[Switchblade]

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Originally Posted by Fredbob392

Yeah, I could not even begin to remember which of the three e-boys was which. Some of the most forgettable villains in a long time.

He wasn't the one that did flips and wasn't the one that was the final boss.

[Fredbob392]

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Originally Posted by Switchblade

He wasn't the one that did flips and wasn't the one that was the final boss.

Ah, so the most forgettable of the most forgettable (I'm sorry Legiel stans)

[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

From this assumption, I immediately have the thought of Geats wrapped in nine scarves. I'm sure it can be done cool, but the idea itself is very funny.
And my guess is for the next show. What if the rider after Geats is a firefighter or a lifeguard? This will provide an interesting and yet untapped setting for the franchise, bring it back into the heroic mainstream after the selfish protagonist, and create interesting antagonism in the crossover. And it will also be possible to devote time to the reflection of a hero who wants to save people, but choosing between his work and the role of a rider, he is inevitably forced to neglect someone.

Honestly, I'd think that, occupation doesn't necessarily picture someone, like assuming that having noble occupation (like firefighter or lifeguard, or soldier which generate hero worship) means they're immediately true heroes and those who aren't are out of touch of others' problems. I mean the people in those occupations also can be self-serving, like taking that job only because it's the best paying job they could get, or outright unethical or corrupt.

Geats has actual firefighter in Takeshi who was accused as having ulterior motives by Michinaga, but otherwise you don't need occupation like firefighter to want to save people, like Keiwa (restaurant employee) and Neon (celebrity). The latter or Riders like Ittetsu (with Takeshi's wish being unknown) would also be an example that wanting things for themselves and caring for others isn't mutually exclusive (which can apply on main Riders like, Ikki's soccer dreams) - of which for Ace too the part of him helping people is genuine, his problem is being unethical (applies too to people like Tendou who is even worse).

This was also the reason why I brought it up in Die's Saber thread, that, doing something out of Duty and Oaths doesn't necessarily mean they're necessarily that noble like the occupation expects, of which I personally would value actual inner desire to do good more rather than obligation.

[Mesnick]

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Geats has actual firefighter in Takeshi who was accused as having ulterior motives by Michinaga,

I think this scene is more meant to show Michinaga's cynicism than Shiro's character. Moreover, later in the show there is proof of Polar Bear's sincerity when the Jamato created from his ID-Core saves another Jamato by repeating these words.

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Ace too the part of him helping people is genuine, his problem is being unethical (applies too to people like Tendou who is even worse).

I'm currently on pause from Geats, but from what I've seen, Ace saves civilians for prizes for completing additional missions. At least I haven't seen evidence to the contrary. Neon's help to the Sai family was a selfless salvation, everything else in the DGP world can be attributed to the desire to get a buckle. Of course, in the case of Keiwa, it is obvious that helping people is most important to him, but Ace managed to attribute this to selfishness in the case of Sarah.

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I personally would value actual inner desire to do good more rather than obligation.

Then he can be a volunteer. Yes, there are people who do this out of selfish motives, but at least this allows you to exclude salary from the list of motives. As I wrote, I am interested in a positive hero in a situation where he simply cannot help everyone.

[Matrixbeast]

Ace has done selfless acts when it comes to saving others (Such as when he made a massive donation to save Ginpen's son's life). As well, when he lost his memory briefly, he was still willing to jump in and save others.

He's just a massive asshole.

[Mesnick]

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Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Ace has done selfless acts when it comes to saving others (Such as when he made a massive donation to save Ginpen's son's life).

To be honest, this moment has always bothered me. That is, if money was needed to save Ginpen's son, couldn't Ginpen just take out a loan? He also worked in a company where he did not take Keiva, the bank had to meet him. Maybe he just has a bad credit history.
In any case, this act is selfless, but also not fraught with risk. The money belongs to Star of the stars of the stars, so Ace essentially lost nothing and risked nothing by helping the boy. Plus, including his own logic, he could just try to calm his conscience for letting child`s father die, and then this is also selfishness.

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As well, when he lost his memory briefly, he was still willing to jump in and save others.

And here he could just be trying to gain the trust of warriors fighting monsters in order to regain his memory. After all, this way he had much more chances to get closer and touch the ID-Core.

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He's just a massive asshole.

Or pretending to be? The main problem with Ace is that we don't know anything about him except that he's lying. So even when we find out something, it cannot be trusted. So basically, he's a person with a purpose and a set of skills to achieve it, but no character. And this is the protagonist of a computer game, not a show.

[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

I'm currently on pause from Geats, but from what I've seen, Ace saves civilians for prizes for completing additional missions. At least I haven't seen evidence to the contrary. Neon's help to the Sai family was a selfless salvation, everything else in the DGP world can be attributed to the desire to get a buckle. Of course, in the case of Keiwa, it is obvious that helping people is most important to him, but Ace managed to attribute this to selfishness in the case of Sarah.

As you said, you're on pause, but I more confidently said this, because there's already canon proof of the genuineness in ep. 24 onwards. But even then I can already see the genuineness before, I dislike characters other than Keiwa to have all their decency being met with sarcasm and distrust as something ulterior, which'd be just the same as Michinaga's cynicism above - I'd want for cynicism to not be viewed as rational, and that they can be blind too like idealism (and in ep. 8 it was selfishness to disregard other's wants due to feeling that they're insignificant to his wish, but that's a moment of weakness for Keiwa which he went in to prove it wrong later, and that later he grew to value each of Rider's wishes by standing up for them against Girori).

Regarding Neon, getting tired of Sae's family being the only example brought up; I mentioned her because saving Sae's family is far from the only example. She's shown to consistently help anyone she can, including many scenes of doing so side-by-side with Keiwa, helping Sae is just one part of it (previous episode she's also worried sick about another family in Sara), but the genuine part for me (before a canon one on ep. 24), was about how she consistently helped other Riders, which, would grant no benefit unlike civilians (which she also saves)? Such as helping Ittetsu and Michinaga (who is hostile to her) several times, and if you'd think Michinaga is the "safety net", then Ittetsu is just a "load" that can be left for dead (which is also unknown if he'd be replaced with Keiwa for her help in ep. 11)?

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

In any case, this act is selfless, but also not fraught with risk. The money belongs to Star of the stars of the stars, so Ace essentially lost nothing and risked nothing by helping the boy. Plus, including his own logic, he could just try to calm his conscience for letting child`s father die, and then this is also selfishness.

I personally disagree of downplaying good deeds due to "lost nothing" or such; being heroic requires them to suffer or such - celebrating someone's misery for "genuineness". Ryuki showed that of Kagawa claiming heroes have to suffer which resulted in Tojo murdering his close friends to "suffer" as per Kagawa's instruction. I'd think being heroic is just about consistently, genuinely doing good deeds to others (or for assholes like Ace, the genuineness would strengthen his good side, I'd disagree with ignoring his bad side though but it's another story), it's ok to preserve yourself, you can be generous by giving someone what they need in necessary amount (and including when it's more than what they need but not making yourself broke), but also keep what you have to perform another generosity to other people later. And to downplay it as "calm his conscience"... that's just pure cynicism, there are endless ways to twist someone's deeds as negative. Like, having conscience means empathetic and is an important aspect in heroism to feel for others' issues?

[Mesnick]

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

As you said, you're on pause, but I more confidently said this, because there's already canon proof of the genuineness in ep. 24 onwards. But even then I can already see the genuineness before, I dislike characters other than Keiwa to have all their decency being met with sarcasm and distrust as something ulterior

So after all, the show itself asks us to perceive their actions in this way. Like I said, the only known thing about Ace is that he lies. To believe him with such introductory means to take on the role of Keiwa, which means to be deceived about 50% of the time.

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I'd want for cynicism to not be viewed as rational, and that they can be blind too like idealism

Well, Michinaga is a concrete example of just such blind cynicism. In fact, he and Keiwa are two extremes, which is why even their desires are directly opposite. It is not clear why you then unconditionally believe him in Shiro's characterization.

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Regarding Neon, getting tired of Sae's family being the only example brought up; I mentioned her because saving Sae's family is far from the only example. She's shown to consistently help anyone she can, including many scenes of doing so side-by-side with Keiwa, helping Sae is just one part of it (previous episode she's also worried sick about another family in Sara), but the genuine part for me (before a canon one on ep. 24), was about how she consistently helped other Riders, which, would grant no benefit unlike civilians (which she also saves)? Such as helping Ittetsu and Michinaga (who is hostile to her) several times, and if you'd think Michinaga is the "safety net", then Ittetsu is just a "load" that can be left for dead (which is also unknown if he'd be replaced with Keiwa for her help in ep. 11)?

Well, I'm on hiatus, so I don't know how often and in what context the rescue of the Sae family is discussed. But I can definitely say that you are wrong. The Ninja buckle could only be obtained by saving another rider, so helping your comrades is fully justified and beneficial in the DGP.
Personally, I perceive Neon as an anti-hero. She is capable of both selfless deeds and cruelty. After all, directing Keiva to the mines, Neon definitely could not know that there would not be a bomb in the traps, after which his pieces would be scattered all over the street. That is, Ace couldn't shoot Girori's PunkJack, and even almost Jamato Michinaga didn't kill other riders (again, from what I saw). While Neon could very well have caused Keiva's death and certainly caused his injuries. So everything can be expected from her, especially considering that she won?t win either for plot or moral reasons.
I also noticed that it was the riders who died with desires that were fulfilled without the help of the DGP.
We don't know what Shiro and Michinaga's friend wanted, but apparently Ginpen's son could be saved with conventional medicine (albeit very expensive). And Retta certainly could lose weight and get married without risking her own life. The same goes for PunkJack with his musical career. This statistic makes me worry about Neon, as she has just such a fulfillable wish.

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I personally disagree of downplaying good deeds due to "lost nothing" or such; being heroic requires them to suffer or such - celebrating someone's misery for "genuineness". Ryuki showed that of Kagawa claiming heroes have to suffer which resulted in Tojo murdering his close friends to "suffer" as per Kagawa's instruction. I'd think being heroic is just about consistently, genuinely doing good deeds to others (or for assholes like Ace, the genuineness would strengthen his good side, I'd disagree with ignoring his bad side though but it's another story), it's ok to preserve yourself, you can be generous by giving someone what they need in necessary amount (and including when it's more than what they need but not making yourself broke), but also keep what you have to perform another generosity to other people later. And to downplay it as "calm his conscience"... that's just pure cynicism, there are endless ways to twist someone's deeds as negative. Like, having conscience means empathetic and is an important aspect in heroism to feel for others' issues?

Disagree. There is a difference between giving a couple of thousand from your account to charity and getting another person out of a burning house. And the first cannot be called heroism. This is no doubt a good deed, especially if done from the heart, but there is no heroism in it. Heroism does not require suffering, but it does require risk. For this is what distinguishes a hero from just a good person.
As for Tojo, I can only quote the proverb of my people: "Tell a fool to bow and he will break his forehead." Tojo is stupid and most likely mentally ill, so he should by no means be taken as an example.
As for the case with the son of Ginpen, then, again, I saw less than yours, but here are examples from the head of how his salvation may not be unselfish:
- This story is connected with time travelers. Perhaps the boy or his descendant will be important to Ace in the future;
- Ace wanted to see if it was possible to get a buckle for rescuing civilians in out-of-game situations;
- It happened in the second episode and could be a vestige of discarded scripts. I remember that at the beginning they still tried to make Ace a womanizer, but in the end neither Otoya nor Shotaro came out of him.
So it all comes down to how much you believe in Ace. And I repeat once again: the show and he himself asked the audience not to believe him

[Deepsea]

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

Well, Michinaga is a concrete example of just such blind cynicism. In fact, he and Keiwa are two extremes, which is why even their desires are directly opposite. It is not clear why you then unconditionally believe him in Shiro's characterization.

I actually have a theory that Keiwa and Michinaga are going to basically form a team that's against the GP in general. Keiwa wants to save as many people as possible, so stopping all GPs makes sense to him, and Michinaga wants to destroy all riders which will happen if the GPs end. My theory is the two of them will attempt to heist/kill the desire god at some point.

Also there's an idea that the jymato are becoming more alive, and could even begin to be "human" and move beyond simply imitating. That'll push Keiwa to fight to stop the conflict between the two. Michinaga is also a victim of the GP system and currently his rage at that system is being used to just perpetuate the same ideas/system that killed his friend. I think he'll realize that, and that'll push him back towards being a hero.

[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Or pretending to be? The main problem with Ace is that we don't know anything about him except that he's lying. So even when we find out something, it cannot be trusted. So basically, he's a person with a purpose and a set of skills to achieve it, but no character. And this is the protagonist of a computer game, not a show.

Yeah. The approach the show took of focusing more on Keiwa and Neon is interesting, but it does leave us with a more distant understanding of our actual title character.