[DaikaijuSokogeki01]

^ I'm referring to the plotline with George's dad, where he implanted him with a demon and then abandoned him. But it was all forgiven because his dad kept his drawings and felt really, really bad about it.

[FairyKing]

Oh hey, I totally called it about the Agents being the Stomach family's equivalent to Gochizous!

[Sunred]

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Congrats on your 11000th post!

Now where was that bottle of champagne...

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Why'd he get that moment?

*shrugs* Ultimately sell toys?

[Sh Ranger]

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Well, Tendou is a mary sue because of his hypercompetence and invincibility, rather than righteousness/moral reason. Tendou is of course, more morally questionable/anti-heroic than most of the main Riders, so he's more expected to do that kind of decision of denying Hiyori's freedom, rather than the imperfect, but morally pure other main Riders. Of course, him being a mary sue means no one can stand up to him when he makes that decision.

I explained in the Episode 1 thread that Tendo's heroism shines in morals people learn when they meet him. An antihero does good deeds for reasons other than heroism, but Tendo walks the path of heaven, so he actually does good deeds with good intentions. His action towards Hiyori showed a rare flaw in his heroism, that he can lose sight of the path of heaven when his sisters are in danger. How fitting that the only one who could take Hiyori away from Tendo was the Worm who copied him, inheriting his Mary Sue trait in a dark way.

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Obviously they'd expect that, as they aren't humans unlike Shoma (half), and what's known is that the Stomach family holds humans in disdain. You'd seem to hold Lango in higher regard here, but it seems that Siita and Jiip would be what's relatively more 'sympathetic' here, as it'd likely show they can be potential victims to Lango's higher position and oppressor.

I don't currently sympathize with any of the matrilineal Stomach siblings, as they're all abducting and murdering humans to make addictive drugs for their fellow Granutes who become doomed to be killed by Kamen Rider. Both races are being harmed by their evil confections, so Jeep and Theta are foolish to be like, "but we're family!" like they expect that to have any weight on Lango's decision making process, when those twins clearly don't give a damn about family either, other than each other.

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Why'd he get that moment?

Maybe he'd learn a painful revelation about the red-Gavved Granute Wolf.

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Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

^ I'm referring to the plotline with George's dad, where he implanted him with a demon and then abandoned him. But it was all forgiven because his dad kept his drawings and felt really, really bad about it.

Yeah, there's also Gif, Vail, Tasuke and Olteca's father. The Igarashi parents were the outliers!

[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Sunred

*shrugs* Ultimately sell toys?

Only final form debut would be required for that.

I mean, as I've said here, if they do something that seems off to you, it's not necessarily only done simply for toys or such.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I explained in the Episode 1 thread that Tendo's heroism shines in morals people learn when they meet him. An antihero does good deeds for reasons other than heroism, but Tendo walks the path of heaven, so he actually does good deeds with good intentions. His action towards Hiyori showed a rare flaw in his heroism, that he can lose sight of the path of heaven when his sisters are in danger. How fitting that the only one who could take Hiyori away from Tendo was the Worm who copied him, inheriting his Mary Sue trait in a dark way.

I don't know if I've said this to you, but it's common for people to deem anti-heroic ones as only the ones that do good deeds outside of heroism, and for people to only condemn non-heroic reasons like popularity, but anti-heroes means heroes that has unheroic/dark traits (and aren't one-off thing but recurring), and it doesn't only consist of non-heroic reasons, it can consist of other things like them being pragmatic or ruthless (willing to resort to questionable deeds like torture or extortion), overly violent (pay evil unto evil like brutally killing bad guys), or being a hostile asshole (e.g. being self-righteous and/or arrogant to refuse to listen to others, being prejudiced to something to treat them lower than others, apathetic to people's predicament outside of saving their lives), etc. Like, despite usually only using non-heroic reasons, dunno if they realize that an example usually brought up as anti-heroic one is Punisher, who has an altruistic motivation of preventing people being harmed by criminals.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Yeah, there's also Gif, Vail, Tasuke and Olteca's father. The Igarashi parents were the outliers!

They never justify or absolve Giff, Vail, or Orteca's father. Tasuke's obviously not flat-out evil like those but dunno about their opinion regarding his final scenes.

[Zolda]

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Unfortunately, love and abusive psychopathy are not mutually exclusive. I believe Dente when he claims that Bouche loved his family, but it's just that the way he expressed that love was twisted, for all the reasons that Shouma called him out. Even a Mary Sue hero like Tendo would deny Hiyori's freedom to protect her from the 1999 Worms, until he thankfully saw the error of his ways. Love can make people do stupid things, so Bouche acting irrationally towards his loved ones is like the whole point.

You made the most fatal mistake: Conflating love with the illusion of love. Illusion, be it the illusion of love, illusion of competence, illusion of leadership, etc, is virtually the main thing that enables psychopaths (or rather, sociopaths aka psychopaths with social standing) to gain power and authority over the people they're toying with. Psychopaths are only able to give the illusion of love, not love.

Based on Dente's story, Bouche was not a psychopath, but a genuinely good man who had no other options. Bouche was not twisted, but was forced by situation. The truth is, Bouche still had other options, so his irrationality was not caused by love nor illusion of love, but by plain stupidity, and that's why his decision was soooooooooooo hilariously shallow and irrational. Like I elaborated in my first comment, he was the patron of the Stomach family, and as long as he was alive, no one would've dared to go against his words. If he was not stupid (or rather, was not intentionally made stupid by the writers), then he would've done the most rational thing any rational, logical, sane person with common sense would've done: He would've allowed Shouma and his mom to return to the human world and live their lives to the fullest, and to protect them he would've exerted his full authority and ordered all members of Stomach corporation from the highest to the lowest rank to never lay their hands on Shouma and his mom. He would've no need to imprison Shouma and his mom in the Stomach mansion and utterly destroy 20 years of their lives, especially Shouma's, who since his birth probably had never even took one step in the real world, be it in the Granute world or the human world.

If Bouche chose to be wise and rational, then Shouma and his mom would've been living in the human world under his protection, and they would've only recently been targeted by Lango et al who have had resented Bouche for protecting Shouma and his mom. If Bouche chose to be wise and rational, then Shouma would've discovered his powers since a long time ago. But, then again, the writers couldn't let Bouche to be rational (read: not stupid), because if they let him be rational, then his rational decision would've ruined their carefully planned convoluted plots, and the story would've gone haywire. If the writers let Bouche be rational, then the story would've started in a completely different way from the one shown in episode 1.

There are 2 things that make Bouche's stupid, nonsensical, irrational decision make a liiiiittttttttttle bit more sense.
- There was/is a member of the Stomach family, who could be Mother Stomach, who has/had more authority than Bouche did. This supreme member was/is able to veto any of Bouche's decisions, so his protection for Shouma and his mom could've been vetoed by this supreme member. But, although Bouche's decisions could've been vetoed by this supreme member, he still had the option of assigning several bodyguards he hired from outside Stomach corporation to protect Shouma and his mom, so Bouche still would have had no need to imprison and abuse Shouma and his mom in his mansion for 20 years.
- There's at least one other company that has manufactured their version of Dark Snacks to compete with the Stomach's. Bouche's power and authority were only effective inside Stomach corporation, so of course he couldn't protect Shouma and his mom if they were targeted by that other company. Even then, Bouche still had the option of assigning several bodyguards to protect Shouma and his mom, so Bouche still would have had no need to imprison and abuse Shouma and his mom in his mansion for 20 years. This hypothesis is weak because it's been shown that it was Dente who invented the Hito Press process, meaning Stomach corporation is the only manufacturer of Dark Snacks, unless Dente or another defector secretly sold his invention to other companies.

In Gotchard and Revice, this type of severe, virtually unresolvable logical anomalies were only apparent starting from episodes 25-30, or, in Geats' case, starting from episode 18, but in Gavv, due to its super duper hyper mega ultra-fast pacing, this logical anomaly has appeared much much much earlier by episode 6 in many instances. The violation of the most basic level of logic, rationality, and common sense is one of the hallmarks of manipulative/heavy-handed writing and convoluted story. The main problems of this series is not only its super duper hyper mega ultra-fast pacing, but also the severely manipulative/unnatural/forced/heavy-handed writing. If it's a natural/organic writing with an ultra-fast pacing, then it would only be a natural/organic story that loses its steam too early. Gavv doesn't only potentially loses its steam really really really fast, but has also revealed the many severe flaws in its writing philosophy much much much earlier compared to Gotchard and Revice. Gavv reveals itself to be a very bad story that also loses its steam very early. If the writers keep the super duper hyper mega ultra-fast pacing, then I'm afraid Gavv will potentially run out of juice by episode 15-20. I'm not sure how the writers were going to fill the remaining 30-35 episodes. Were they going to fill those episodes with a stretched, much slower pacing and a completely different philosophy of writing? I doubt it. Based on what's been shown so far, they were likely going to fill them with more barrage of information, more super duper hyper mega ultra-fast pacing, more heavy-handed writing, and more convoluted plot. Perhaps that's why this story has had 5 starter villains from the get-go.

It's still episode 6, but I can quite already see the core philosophy of the writing in this series:
More is more is more.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Shouma said he wants to be like Sachika, who represents ideal happiness to him. Why should Shouma settle for any job when he can get one that appeals to his desire to help others and potentially gives him more money to spend on his Tasty Diary and a warm place to live with a girl who cares about him? It's a sign of his character development that he's willing to be more selfish.

More money? Are you serious? Shouma could make much more money by working independently as a one-man cleaning service by employing the Gochizous to clean buildings at night. The Gochizous could probably clean a whole 5-story building in 30 minutes, like shown in episode 3 @ 09:36 when the Gochizous tidied up a whole room in just 3 seconds. He could also do detective jobs by commanding the Gochizous to do patrolling, spying, etc like shown in episode 6. Basically, by employing the Gouchizous, he could work independently and open his own jack-of-all-trade shop that would provide a much much much better service compared to Sachika's. His inhuman strength and the Gochizous are what made him a much much much better and effective worker than normal humans. If he's much better and effective than 99,999% of all humans, then he'd have a great bargaining position to ask for a higher pay from his employers. He could do all the hard work from 100 workers 99% faster, and he could simply ask for 10 times the wage of a worker, and it'd still be a huge steal for his employers and a huge steal for him as well. It's a win-win solution. I don't really get your faulty reasoning when you concluded that he'd make more money by working for Sachika, when he could easily make much more money by going solo.

After Shouma gets his basic necessities (shelter, foods, clothes, transportation, etc) fulfilled, then he can also do altruistic/charity/volunteer works in his spare time, which should be a lot. He'd have more time to help people both as a civilian and as a Kamen Rider. As I've elaborated above, settling for a solo job would've been a much better career path for him, both financially and psychologically.

Nothing about Shouma's decision in this context is a sign of character development. Nothing. On the contrary, he's made to be dependent on Sachika. His dumb, irrational, nonsensical decision is a giant red flag that he, like so many characters in this story, are indeed manipulated by the writers simply for the sake of moving the pre-planned, cookie-cutter plot. Shouma's decision to work for Sachika and his dependence on her is a lazy, convenient excuse to make her more relevant to the story. If Shouma decided to go solo and be independent, then Sachika would be virtually irrelevant to him, and she would only be likely relevant to Hanto who may still need her shop's service. Once again, this is one of the many evidences that the writers of this story love manipulative/unnatural/forced/heavy-handed writing.

Oh, and Shouma doesn't live with Sachika. He only lives in her shop as a resident shopkeeper. Sachika is likely living in the same apartment complex as Ritsu.

My solution:
Just make Shouma's decision as rational, logical, and sensical as possible. The plot should go like this:
- Shouma decides to work independently and open his own jack-of-all-trade shop.
- Due to his efficiency via employing the Gochizous, Shouma's jack-of-all-trade shop is steadily becoming the talk of the town.
- Sachika feels that her shop is starting to lose customers, so she decides to visit the up-and-coming shop to see for herself what makes it better than hers.
- Sachika is surprised to see that Shouma is actually the owner of the up-and-coming shop, but nonetheless decides to hire him to clean her and Ritsu's apartment to see with her own her eyes what makes his service better than hers. Shouma, being supervised directly by Sachika, is getting awkward and can't do his job well because he can't just employ the Gochizous in front of her. This could be a good outline to develop Shouma's awkward attempts to hide the Gochizous from Sachika and other humans.
- Hanto still needs intels about the Granutes, so he also decides to hire Shouma's service who is also gaining a reputation of doing well-done detective jobs. Hanto, who Shouma thinks is just a journalist/writer, is given many accurate intels by Shouma, so he's also curious as to how Shouma is able to do it well. Hanto is starting to be suspicious of Shouma's accurate intels and decides to secretly spy on him, and finds that KR Gavv often appears at the same time and place as Shouma. Shouma, who has been giving accurate intels to Hanto, is also starting to suspect Hanto because KR Valen also often appears at the same time and place as the info he's been giving to Hanto. This could be a good outline to develop Shouma's and Hanto's secret identity subplot.
- Sachika is starting to notice that Hanto has been using Shouma's service, and although on the outside they're acting cordial toward each other, she's starting to sense an aura of distrust between them. She's trying to find out what's causing the distrust and is also getting entangled in Shouma's and Hanto's secret identity subplot. In this context, she could potentially play the heroine role as the mediator of the conflicts between the protagonist and the second Rider.

My solution is basically: Make all the characters behave as rational, logical, and sensical as possible, and then build the plot from there. Evaluate it, and if you don't like the initial outline, then work backward and revise it, and then re-evaluate it, and so on. Avoid adding unnecessary details, subplots, plot twists, etc at all cost because it will only make your story convoluted and incomprehensible. Making your characters behave as rational, logical, and sensical as possible according to the story's internal logic and laws and then building the plot from there is a much much much better way of writing a natural, organic story, compared to preparing a cookie-cutter, convoluted 7D plot with many unnecessary details, subplots, plot twists, etc and then forcing the characters to fit into that convoluted 7D plot at the expense of logic, rationality, and common sense, which will only create a manipulative/unnatural/forced/heavy-handed writing like what's been shown in this story so far.

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Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

For the love of God, I am going to beg Komura to PLEASE not redeem what Bouche did to Shouma and his mom. We don't need more Revice-level bullshit of justifying parental abuse with "good intentions". It sends a terrible message to the primary audience of these shows that they need to just suck it up when their parents treat them like trash.

Weren't good intentions what motivated Bouche's decision? Wasn't that what actually happened according to Dente's account in episode 5 @ 09:50? Dente said that Bouche/Father Stomach intentionally abused Shouma and his mom to protect Shouma and his mom from being targeted as humans spices by Lango et al and their agents. Dente said that Bouche was intentionally making them suffer and unhappy to make them unattractive as human spices. So, yes, Gavv had already reached Revice-level bullshit by episode 5.

The problem is not only how bullshit Bouche's decision was. The bigger problem was how utterly irrational and nonsensical his decision was. If Bouche actually cared about Shouma and his mom, then he should've let them go and transferred them back to the human world, instead of house arresting them in the Stomach mansion and abusing them for 20 years. He could've commanded Lango et all, their agents and all Stomach members in the human world to white list and never lay their hands on Shouma and his mom. I've elaborated on this on paragraphs 2-4 of the first section above.

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Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

Also, it's so hilarious how Gotchard couldn't figure out how to incorporate Houtarou's dad into the plot, while this show has gotten it out of the way by episode 5.

From my understanding, Gotchard tried to make Houtarou's dad some kind of central figure in a uber-convoluted plot twist. Due to the serious mishaps happening between the scene, that plot twist was severely delayed and eventually didn't come to fruition. From several rumors that I've read, he'll finally appear in the Graduations V-Cinext film as the anti-hero/dark Rider.