[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Guess this is why I bring this up to you, in an OOO thread, albeit you claim you'd acknowledge the other two's flaws too (I'm only on the fence about Fourze regarding this). But dunno about acknowledging flaws and listening to fair complaints part, which I struggle with as well, that you must agree on said complaints without debating (perhaps like those liking less received shows by just acknowledging said show as flawed and that it's their guilty pleasure), and that if one explains or defends about a complaint if one feels they catch something that needs to be explained to said people, it means you're not listening and dismissing them.

No, not without debating. Debating is the important part! If a complaint cannot stand up to challenge, then it will fall apart, so I will confront and debate to get closer to the truth of the argument, no matter which way that may lead. No such thing as a credible point that hasn't been challenged first. Another important part is that even if I acknowledge a flaw, it doesn't necessarily diminish my own enjoyment. Subjective experience is unique for each person after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER OOO EPISODE 42 - ?ICE, BECOMING A GREEED, AND THE BROKEN WINGS?

It?s recontextualizing that image of a hand reaching out, into hands reaching for each other. Eiji fights for Hina, and Hina fights for Eiji. Eiji is pulled back from the brink while he?s lifting up others. It?s the concept of desire as a reciprocal machine, adding life and vibrancy to a world, rather than deducting it through hunger. It?s about protecting everyone, even those who?d protect us. Heroism can as big as saving the world, and as small as keeping one person safe. Everything?s heroic.

That's right, heroism isn't about selflessness or selfishness, it's just about protecting people's happiness. Eiji is a hero for everybody else, but who will be a hero for Eiji? There's Ankh, but he's so focused on his own personal problems that he's unreliable. So it's good that Hina cares about Eiji and pushes him to put himself first more. She's the bridge between them that makes their toxic friendship a little healthier. But she's also in a place where Eiji and Ankh have mostly made up their minds, so she can do little but watch sadly as they walk further towards ruin with self-destructive actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

That character's look is too iconic! There was no way they'd make Ankh a suit monster or a floating hand. Ankh knows that that face pays the bills!

As a certain cafe master once said: "What kind of villain could be as stylish as me?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

The one with a gratuitous flashback to the creation of the Core Medals, which leaves me with one question: If they were created by a European monarch, why are the announcements in Japanese and English, rather than, I don?t know, German and French?

Technically, English is also a European language. Anyway, King was clearly an eccentric like his cake-loving descendant, so it seems futile to question his methods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodSpeedLove

I will say, I may be in the minority here, but this is probably my favorite group of villains in Rider because of how poorly they work together. I really am not a fan of most of the villains in Rider, I feel like every episode is taken up by at least ONE scene of the league of villains talking vaguely in a room about some vague plan that inevitably is just "let's send a monster of the week". I find it incredibly boring, and I never end up caring about any of the villains! At least here they've got their own personalities and interests, albeit a bit repetitive. Anyone else feel the same way? Maybe Rider's heroes are just so lovable any non main characters pale in comparison...

I mean, not for this example, as I find the non-Ankh Greeeds to be mostly unsympathetic. But I generally prefer villains who feel like actual people with personal goals and motivations, instead of like, Unidentified Lifeforms from Kuuga. A big part of Faiz's appeal for me is how Orphenochs are people first, which allows the narrative to explore the meaning of humanity, in the opposite way that Ryuki explored the concept of Kamen Riders who are monsters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Symbolizing this, it'd also be visually incoherent too, since the undersuit for PuToTyra is uniquely silver, bright enough to border on looking white depending on the lighting, which would of course be the exact opposite of the black that ties every other OOO form together.

Wait, the undersuit is silver?! Is there like some kind of Detail Of Heroes thing that shows this clearly? Is it the same shade of silver as Build Genius?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I just really love PuToTyra and the Purple Medals in general, by the way? There's plenty more good stuff to say just about the suit, of course (using the winged Ptera as the head to keep some continuity with TaToBa's hawk face, as just one more example), but more than that, I really like how their introduction turns the entire narrative in such a massive way for both the heroes and the villains alike, while placing a particular focus on Eiji as an individual. I think in that sense especially, PuToTyra really puts the final in final form, because its mere existence sort of seems to *urge* the whole story towards its conclusion in a way I find super neat.

Yeah, other than being one of the coolest Final Forms both aesthetically and functionally, I appreciate how Putotyra's introduction totally changes the status quo for the remainder of the show and how the absence of desire makes it a power unique to Eiji, in contrast to the tyrant King.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

2) Toei reusing the big chunk of city flipping over effect in the Ex-Aid/Build team-up (which I want to say is the one that also featured OOO and Fourze).

I don't remember that, but I definitely remember it in Ghost Episode 4!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

but given Eiji?s fear of snakes, which briefly comes up here, there?s the perfect explanation as to why BuraKaWani never appears again.

That didn't stop Batman.

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I obviously can't list all examples, but though this might not be serious, you do object to Fish celebrating those who hurt themselves for the sake of good. Otherwise, an example (in this website) of what's said as hypothetical here is this:

Oh, I remember this quote. I think it was from a Geats thread?

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

As a certain cafe master once said: "What kind of villain could be as stylish as me?"

I'm racking my brain to think of another actor's look in Kamen Rider that is as iconic as Ankh's, and I just can't name one. There are plenty of memorable outfits and hairstyles (Gentarou's recent cameo brings him to mind), but Ankh's hairstyle/red pants/one-sleeve/monster hand design is an all-time look.

[GodSpeedLove]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I mean, not for this example, as I find the non-Ankh Greeeds to be mostly unsympathetic. But I generally prefer villains who feel like actual people with personal goals and motivations, instead of like, Unidentified Lifeforms from Kuuga. A big part of Faiz's appeal for me is how Orphenochs are people first, which allows the narrative to explore the meaning of humanity, in the opposite way that Ryuki explored the concept of Kamen Riders who are monsters.

Although I don't think the Greeed are sympathetic, they are certainly much more entertaining than the UI from Kuuga, like you said. And I also love Faiz for this! I think Ryuki and Faiz make a really great spiritual duology, as Ryuki is about what it means to be a Kamen Rider and Faiz is about what it means to be a monster. It's some really great stuff!

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER OOO EPISODE 46 - “GREEED EIJI, DOUBLE BIRTHS, AND ANKH’S DESIRE”



So, let’s dispense with the Double Births part first, because it mostly exists in this episode as a thing the main plot can cut away to, in order better control the tension. The subplot here could’ve been Cous Coussier’s diminished staffing for an Italian Night menu (who will wear the Leaning Tower costume?!), or Kougami’s attempts at birthday cupcakes (he just starts crying uncontrollably), but instead, it’s the triumphant if strangely underplayed return of Date Akira.

Always a delight to see him, and I certainly feel an amount of pride at him supporting the Chicago Bears upon his heroic entrance. (The 2010 season was a pretty good one! 11-5, with a trip to the NFC Championship game! We definitely don’t need to talk about who the Bears lost to that kept them from going to the Super Bowl!) While I don’t want to downplay how good it feels to have Date show up in the nick of time to give Gotou a hand in defeating Gamel, it’s such a second place plot in this episode that I kind of can’t muster up more than a Welcome Back, before immediately thinking about other things.

Things like Ankh and Eiji.

This show’s yearlong focus on their complex relationship continues to captivate in its endgame, where the vague machinations of Maki’s insanity and the other Greeed’s dwindling numbers feel like minor details of some previous storyline compared to the massive weight and significance of the Eiji/Ankh conflict. There’s for sure clear and compelling stakes – The End Of The World, for one prominent and oft-referenced example – but those things are academic and barely hold attention, when there’s all of the emotional stuff between Ankh and Eiji coming to the surface.

Just like last time, it’s the Ankh portion that feels the most heartbreaking and frustrating. After episodes of dancing around the main point of contention for his friends, Ankh flat out asks Hina to let him keep Shingo’s body. It’s easily the most vulnerable Ankh’s ever been, and that vulnerability makes it even harder for Hina to tell him no. She has to, obviously – giving Shingo’s body over to Ankh is consigning Shingo to death. But telling Ankh no is also consigning Ankh to, at best, a shadow of a dream of an existence. It’s telling Ankh he doesn’t deserve the life he’s stumbled upon, because someone else deserves it more. Hina has a chance to save Ankh, to end the battle that’s destroying Eiji, but she can’t do it at the cost of her brother. The impossible position she’s put in is one of the best story decisions this show has ever made. Where another series would keep things laser-focused on Eiji and Ankh, this smarter, better show opens things up to let Hina face the same grueling, despairing decisions that the boys are facing. She’s in this, too, and the show never lets you forget it.

The Eiji side of things is great, if a little less grandiose and emotional for its continued inability to get Eiji out of the self-destructive rut the show has been highlighting over the last few episodes. But if it's (slightly) lesser than Ankh's story, it's still thrilling and touching in its own right. Having Eiji thank Ankh, mid-battle, for giving him a year to help people as Kamen Rider OOO is one of the best Eiji moments in a series replete with exceptional moments for that character. Even as Eiji is trying to save the world from the Greeed, even as he’s in a brawl with Ankh to regain the OOO Driver he needs to end Gamel’s rampage, he still empathizes with Ankh’s desperation to live. Having Eiji struggle with his Greeed identity in alternating scenes with Ankh’s acceptance of his need to live like the common people do, it’s another super smart thing this show does. The obvious symbolism is the Greeed arms they both share; the fun thematic stuff is in their criss-crossing levels of humanity.

(Speaking of symbols: boy, super big fan of how the show makes the Medal Holder such a prominent part of Ankh’s story here. The fact that it’s a gift that Hina made for Ankh – a thing someone gave him – is so smart in how it allows the narrative to loop Hina back in on all of this. Also, I love that in the beginning of the scene that establishes how much everyone has meant to Ankh in an attempt to evoke the audience’s sympathy, Ankh still leaves the fridge door open after getting his ice cream, because he was only thinking of himself. Some things will never change!!!)

I loved this episode. It’s a Feelings Fight on the beach, where Ankh’s refusal to surrender his existence runs up against Eiji’s inability to value his own. The way these two characters’ stories keep rhyming and commenting on each other as the series winds down… gosh, it’s really the best.

[Sunred]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I'm racking my brain to think of another actor's look in Kamen Rider that is as iconic as Ankh's, and I just can't name one. There are plenty of memorable outfits and hairstyles (Gentarou's recent cameo brings him to mind), but Ankh's hairstyle/red pants/one-sleeve/monster hand design is an all-time look.

Can't complain, though other characters with possible iconic looks within Kamen Rider I suppose are Takashi Hagino as the snakeskin-clad Asakura in Ryuki and Hidenori Tokuyama Yaguruma aka when he goes full-on bowl noodle fanatic edge lord as Kickhopper. Quite memorable in my opinion, whether they are considered fashionable or not. And then there's Tendo in his samue(pronounced sah-moo-eh) whenever he is getting tofu.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunred

Can't complain, though other characters with possible iconic looks within Kamen Rider I suppose are Takashi Hagino as the snakeskin-clad Asakura in Ryuki and Hidenori Tokuyama Yaguruma aka when he goes full-on bowl noodle fanatic edge lord as Kickhopper. Quite memorable in my opinion, whether they are considered fashionable or not. And then there's Tendo in his samue(pronounced sah-moo-eh) whenever he is getting tofu.

Oh, sure, plenty of memorable silhouettes and costumes -- Sento's mismatched sneakers, all the Team Baron outfits, Touma's whole Middle-Aged Mom On A European Vacation vibe -- but Ankh's aesthetic is completely locked-in at an impossibly high level.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER OOO EPISODE 46 - “GREEED EIJI, DOUBLE BIRTHS, AND ANKH’S DESIRE”

This show’s yearlong focus on their complex relationship continues to captivate in its endgame, where the vague machinations of Maki’s insanity and the other Greeed’s dwindling numbers feel like minor details of some previous storyline compared to the massive weight and significance of the Eiji/Ankh conflict. There’s for sure clear and compelling stakes – The End Of The World, for one prominent and oft-referenced example – but those things are academic and barely hold attention, when there’s all of the emotional stuff between Ankh and Eiji coming to the surface.

About Maki being said as going insane here, I don't know if this is something recent for you, as even back then when you thought Kazari was smart about working with Maki and getting ahead compared to the other Greeeds, I already knew/guessed that working with Maki would be a bad idea, of which Kazari's demise was in Maki's hands, because Maki's irredeemable monster who has no positive traits and evil vs evil can happen. And here too, Maki was attempting to throw Gamel under the bus. And Date never realized that the only reason they beat full-powered Gamel was because Maki already damaged his Cores. I wished that Date would be informed that the Greeeds now have obtained their full power. One thing is also that, Date learns about the benefits of self-sacrifice, something he objected about Eiji before, to agree with Goto's suicide tactics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Just like last time, it’s the Ankh portion that feels the most heartbreaking and frustrating. After episodes of dancing around the main point of contention for his friends, Ankh flat out asks Hina to let him keep Shingo’s body. It’s easily the most vulnerable Ankh’s ever been, and that vulnerability makes it even harder for Hina to tell him no. She has to, obviously – giving Shingo’s body over to Ankh is consigning Shingo to death. But telling Ankh no is also consigning Ankh to, at best, a shadow of a dream of an existence. It’s telling Ankh he doesn’t deserve the life he’s stumbled upon, because someone else deserves it more. Hina has a chance to save Ankh, to end the battle that’s destroying Eiji, but she can’t do it at the cost of her brother. The impossible position she’s put in is one of the best story decisions this show has ever made. Where another series would keep things laser-focused on Eiji and Ankh, this smarter, better show opens things up to let Hina face the same grueling, despairing decisions that the boys are facing. She’s in this, too, and the show never lets you forget it.

Maybe those "lesser" shows would also often have companions, like Hina here, who display sadness over the bad things that happen in their circle. Because other people (depending on the people or the shows), or perhaps you, would dismiss that, doesn't mean that this thing about the companion facing the same grueling things doesn't happen. Like if the character isn't for them, or if they aren't impactful enough for them (I don't know if they're objectively bad, though yeah there are types who would be generally disliked by fandom), yeah people may not care at all about what's going on for them, but doesn't mean that it's not done. Otherwise, Hina gets her answer on what Ankh really wants, when reasoning with him in ep. 44 before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The Eiji side of things is great, if a little less grandiose and emotional for its continued inability to get Eiji out of the self-destructive rut the show has been highlighting over the last few episodes. But if it's (slightly) lesser than Ankh's story, it's still thrilling and touching in its own right. Having Eiji thank Ankh, mid-battle, for giving him a year to help people as Kamen Rider OOO is one of the best Eiji moments in a series replete with exceptional moments for that character. Even as Eiji is trying to save the world from the Greeed, even as he’s in a brawl with Ankh to regain the OOO Driver he needs to end Gamel’s rampage, he still empathizes with Ankh’s desperation to live. Having Eiji struggle with his Greeed identity in alternating scenes with Ankh’s acceptance of his need to live like the common people do, it’s another super smart thing this show does. The obvious symbolism is the Greeed arms they both share; the fun thematic stuff is in their criss-crossing levels of humanity.

Guess it does get brought up, not to Ankh though, when Eiji talked with Kitamura (the creepy possessive school friend), about why he needs Ankh. Otherwise, Eiji still ends up becoming a Greeed, despite now Eiji has declared his true desire, wanting power to protect others. Though this is my first time watching OOO, and that I've read elsewhere that it's said that Eiji finally found his true desire of wanting power to protect others, it still doesn't count as one to nullify the Greeed effects on Eiji eh? And guess just like the other Greeeds, Ankh's Shingo body is his human disguise like what the likes of Uva, Gamel, etc. used, with Ankh being able to access the previously Lost Ankh body now, to fight the Greeed Eiji, after previously fighting in both human forms with one monster arm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

No, not without debating. Debating is the important part! If a complaint cannot stand up to challenge, then it will fall apart, so I will confront and debate to get closer to the truth of the argument, no matter which way that may lead. No such thing as a credible point that hasn't been challenged first. Another important part is that even if I acknowledge a flaw, it doesn't necessarily diminish my own enjoyment. Subjective experience is unique for each person after all.

By this, I don't know how to differentiate between the complaint actually still being able to stand up to said debate or challenge, or if one is just being a contrarian, too stubborn to accept loss, too biased to be objective, just wanting to win the debate, grasping on straws to fight the losing battles with those defenses. Obviously, the latter means anything coming from that person's mouth is just invalid, and often the solution others give is just to never engage in debates or just leave things be, practicing the art of not giving a fuck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I mean, not for this example, as I find the non-Ankh Greeeds to be mostly unsympathetic. But I generally prefer villains who feel like actual people with personal goals and motivations, instead of like, Unidentified Lifeforms from Kuuga. A big part of Faiz's appeal for me is how Orphenochs are people first, which allows the narrative to explore the meaning of humanity, in the opposite way that Ryuki explored the concept of Kamen Riders who are monsters.

So it doesn't take something like the Stomachs from Gavv who already have massive bodycounts including the main Riders' loved ones (of which the fandom generally seems to agree that they're the worst people ever, even more than Banno) to be unsympathetic to you. I thought, except for perhaps Kazari, the Greeeds, other than Maki, are the type who people won't feel that they crossed the lines too much to be beyond redemption or adding sympathetic traits (without those feeling offensive to them). Their villainy are rather like the type such as Jabel or the Dark Sisters, the type whose redemption wouldn't be complained about by the fanbase - with also like what you said above about being someone's hero, the likes of Mezool and Gamel can seem to fit as the heroes for the group, with Gamel being the hero to Mezool (something that people can use to justify a villain as just a good guy in another perspective). Being unsympathetic for many people can be those who they feel are too evil to get one, but I guess for you it can be also about being generic doomsday type.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Oh, I remember this quote. I think it was from a Geats thread?

Nah, it was from Controversial Rider opinions thread, of which, yeah, the one on the quote was what you said. I'm obviously using that to prove to Die about what I'm talking about. And yeah, what we think about not glorifying sacrifice would be the minority, with OOO being something that mostly vilifying desire as obviously what the fanbase supports.