[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Kiwami

I love these characters man, they are so good. Sachika is the champion, never doubted even once. And Hanto is just as real; to come around and face one’s mistakes isn’t easy. Plus, I like to see how Shouma now has the confidence to properly tell Hanto everything, as evident by him telling Hanto about meeting his mother.

Sachika is also the reason why Hanto ends up facing his mistakes, because of her calling him out. And also even Rakia.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

As mentioned before, Sachika was smart enough to see through Niwa's catfish scam, so she'd probably be immune to such Disney plot twist villains and love at first sight. She's already known Shouma for almost 6 months, so she can vouch for him being a genuinely good guy and correctly deduce that what's shown on social media is not what it looks like.

As what I've said in my posts, I do compare/treat Sachika similarly as most of the main Riders (which I also wish that the fandom will see another females that has all-loving type of personality the same as those main Riders too), which unfortunately for KR franchise, do often have this type being portrayed as having unwavering belief to others particularly their loved ones, which also usually translates to naivety. Do you view Sachika differently as for example, people like Shinji by this? Because I do want to differentiate what's the difference of someone having full faith on people but the ones that are naive (though tbf, it can be hard to figure out one's true colors) and isn't. Those kind of Disney plot twist villains are often the charismatic villains that as what you said, hide their true selves to deceive others and gain good publicity, allowing them to be transparent and get away with doing bad deeds behind the scenes and turn people against the heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Good to see Shouma finally being comfortable about being honest to Hanto, even volunteering information about his flashback to Sae. I agree that Hanto was wrong for having prejudice, but between his own critical thinking and interaction with Sachika and Lakia, he proves that he's still a good person who won't hold on to bad thoughts when he understands that he was wrong. I still think this could've been prevented if Shouma revealed it sooner, before the thoughts of prejudice developed.

People are praising Gavv here for not doing the misunderstanding trope, which you may agree, but I guess what you said here still sounds like a misunderstanding, but ofc you like Faiz (and Shoma and Hanto hiding each other's identity gives me Takumi and Yuuji vibes). I really understand why Shoma doesn't reveal his identity to Hanto, which is why I put more blame on Hanto for having an actual dark trait which got resolved here (he already had the prejudice thoughts since Soji's death, it's about all Granutes not what he plans for Shoma). I really relate to Shoma here, where I'm so closed-off and secretive, not wanting to reveal more/enough detail when I'm asked or wanting to convey something, because I fear about what others would react or do to other people following it (I guess, like Hanto telling Sachika to reject Shoma, for Gavv comparison here).

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I'd imagine a lot of people will like this episode simply because they're happy to see a misunderstanding in Kamen Rider cleared up so quickly, but I think that superficial joy risks missing what actually makes the story work. It's not a matter of if it avoids the kinds of themes and character dynamics you might see elsewhere; what's important is that it stays so true to the themes and character dynamics of Gavv.

And about what people praise here, this'd be what a handful of people consider a good and a right way to write stories/characters, where the misunderstanding part would be what they consider a bad writing and contrived drama. You're a Faiz fan too, but I wonder what actually counts as a bad writing, and what counts as a misunderstood work where it's more of people not getting it. I know you do usually defend unpopular stuff, and I can have a similar feeling of being conflicted if something bad is actually bad or people not understanding it (can sound snobby, but dunno).

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Sachika is the person to look at if you want to know what I mean by all this. (As she so often is!) There's a simple relief to seeing her refuse to give up her faith in Shouma after last week's revelations, but that by itself doesn't actually move the drama *forward*. Where that comes from is how specific an angle the show finds to have Sachika express her feelings, with her instead being explicitly upset with Hanto. Trusting a friend is one thing, but Sachika shows an immense consideration for Shouma's own perspective on top of that, and both of those things are key to how Hanto ultimately makes amends with Shouma.

Sachika is someone exactly similar to the goody two shoes kind of main Riders, her goal is to make everyone happy. So she should act the same as those main Riders too where they often want to put their full faith on other people. Then again, obviously her putting faith on Shoma is the right way, where those main Riders are often criticized and getting their kindness seen as naive, when they put their faith on someone audience find unlikable, or especially if they put a misplaced faith.

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Last week, he was smart enough to step back and try to view things objectively, but that was also part of what led to him being fooled by Bitter Gavv. What he learns from Sachika here is that it's still important to think about those subjective viewpoints too, which leads first to him understanding his own feelings better, and realizing why he instinctively got in Vram's way.

And even Rakia also called out Hanto about attempting to kill Shoma after finding out his identity. Rakia is a worse person who's still uncaring about humans, which is why even though Rakia's lecture is shorter of telling Hanto that he sucks, it's probably more embarassing to be in the wrong compared to a supposed permanently villainous species that Hanto accuses Shoma and Rakia of being in the same league together.

[Zolda]

I have several new hypotheses:
- So far, the normal Granutes of the week have pinkish/brownish Gavv, and none of them have red Gavv. The elusive Wolf Granute had a red Gavv because he was likely another human-Granute hybrid similar to Shouma's, and he worked as one of Stomach's part-timers. But why did the elusive Wolf Granute look like a normal Granute, only with a red Gavv? If he was a human-Granute hybrid, does it mean that he also had a human form, just like Shouma does? And, if he was a human-Granute hybrid yet had a full Granute form, then does it mean that Shouma also has a full Granute form too?
- Since Hanto's mom was actually fine and pretty much unharmed after being kidnapped by the elusive Wolf Granute, it's very likely that he did his crime with 100% full awareness (though maybe still under the command of Lango or another Stomach elite, or even Dente(!)), not due to being in a berserk state like I previously hypothesized.
- Like I mentioned in my first post, as shown in the preview section @ 23:08, based on the color scheme, the Chocold RG's are very likely produced by Dark Shouma, and Kenzou give them to Hanto to manipulate him further. But if they're indeed produced by Dark Shouma, then doesn't it mean that giving them to Hanto will fully expose the connection between Kenzou and Dark Shouma? Hanto could simply ask Shouma to confirm whether or not the Chocold RG's were produced by Shouma, and Shouma (being the only sole producer of RG's prior to Dark Shouma's appearance) would immediately know if those strange-looking RG's were his products. If Shouma told Hanto that he never produced such strange-looking RG's, then Hanto (if he still has normal, healthy, and well-functioning logic, rationality, and common sense) would immediately be able to conclude that those RG's were produced by Dark Shouma. If Hanto knows that those RG's were produced by Dark Shouma, a known villain, then Kenzou's plan to manipulate him further is a very very very stupid plan that has already failed even before execution. And there's also the other possibility that those RG's were produced by Nyelv (via a still unknown method like he did with the Doppudding and Purujelly RG's), which is also bad because it exposes the connection between Kenzou and Nyelv. Since Hanto's problem with Shouma is pretty much resolved, if Hanto needs a stronger RG, then he could just borrow it from Shouma, and he'd no need to rely on Kenzou as a middleman giving him RG's anymore, since all the RG's from Kenzou are stolen from Shouma anyway. If my hypothesis is true (that the Chocold RG's were produced by Dark Shouma and they're used by Kenzou to manipulate Hanto) and Hanto is still fooled by Kenzou's stupid plan and decide to use the dangerous Chocold RG's and let himself be manipulated by Kenzou again, then Hanto will have succeeded in demonstrating that he's the stupidest second Rider in this franchise.
Gavv 22 @ 23.08

- A further elaboration of my hypothesis above is that if Hanto does end up using the Chocold RG's to transform into KR Valen's dark rider form, then there's a possibility that the upgrade form and or final form for KR Valen are also granted by RG's produced by Dark Shouma. There's even the possibility that there could be one RG or power-up device that would be shared between Dark Shouma/KR Bitter Gavv (or other Granutes who could be the next KR Bitter Gavv) and Hanto/KR Valen's dark Rider form in upgrade form (and or final form). Perhaps that RG or power-up device would be used by Jeebh who would transform as the final Granute who is infected with Dark Shouma's cells (like I hypothesized in my posts in episode 21 thread here and in episode 22 thread here), though he may not ultimately use the Henshin Belt Bitter Gavv, which opens the possibility of the appearance of a new Premium Bandai-exclusive Driver, haha.
- Yet another elaboration of my hypothesis above is that Hanto's use of the Chocold RG's and the Granute internal organ implanted inside his body will finally cause his human DNA to mutate into Granute DNA like I've hypothesized in my post in episode 7 thread here.
- How was Kenzou (if he's indeed the one who created Dark Shouma as a clone of Shouma) able to create a copy of Shouma's red Gavv/Henshin Belt Gavv? Shouma's red Gavv/Henshin Belt Gavv is a prosthetic device (just like the Stomach Drivers), not an organ, so Kenzou should not be able to copy it by cloning Shouma's cells. Did Nyelv give him Dente's schematics of Shouma's Henshin Belt Gavv? There's no reason for for Nyelv to allow Kenzou to access Dente's schematics of Shouma's Henshin Belt Gavv because Kenzou is only responsible for developing the Valen Buster (and manipulating Hanto).
- I forgot to mention that the most likely endgame of Kenzou's plan is not only creating the ultimate Driver, but also creating the ultimate Driver that would allow a human to transform into a Rider without even requiring the Granute internal organ to be implanted inside his body. So yeah, his motivation is likely similar to Sengoku Ryoma/KR Duke who was also a genius scientist with no skin in the game who only wanted to consolidate the most power for himself without exposing himself to any form of risk. He, like Sengoku Ryoma, only wants to get the end product, and manipulate other people (Hanto, Lage 9, Shouma, and Dark Shouma, especially Hanto; or in Sengoku Ryoma's case, the Beat Riders, especially Kaito Kumon/KR Baron) to be used as pawns. He, like Sengoku Ryoma, only wants to get the prize without getting himself dirty. The scene of Hanto/KR Valen in his dark form killing Kenzou/KR Bake(?) could be similar to how Kaito Kumon/KR Baron in his Lord Baron kaijin form killed Sengoku Ryoma/KR Duke. This point also adds another explanation to the possibility of Hanto's human DNA mutating into Granute DNA like I mentioned above.
- I also forgot to mention that in the preview section @ 23:12, behind Lango is likely shown at least one human corpse laying on a platform, ready to be processed into Dark Snack spice. That human was another human who was killed by drowning like I mentioned in my first post above, and Hanto's mom was the next human in line to be killed. In my post in episode 12 thread here I asked who told Kid Shouma the crucial details of the Dark Snack production. From this preview scene, it's likely the answer is clear: Lango the stupid CEO. In my post in episode 20 thread here I asked who allowed Kid Shouma to freely roam inside the Dark Snack factory and get near the kidnapped humans such as Hanto's mom, and who even allowed Hanto's mom (an obvious hostage) to freely roam inside the factory in the first place. Once again, from this preview scene, it's likely the answer is clear: Lango the stupid CEO villain. So yeah, Kid Shouma was likely able to encounter Hanto's mom simply due to Lango's utter stupidity as a CEO who didn't bother to keep the factory sterile out of external interferences (like Kid Shouma) who posed the risk of messing with the Dark Snack production line (and even leaking the internal secrets of Stomach's illegal drug factory). As usual in this story, one of the main laws of atrocious writing applies: No stupidity = no plots.
Gavv 22 @ 23.12

- Why haven't the Granute police do anything to deal with Stomach's criminal operation? I find it really really really weird that it's pretty much halfway in the story, but there's not even the slightest activity from the Granute police/law enforcement, except the very brief statement mentioned by Lango the stupid CEO villain in episode 5 @ 04:53 when he said that he was concerned that the Granute government might've cracked down on Stomach's illegal drug operation. Apart from that, the story has never hinted any investigative activity by the Granute police/law enforcement. None. Nada. Nothing. Nothing. The Stomach corporation is not only involved in manufacturing the Dark Snacks as a form of novel, luxury drugs, but they've also dealt in trafficking. When kidnapping humans from the human world and smuggling them into the Granute world, they've dealt in human trafficking, and when smuggling the Granute part-timers out of their their homeworld into the human world, they've also dealt in *drum roll* *wait for it* *drum roll* Granute trafficking! What Stomach corporation is doing is the textbook definition of a drug cartel dealing in a 2-way human trafficking operation! So many junkie Granutes have been mysteriously missing (and or dead, such as in Komel's case) from their society in 2 decades(!), and the Granute police/law enforcement authority hasn't done nothing to investigate it? And worse, like I mentioned in my post in episode 19 thread here, if Lage 9, a mere ordinary civilian with virtually zero detective/investigative skills, was able to connect the dots and trace the name Dark Snacks to Stomach corporation in just several months, then the Granute police should've had done 1.000.000x more than what he did. No friggin' way the Granute police/law enforcement authority are still in the dark after 2 decades of Stomach's Dark Snack operation.
- Mmmmmaaaaayyyyybbbbbeeeee...

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Do you view Sachika differently as for example, people like Shinji by this? Because I do want to differentiate what's the difference of someone having full faith on people but the ones that are naive (though tbf, it can be hard to figure out one's true colors) and isn't.

Yeah, Shinji looks for the good in others, while Sachika clearly sees the good in others. For Primary Riders, I'd say Sachika is more like Kenzaki or Eiji, who were good influences on Hajime and Ankh. While she doesn't act on conjecture for quick accurate judgments, she can take the measure of people by being in their company long enough. So it's not like her faith in Shouma is based on nothing, she's just been his friend long enough to know he's a good guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

People are praising Gavv here for not doing the misunderstanding trope, which you may agree, but I guess what you said here still sounds like a misunderstanding, but ofc you like Faiz (and Shoma and Hanto hiding each other's identity gives me Takumi and Yuuji vibes). I really understand why Shoma doesn't reveal his identity to Hanto, which is why I put more blame on Hanto for having an actual dark trait which got resolved here (he already had the prejudice thoughts since Soji's death, it's about all Granutes not what he plans for Shoma). I really relate to Shoma here, where I'm so closed-off and secretive, not wanting to reveal more/enough detail when I'm asked or wanting to convey something, because I fear about what others would react or do to other people following it (I guess, like Hanto telling Sachika to reject Shoma, for Gavv comparison here).

Takumi and Kiba did resolve the misunderstanding soon after learning each other's identities though, with Kusaka being necessary for the plot to extend it. The healthy example of Wataru and Nago is from another Inoue season, so his favorite misunderstanding trope isn't as extreme as people like to exaggerate.
It's good that you relate to Shouma, as he's certainly a strong role model hero. However, his hesitation to speak his thoughts is still a flaw, albeit a fair and understandable one. Being a good influence on others sometimes means being willing to say stuff they don't want to hear. If they're healthy enough, they'll respect the honesty and strive to become better. If not, that's their problem.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Yeah, Shinji looks for the good in others, while Sachika clearly sees the good in others. For Primary Riders, I'd say Sachika is more like Kenzaki or Eiji, who were good influences on Hajime and Ankh. While she doesn't act on conjecture for quick accurate judgments, she can take the measure of people by being in their company long enough. So it's not like her faith in Shouma is based on nothing, she's just been his friend long enough to know he's a good guy.

All of the boy scout primary Riders would be good influences to the other characters around them (not all but still). Though tbf, said charismatic villains who deceive others could be in the good guy's company for long enough, likely for example Sou Fueki in Wizard, or the figures in a seemingly good organization like Tennoji in Blade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Takumi and Kiba did resolve the misunderstanding soon after learning each other's identities though, with Kusaka being necessary for the plot to extend it. The healthy example of Wataru and Nago is from another Inoue season, so his favorite misunderstanding trope isn't as extreme as people like to exaggerate.
It's good that you relate to Shouma, as he's certainly a strong role model hero. However, his hesitation to speak his thoughts is still a flaw, albeit a fair and understandable one. Being a good influence on others sometimes means being willing to say stuff they don't want to hear. If they're healthy enough, they'll respect the honesty and strive to become better. If not, that's their problem.

It's indeed a flaw, which should also be acknowledged that a character being morally good doesn't mean that they're "mary sue"/flawless like some claim, that flaws don't only consist of dark traits - this kind of flaw is like one being socially awkward or shy though. But if people can't see flaws in even a likable villain, then they likely would never view Shoma as having flaws he needs to work on. Something like Kusaka still insisting that the Orphnochs are all evil including Takumi or Kiba might be viewed as the miscommunication part too to accuse the series as creating contrived conflicts by not making Kusaka know better like he's supposed to be, that he should be smarter than the way he presented than the way he was in the show. Though Inoue was kept on a leash for the TV shows, as in the unrestricted Kiva novels, Nago was villainous.

[Switchblade]

I'm getting caught up on Gavv (again) and I just wanted to note that the opening scene with Shouma and his uncle is aggressively not changing my mind about my whole "Gochizos are poop" theory.

[Mesnick]

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Originally Posted by Switchblade

I'm getting caught up on Gavv (again) and I just wanted to note that the opening scene with Shouma and his uncle is aggressively not changing my mind about my whole "Gochizos are poop" theory.

Either that or male pregnancy. Considering that after Shouma "eat" them by his Gavv, it`s hard to say which is worse.