[FreshToku]

I'm somewhat certain I had orange juice while watching Gaim once.

[Matrixbeast]

Subbed shows are one of the only things I actually snack while watching.
I have poor hearing (Not like, near deaf or anything. Just bad hearing xD), and the sound of chewing (Especially crunchy things) don't help. So when I only need to focus on the images on screen, rather than the specific sound cues, I don't have to worry about it.

[Deepsea]

So I'm sitting here thinking about the themes of Kamen Rider and how despite not seeing a lot of it, they've influenced me.

Particularly I'm looking at things like, what makes us human, the value of human lives over ideals, and environmentalism. To that I'm adding "who changes the world singular heroes or groups of people who realize that they have the power not individuals, because that's important to me.

Mixing these all together I'm getting ideas about a Kamen Rider who has their humanity reassured by an organizer who has just helped them defeat the evil shadow organization, and their puppet government, by pointing out that our actions make us human, and that being willing to die to protect the life of others because you have more power then them is a very human thing.

I don't fully know, I feel like there's a half baked idea here, but I'm not fully sure where it's going.

I guess part of it is, Ishinimori posited that a Kamen Rider walks a lonely path against evil, but I don't agree with that. I think in all of us is a hero who can fight evil given the right tools, hence why it's so important to organize.

Again not sure if this is anything, but I just needed to get some feedback on these thoughts.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepsea

I guess part of it is, Ishinimori posited that a Kamen Rider walks a lonely path against evil, but I don't agree with that. I think in all of us is a hero who can fight evil given the right tools, hence why it's so important to organize.

Yeah, boy, I don't know if Lonely Path is what I get out of modern Kamen Rider. Coming in through Ex-Aid, and spending a lot of time in the Phase 2 Heisei stuff, one of the big themes I got out of it was Consensus Matters. Like, every time a Rider decides to ignore the wishes of the group, to go out and do what they think is right, they're inevitably punished by the story. Iconoclasm is irresponsible, deference to the group is responsible.

It's actually one of the things that really intrigued me about Kamen Rider at first. So much American superhero storytelling is about rugged individualism, or personal exceptionalism, so a show that was about how we need to work together to decide what the right course of action is, I thought that was really refreshing.

[Kurona]

I feel a lot of modern Rider tends to go with the main Rider or a secondary Rider feeling like he's alone; and then the message is that he's not alone and never will be. How subtle and how dramatic that is varies from series to series; but I definitely feel it with Build and OOO.

[Deepsea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Yeah, boy, I don't know if Lonely Path is what I get out of modern Kamen Rider. Coming in through Ex-Aid, and spending a lot of time in the Phase 2 Heisei stuff, one of the big themes I got out of it was Consensus Matters. Like, every time a Rider decides to ignore the wishes of the group, to go out and do what they think is right, they're inevitably punished by the story. Iconoclasm is irresponsible, deference to the group is responsible.

It's actually one of the things that really intrigued me about Kamen Rider at first. So much American superhero storytelling is about rugged individualism, or personal exceptionalism, so a show that was about how we need to work together to decide what the right course of action is, I thought that was really refreshing.

Yeah that is very much something I forgot about. A lot of Modern Rider is about people with different ideals coming together to solve problems. It's about like the meeting of ideals, because letting one voice dominate (though admittedly one voice does dominate because there's a main character) leads to stagnation.

Hmmmmm *thinks even more*

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepsea

A lot of Modern Rider is about people with different ideals coming together to solve problems. It's about like the meeting of ideals, because letting one voice dominate (though admittedly one voice does dominate because there's a main character) leads to stagnation.

Yes, and don't forget also that Old Rider was about people standing up to giant organizations led by a singular voice seeking domination over the entirety of humanity. Like, literally in some of those cases the new organizations turned out to be led by the same one voice as the previous ones.

I guess this is aimed equally at both people who think the Showa Era is some wildly different thing as well as people who think modern shows have lost their identity: there's a lot more connective tissue left than might be apparent. The ways these concepts are expressed have changed a lot, for sure, but a lot of the ideas themselves have gone largely unaltered, even into shows as recent as Zero-One.

[Kurona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Yes, and don't forget also that Old Rider was about people standing up to giant organizations led by a singular voice seeking domination over the entirety of humanity. Like, literally in some of those cases the new organizations turned out to be led by the same one voice as the previous ones.

I guess this is aimed equally at both people who think the Showa Era is some wildly different thing as well as people who think modern shows have lost their identity: there's a lot more connective tissue left than might be apparent. The ways these concepts are expressed have changed a lot, for sure, but a lot of the ideas themselves have gone largely unaltered, even into shows as recent as Zero-One.

I should clarify that like... I'm saying 'modern rider' as opposed to Rider in general not because I think Showa Rider doesn't have those aspects, but because the only one I've seen is Amazon. And I guess Shin, ZO and J but obviously that's fitting into a completely different timescale.

I can't effectively comment on Showa! I can only go by hearsay, and I fully believe what you're saying; but without my own impression I don't feel confident in speaking for them.

[Fish Sandwich]

Admittedly, I'm not like, intimately familiar with them either (Amazon was the only one I'd seen in full until just earlier this year), so maybe I just have undue confidence in speaking for them, but a lot of this stuff was kind of baked right into the premise, from everything I know.

And heck, Amazon? That guy was making friends everywhere he went decades before Gentarou was! One of his best ones was literally just one of the random monsters of the week who ended up being pretty chill. Is that "lonely"? I don't think so, and while Amazon had difficulties communicating that isolated him from humanity a lot of the time, the same way being cyborgs would for other Riders, they all had allies, you know?

I think there's an argument to be had about what the concept of the "Lonely Kamen Rider" really meant. To me, it always simply represented the sorrow of them as tragic heroes (which is also why Rider 1's mask is crying, and why that design element reoccurs so much), and nothing more. You can be surrounded by others and still feel alone.

It's always seemed to me what defined Riders as heroes was their refusal to give up their human hearts, even when their bodies are altered, and being able to live in harmony with others, and get along, and basically everything Ghost was about (!), I think that always kind of walked hand in hand with the whole nature angle, even if it wasn't always emphasized as much.

[Kurona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

And heck, Amazon? That guy was making friends everywhere he went decades before Gentarou was! One of his best ones was literally just one of the random monsters of the week who ended up being pretty chill. Is that "lonely"? I don't think so, and while Amazon had difficulties communicating that isolated him from humanity a lot of the time, the same way being cyborgs would for other Riders, they all had allies, you know?

I loved Amazon so much!! Fourze was my first Rider so it felt very lovely and comfortable; there was a great familiarity about it. One day I gotta talk about how much I love Fourze's HBV and how they saw the most perfect opportunity and took it!


I just also didn't want to judge by Amazon because from what I know, it was extremely different in a lot of ways to other Riders. Amazon's origins lay in nature rather than technology; the enemy is a lot more external than internal; there's a lot more violence that led to it being cancelled earlier; as a character Amazon is a lot simpler and unburdened by complex feelings of betrayal. None of these are fundamentally bad things, it's just that I really don't feel I can fully get a grasp of Showa Rider as a whole based on it!