[Androzani84]

Well I can say it. Laage9 is what got me back into the show. The first few episodes did very little to get me invested in the series. But the fact he’s basically exactly the kind of wild card I root for over both main sides makes me want him to get some success in his edgy loner routine, whether he joins the heroes or not (though the former option seems unlikely, given he’s shown he doesn’t care much for human lives, even calling the idea of helping others ‘dull’). Especially since unlike a lot of them, he gets a sad backstory flashback to hint at a deeper story with him.

Also, the camera work during the fight scene had two very notable quality shifts. And I wasn’t even looking out for hem. The contrast just changed so suddenly it was obvious.

[gashatfreak]

Fun little detail, but it's implied that the account Hanto and Shouma used to spread the drawing is a throwaway account.

[Sh Ranger]

Shouma: "Hanto, we need to Ride The Wind!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zolda

The Vrastum Gear looks really nice. Can it use regular RG's, not just tubular shaped ones like Doppudding and Purujelly? That doesn't seem to be the case. If it's true, then the DX Vrastum Gear could have a very limited playability, like the DX Sclash Driver, albeit looking much better than the DX Henshin Belt Gavv and DX Build Driver.

I was disappointed that there were only 2 Sclash Jellies, as I was hoping there would be more, like maybe a power-up for Rogue. I hope that we haven't seen everything about the Vrastum Gear already, that would suck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

There can be just enigmatic minions in a villainous groups, having their own agenda. And not all would be doing it for good intentions, but villain infighting can happen for that regardless. Evil vs evil stuff. Even Nyelv doesn't exactly follow the main agenda of Stomach Inc. Won't be exclusive to Lage9 that a villain may take down another villain, but actions matter more, he's another Granute that are no different to others, who see no value in humans.

Could be an intriguing parallel that Hanto hates Granutes due to losing his mother to one, while Vram hates humans due to losing his little bro to Dark Snacks made from humans. Eradicating humans would be another way to resolve the Dark Snacks problem for the Granute world, but totally bad for humans. Maybe Shouma can be like Wataru as a bridge between his two lineages, making Hanto and Vram realize that Stomach are the only ones who need to be punished for their crimes against them both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

But getting redemption arc means they won't be judged for their deeds? There gotta be something they change about themselves to redeem themselves rather than them not really being in the wrong?

Exactly. Redemption isn't about what you did before, but rather what you do right now. Vram making and trading in Hitopresses to Stomach would be the evil that he'd need to redeem himself for, if he wants to go in that direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Kinda sad and funny to think this is already the third time we've had a cliffhanger of Gavv stumbling upon Hanto laying on the ground beaten half to death though! Poor guy is here just trying to be a solid friend and a good kouhai and he always seems to get "rewarded" like this. It's like the dude is just fated to suffer or something!

If this keeps up, it'll be the Lord of the Speed of Gavv.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gashatfreak

Fun little detail, but it's implied that the account Hanto and Shouma used to spread the drawing is a throwaway account.

Not surprising that they wouldn't want to take credit for such a poor drawing.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

And there would be room for it in an episode like this, because the action is far from the only thing that effortlessly makes room for loads of different things to matter all at once. Man, even just the quick beat of Shouma thinking back to when he killed Siita has quite a few layers going on when you stop to consider what the assumptions he's making there say about his own sense of guilt versus the reality of how much the rest of the Stomach Family besides Jiip actually seem to care about the loss.

Shoma had known that Lango mistreated both of the twins when he confronted Lango directly. Though not as much as Jeebh, I'd think Glotta also has cared for Shita's death, and she objected to Lango's indifference about it. Lango only views the twins as company tools and Nyelv only views them as a means to further his research, but dunno if Glotta (or even Bouche) being workaholics means she completely doesn't care about them tbh, as this case can happen to other normal, decent parents too for instance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Kinda sad and funny to think this is already the third time we've had a cliffhanger of Gavv stumbling upon Hanto laying on the ground beaten half to death though! Poor guy is here just trying to be a solid friend and a good kouhai and he always seems to get "rewarded" like this. It's like the dude is just fated to suffer or something!

In fighting, obviously Hanto will get that, as clearly Hanto isn't as good of a fighter as Shoma or Lage9, while also having worse equipments than the other 2. Fighting is all about one's capabilities, according to Soji, Hanto always loses the brawl he got into. Valen'd also want to massacre all Granutes without Gavv anyway, as he became a Rider before knowing Shoma.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

(though the former option seems unlikely, given he’s shown he doesn’t care much for human lives, even calling the idea of helping others ‘dull’).

I mean, obviously, he'd have bad traits for now, why would he be a villain and commit crimes otherwise? Villainy is rooted from bad traits in someone combined with the power/capability to act on it. Maybe you're not into this, considering your disinterest of Gavv otherwise, but being a hero/true Kamen Rider also typically involves inspiring others to be better, and people can change, like how initially one thinks helping others is dull, but they'd be later moved by the heroics and re-evaluate their view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Could be an intriguing parallel that Hanto hates Granutes due to losing his mother to one, while Vram hates humans due to losing his little bro to Dark Snacks made from humans. Eradicating humans would be another way to resolve the Dark Snacks problem for the Granute world, but totally bad for humans. Maybe Shouma can be like Wataru as a bridge between his two lineages, making Hanto and Vram realize that Stomach are the only ones who need to be punished for their crimes against them both.

That is if Vram would actually even be on the heroes' side in any time of the show. A handful of people already deem Vram as irredeemable due to his killed victims, where in comparison, though the redemption in Ghost like Alain is genuinely one of the best, it seems to be helped by how those villains didn't have onscreen bodycounts/cause irreparable damage that they don't think of them that badly. Even perhaps people like Mitsuzane too, though his crime list is massive, him not actually causing much bodycounts directly (only 1, and turns out Takatora survived) or causing irreparable damage can help him garner sympathy for some people. And also, Shoma likely should never forgive bad guys or believe terrible people may change anymore, considering his experience with the twins and Rojoe, with Hanto's view being validated here, and Shoma being someone who wouldn't spare villains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Exactly. Redemption isn't about what you did before, but rather what you do right now. Vram making and trading in Hitopresses to Stomach would be the evil that he'd need to redeem himself for, if he wants to go in that direction.

I feel alone in thinking this except for certain few (minority still) like you here, which might make me feel that I'm just being weird, where what Kiwami brought up there is what majority of people would think about redemption. Bringing up about this may be also taboo as this can be a sensitive topic for others. But about the terms too, dunno if using redemption is wrong, by what I wrote here, I thought redemption is about bad guys turning a new leaf, and yes some also has said that redemption is not about what others do, but about themselves, but the exact term for that might be reforming. Seems that many people view redemption term as about, winning over the people who formerly hated you for their deeds, getting undeserved forgiveness from them after all they've done, which can be what differentiates it from reforming/atoning, but it's also a common mistake for people to equate redemption with forgiveness.

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I mean, obviously, he'd have bad traits for now, why would he be a villain and commit crimes otherwise? Villainy is rooted from bad traits in someone combined with the power/capability to act on it. Maybe you're not into this, considering your disinterest of Gavv otherwise, but being a hero/true Kamen Rider also typically involves inspiring others to be better, and people can change, like how initially one thinks helping others is dull, but they'd be later moved by the heroics and re-evaluate their view.

Yeah, this is the intrigue of antiheroes for me. I don't want to see them just being depressed and angry until the end, I prefer to see them go on a personal journey to find meaning in their life and become a better person. Of course, a more severe antihero is expected to stay the same as they were at the start or become worse, but then they're often a contrasting role to highlight the moral traits in conventionally heroic characters. So, if Lakia was to stay a villain, then his lonely suffering becomes part of Shouma's story instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

And also, Shoma likely should never forgive bad guys or believe terrible people may change anymore, considering his experience with the twins and Rojoe, with Hanto's view being validated here, and Shoma being someone who wouldn't spare villains.

But Shouma still giving Chooul the usual "dousuru?" line shows that Rojoe's betrayal hasn't turned him cynical and he will continue to give the benefit of the doubt. However, I do expect him to be more skeptical the next time a Granute tries to deceive him like that, as he usually learns from mistakes quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I feel alone in thinking this except for certain few (minority still) like you here, which might make me feel that I'm just being weird, where what Kiwami brought up there is what majority of people would think about redemption. Bringing up about this may be also taboo as this can be a sensitive topic for others.

All the more reason to bring it up, if it helps clarify the definition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

But about the terms too, dunno if using redemption is wrong, by what I wrote here, I thought redemption is about bad guys turning a new leaf, and yes some also has said that redemption is not about what others do, but about themselves, but the exact term for that might be reforming. Seems that many people view redemption term as about, winning over the people who formerly hated you for their deeds, getting undeserved forgiveness from them after all they've done, which can be what differentiates it from reforming/atoning, but it's also a common mistake for people to equate redemption with forgiveness.

I think reform sounds like a more mild version, like, when a criminal does involuntary community service (Kuroto for example), they're "reformed" due to being forced to help a good cause, but the motivation for that could just be not wanting to do more hard work. Redemption can only come from within though, something they seek after a revelation that it's the right thing to do. Not really about whether others acknowledge their redemption, as they're not supposed to care about their publicity if they're sincere, which is the part that actually encourages the forgiveness.

[Mesnick]

For me personally, atonement consists of two parts: repentance and correction. Repentance is an admission that one’s previous opinions and actions were wrong. Rectification - correction of directly caused harm or similar damage (if possible). Good deeds without context can hardly be considered atonement. For example, if a thief stops a murder, this does not mean redemption for the thief. This simply speaks to his own moral code and personal boundaries of good and evil. But if a thief deliberately and without personal gain prevents a robbery, this can already be considered atonement.

[Zolda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughfighter83

i think gavv has been one of the worst written seasons i have watched, like other than the plot of of shoua's mother, he's just getting power ups out of nowhere and nothing else about him, even the sibling rivalry was weak, only get mad for a few episodes, one gets defeated and doesnt show up in any of episodes.

Gavv is quickly becoming the 2nd worst written entry in this franchise after (God forbid) Geats. Gavv has faaaaaaaaaaaar surpassed Revice in the atrocity department. The producer of this series (Naomi Takebe) is trying to outdo the atrocity she did last time in (God forbid) Geats, and the writers are trying to out-Yuuya Yuuya Takahashi's masterpiece of atrocious writing, which is also (God forbid) Geats, haha.

I fully concur about Shouma's lack of background story. He's what I call a sterile protagonist. A sterile protagonist is a protagonist whose only existence is to move the plot and nothing else. He only exists as a line that connects the gazillion of plot points in this atrocious story. His 25 years or so of life prior to episode 1 only existed as a person who was house arrested with his mom inside the Stomach mansion by Bouche. During those 25 years or so, aside from his mom, Bouche, the Stomach siblings, Dente, and maybe the Stomach family's maid and butlers, he didn't know any single person. He had virtually 0 friends and didn't belong to any circle, group, community, or organization, which is why there's nothing else about him. Nothing. His life is so empty because it's literally empty. To me, he's not a character, but a tool. He's just a tool that is used by the writers to advance the super duper hyper mega ultra convoluted plot.

One of the gazillion things that makes this story so pathetically, laughably, indefensibly atrocious is that Bouche's decision to imprison Shouma and his mom inside his mansion makes no sense at all, like I elaborated here and here. Basically, Bouche must be a person who has 10 IQ points with 0% logic, rationality, and common sense in order for the convoluted story (with 1000 plot points!) to begin. If Bouche is a normal person with functioning logic, rationality, and common sense then the convoluted plot of this atrocious story would've immediately fallen apart and episode 1 couldn't have begun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughfighter83

main villains havent done nothing other than show up once and dont even fight shouma, lage 9 like what's is the point of this character? feels like another random villain to give the driver to. would have made more sense for one of the main villains to use it.

The worst thing about Lage 9 is his awfully convenient power to make humans hApPy. The writers gave him his awfully convenient power simply because they needed him to rise up among Stomach part-timers' rank and got noticed by Lango in the quickest manner possible.

One of the Stomach siblings, likely Nyelv, is going to use a new Driver, but it'd happen much later in the story, likely after episode 30. Lage 9 could be a filler villain general/anti-hero spy to fill the direct confrontation with Shouma/KR Gavv and Hanto/KR Valen after Shita died and Jeebh went crazy. With the reveal of the DX Henshin Belt Gavv that will hit the stores on February 1, the villain general spot in the direct confrontation would likely be taken by KR Bitter Gavv which I think could be Jeebh. Lage 9/KR Vram would likely put aside after KR Bitter Gavv debuts in episode 21 on February 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughfighter83

hanto like again what's the point of giving him a rider form when he cant beat weak villains? his rider form is worse than gavv. hiding their identity's so annoying and every episode is just monster of week and nothing to build from these episodes.

Yep. The sEcReT iDeNtItY plot has been stale since 4 or 5 episodes ago. The interaction between Shouma and Hanto during this sEcReT iDeNtItY plot is sooooooooooooo pathetically, laughably stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughfighter83

sachika i mean like again what's the point of her being here if they are just keep her on sidelines? even if they give her a rider form, it's been a really weak attempt at it because there's just no character development with her, heck i think the character developments for all three has been really weak.

Your assessment about Sachika is spot on. I also think that she's the most irrelevant, pointless heroine in this franchise's history. She has virtually no connection to the story nor to the other 2 pRoTaGoNiStS. Her connection to the story is solely because Shouma is an utterly stupid and dysfunctional character who can't even find a job for himself (at 25 years old of age!) like I elaborated here, here, and here. If Shouma is a functional adult who can find a job to financially support himself then Sachika would be virtually irrelevant to the story. She'd be a minor recurring character tops. I also think that she'd be given a Rider power just to make her more relevant to the story, like the Revice writers did to Aguilera.

Like I've often said, the characters in this atrocious story are not people, but mere narrative tools to advance the uber-convoluted plot. The three main pRoTaGoNiStS have very weak character developments because they're not characters, but tools.

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Originally Posted by toughfighter83

like everything is just getting thrown in there and hope it sticks.

Bingo. That's the most fundamental essence of atrocious writing. The writers are forcefully cramming 1000 plot points into this atrocious story by violating logic, rationality, and common sense and or violate the story's internal logic. That's why I've always called this story a cheap, lazy, manipulated/unnatural/forced/heavy-handed writing. I'm 1000% convinced that the writers and producers of this story attended Yuuya Takahashi's Atrocious Writing 101 masterclasses, haha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughfighter83

if i sound harsh on this series, im sorry, im really trying to give this series a chance, im really not feeling it. from alot of kamen rider series that i have watched, one thing i loved about it was that the main characters are always there in every episode and you always feel bonding with them.

You don't need to apologize for calling a rotten apple a rotten apple. Call a spade a spade, a knife a knife.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughfighter83

with this series it feels like an empty shell.

An empty shell is the most perfect metaphor to describe this atrocious story. It looks gigantic but is so shallow and has almost no essence. It's 97-99% icing with only 1-3% cake. If you use juuuuuuuuuust a tiny dose of common sense, this atrocious story would immediately crumble like a house of cards. It contains 1000 plot points yet it's soooooooooooooo pathetically, laughably, indefensibly fragile, just like (God forbid) Geats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I was disappointed that there were only 2 Sclash Jellies, as I was hoping there would be more, like maybe a power-up for Rogue. I hope that we haven't seen everything about the Vrastum Gear already, that would suck.

Well, at least the DX Fullbottles can be inserted in the DX Sclash Driver, although as far as I can remember they only play 2 or 3 identical noises. That may not be the case with the regular, box-shaped DX RG's, since they don't look like they can be inserted into the DX Vrastum Gear's tubular-shaped slot. The DX Doppudding and Purujelly RG's can be inserted into the DX Henshin Belt Gavv (since they have similar contact plates like the the regular DX RG's), but not the other way around. Maybe Lage 9/KR Vram's upgrade form will use 1 new tubular-shaped RG, or perhaps he'd even use a modified version of Henshin Belt Gavv or Valen Buster.