimum to technically fulfill it, to be limited on hindering fellow Riders to an extent, like throwing the bomb only once to hit Riders but not cause much injuries to them.

And the Riders aren't as fragile as normal humans like you think of how being caught in a trap would get them instantly killed. Traps itself also don't necessarily mean insta-death and can only mean to hinder their chance to win the round. And even for the worst case scenario of it probably killing she can jump in to save him (not negating the DezaStar missions but a counter against the view of her would be willing to let others die you suggested). People like Keiwa has no obligation to grief like that, but at least he'd vote out other Riders as it's forced for all Riders, he doesn't like, vote himself. In that position though he won't like it he might be willing to perform the missions in bare minimum way and act if things go south.

But anyway, it'd be actually not anti-heroic (as them overall, but only briefly for her) when someone does bad things only when forced into extremely difficult situations, and ends up regretting it, while under most circumstances tries to not do bad things or minimize it. It's important to look at the character as a whole of their good deeds vs their bad deeds (and then factoring in WHY they did bad things); like there's a difference between someone who consistently kill anyone 'bad' in cold-blood, and someone who disagree on killing bad ones but at one point is forced to do it due to the situation, while not liking it and regretful. It's context that really weighs the scale in either direction. Losing her wish permanently (+DGP memory wipe) would make her stuck living like what's seen after her elimination forever, otherwise she tries to be upright as she could, and when she have to resort to underhanded means she'd still feel bad about it. Not only cherry-picking certain actions for both good/bad sides; as in treating only paragons as straight heroes and only people as horrible as Isaac or Beroba evil/villains, and lump everything else together.

For me, a character capable of both good and bad is an antihero. As for the vulnerability of riders... How could Neon know how reliable Keiwa's armor was and how powerful Chirami's bombs were? She saw an opportunity to complete the mission and took the risk. Moreover, Neon herself chose this path, accepting a possible fatal outcome (or not thinking about it, but this does not justify the act as a whole). Translated to a more realistic situation, it would be the same as if she directed Keiwa in the dark to a ravine without warning about it. He can get away with a bruise, or break his arm, or twist his neck. That in this fictional situation, that in the case of traps, Neon does not have the data to predict the outcome. And that's what makes her deceit worse and more dangerous than Ace with the Ninja Buckle. Because the Geats were in control. Moreover, he needed Keiwa to survive, otherwise he would not have received the desired buckle. And Neon risked someone else's life. Perhaps hoping that Keiwa would suffer enough to be expelled and then she would be the winner.
What I agree with is that through memory loss and personality change if Neon loses in a no-win situation. In principle, like all riders, but for her and Keiwa, this is perhaps the most tragic. But there is an obvious way out: ask Ace after the victory to return her memory by touching the ID-Core. That way she wouldn't lose herself and free herself from the shackles of the DGP. And unlike Keiva, her desire is quite feasible without the help of supernatural forces, she just needs to move out from her parents and start dating. At the same time, it would show that Ace values ​​friendship. I would still look for hidden motives from him, but a plus in karma. And I understand that this is a show and Na-Go, as one of the main riders, will be at least until the final, but option is still workable.

Quote:

For superpowered beings, doing the "getting another person out of a burning house" will also put no risk on them anyway, like how they themselves would be invulnerable to the fire, but the normal people on those house won't and thus they're doing good by helping others who don't have similar luxury to them in the same situation.

I know courage and determination (which'd be why risk is often elevated) is often the traits used by people to talk about heroism, but I personally won't follow that. Because risk (w/ courage and determination) can be used by super persistent villains by plowing through any odds, enduring/resisting any fatal punishments without taking any breaks for dedicated pursuit of their goal sonce they set their mind to it (and on some occassions they got glorified as heroes for this trait). The difference of "refusing to stop at anything thrown at them" for the heroes is that it's done for good deeds, which I'd conclude this means heroes are good guys - as in how they're broadly defined - but to me the specific definition would be someone that has positive qualities and consistently do good deeds. Consistency is important as, villains doing a single good act, even self-sacrificial one, won't put them on the same place as heroes in morality - looking on the character as a whole.

About only counting the risky ones, this can be why something like beating up bad guys is so elevated as this is done by fighting superpowered villains that'd put their lives at risk, but this'd sound like the view where heroism is limited to fighting (or similar big ones), when the world is full of people who need healing, care, love, compassion and help outside of monster fighting stuff - I'd value how much and extensive they care for. This'd be why I value the parts like charity (of which both it and saving lives can be done together) because it shows how they care more than just keeping people alive but also improving their lives, other than how the risky part also shows they care enough to put themselves at that situation for other's sake; I'd place as high regard on Yuusuke's child consoling as much as Grongi fighting. Thus I'd encourage the display of many morally good trait and deeds in addition to risky ones for heroism.

Yes, when people from a burning house are saved by an invulnerable Superman, this is not heroism, but simply a good deed on his part. But the saved, of course, will be grateful to him. The same goes for charity. A millionaire can feed a lot of people, but heroism is when feeding another you yourself remain hungry. Actually, that's why almost all astronauts, even not famous ones, are honored, unlike the guys who remotely control the rovers. Which by no means makes their work less necessary or important, and it will also receive recognition, just a different, more professional and less pompous level. Because it's not heroism.

Quote:

I personally would disagree with those 2 getting more focus, or at least recently/so far. The bigger focus seems to go on Ace's mysteries and also how Michinaga deals with Jamato faction (this happens since Divergence arc too). Those 2... doesn't even get further upgrades like the other 2 (yeah the Jamato Buckle for Michinaga) which gets them tossed around more recently.

As for me, there is no specific main character in this show. Rather, it's a show about the band or even DGP in general. I remember that at the beginning, Keiva was called the true main character, but at the same time in the episode about the Sai family, he has five sentences of text, two of which are: "Henshin!"