[Deepsea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The idea of The Value Of Empathy In A World Of Violence, for me, it's not saying that you can always reach everybody. Sometimes there is evil, and it does need to be exploded. But the value is in trying, of not immediately consigning people to a violent end. You can tell a ton of great stories simply by pushing back in-story against a theme like The Value Of Empathy, of challenging it with characters who won't change, who can't be reasoned with. They're, like, the exceptions that prove the rule.

Oh, that's really a good way of putting it.

[GrandComplete]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Here comes
I do want to know what everyone is getting out of Kamen Rider as a franchise, though. What do you think Kamen Rider’s about these days?

Kamen Rider to me is about a choice. The choice to just do what thier powers intended to do or to defy thier own fates and become heroes. Stemming back to the original series Shocker goals were world conquest they were facists who if weren't stopped would subjecate humanity. Stripping people of thier own freedom. And that was the motto of the original series to fight for humanities freedom. And even if the indivdual message/theme of each season is different it always goes back to what thier using thiwer powers for.

[TokuKnight89]

For me, a "Rider" is a designation and not just a Hero who rides a motorcycle and kicks evil into oblivion!

Did the Showa Era tend to oversimplify things? Perhaps. Ishinomori probably had a story and theme to tell and Rider was a way of doing that. Plus, the Showa Era started in the '70s, when televised storytelling was more episodic in nature. Having a Hero lament his circumstances on screen wasn't always par for the course. Much of that was left to the disembodied narrator!

As the years passed and storytelling became more serialized, one can explore themes differently.

Changes in the World and in sensibilities between generations can also affect a theme and who best to represent that theme.

The Riders have become those who have a diverse level of intent, not always predicated on someone's expectations. They don't all have to ride a motorcycle or fight for someone else. Some fight for themselves, and that person may not want to be controlled. Such a person may also be offended at the idea of a big Kaijin Army trying to control or kill others, but this is on a character-by-character basis. It might be controversial, but it is definitely more "real".

However, the core of what a Rider is remains even among those who aren't in it for others. Even if a Secondary or Third Rider is in it for themselves, a Main Rider tends to be in it for themselves in addition to someone else, even if fighting for another wasn't their initial intention.

As to the idea that a Rider is "light" or "darkness", I find myself thinking of Gai from Ultraman Orb! In that series, Gai used the cards of Zoffy and Belial to access the power-up form "Thunder Breaster", which tended to rage out of control due to Belial's darkness. As Gai slowly found himself and his control over that form, he began to repeat a line which has weight here (barring translation inconsistencies) : "I embrace the Darkness to become the Light"!

Embracing what a Rider has done to them is part of what made the Showa Riders! Many of them are abducted and modified by an Army and escape before the brainwashing is complete. They then use their newfound power to fight even if nobody else will admit to an evil organization. A Rider was born from hate and darkness, but will affect change with love, peace, and a Rider Kick!

In the last two episodes of Wizard, the Heisei Generation aligned to fight a villain who claims to be the progenitor of all of their powers, be it Cards, GaiaMemories, AstroSwitches, etc. With a little help from the next Rider, Gaim, they beat this guy who can't understand how they won even though their power is his power! It's an extension of the "Hero Born From Evil" logic that predicated the Showa Riders. Even if someone is using your darkness, they will change the meaning of that darkness and fight by merging another's darkness with their personal light! In that sense, are they really using the powers of evil or the power of themselves?

As for Riders who try to save another, it's understandable and even goes back to the Showa Era! Saving someone who becomes a monster isn't always possible, but if it can be done, all the better. The monster-conversion process takes many forms and not all of those forms can be undone! There are those who will attempt to reach out because the "monster" really isn't one, just a disgruntled person who's made a bad choice. Some fight others to not only halt their agenda, but as a way of proving to them that they aren't in the right; the Rider Kick is meant to illuminate that person's darkness!

Can a Rider overcome their pain, or learn to live with it a little easier? Some "overcome" by trying to ensure that nobody else has to undergo that pain! Many accept what happened and more forward to an uncertain, but hopeful future.

I think a Rider, especially a modern one, is open to interpretation. They are what you want them to be; a multi-layered "Hero" with no singular definition other than being someone who fights to protect their own dreams or the dreams of others!

[AkibaSilver]

I mean, it depends on the show. You mention Build, but that definitely feels like a "fighting darkness with darkness" show, which Banjou at opne point basically saysis what he's doing. But I think you've also got a point with your empathy theme, which is where I pull what I think would be the defining theme out - "I've suffered, but I'm going to use that to make sure no-one else has to". You could argue that's a fairly generic theme, but since Kamen Rider tends to build the suffering so deep into the series DNA, I feel like it shines through stronger than ever.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepsea

Oh also I feel like there's something about how empathy is a tool in your belt (heh) not your only option. For people like Dr Banno, Evolt, or Dan Senior, they have to be stripped of power or stopped no matter the cost.

For toku series like Kamen Rider though (after Agito), a good number of Kamen Rider villains, most of the powers didn't come from themselves, but from a trinket (and gimmicks to supports). Which would mean to abhor the "human lives are more important" solution I think the heroes should primarily target the transformation trinket they use, make the villains unable to use them again. They kinda do on Masamune, stripping Gamedeus virus from him, but the main concern is the Chronicle Gashat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TokuKnight89

The Riders have become those who have a diverse level of intent, not always predicated on someone's expectations. They don't all have to ride a motorcycle or fight for someone else. Some fight for themselves, and that person may not want to be controlled. Such a person may also be offended at the idea of a big Kaijin Army trying to control or kill others, but this is on a character-by-character basis. It might be controversial, but it is definitely more "real".

However, the core of what a Rider is remains even among those who aren't in it for others. Even if a Secondary or Third Rider is in it for themselves, a Main Rider tends to be in it for themselves in addition to someone else, even if fighting for another wasn't their initial intention.

I have always prefered this approach, not being in black and white morality and 3-dimensional is one of the reasons I follow Kamen Rider. I think Kamen Rider in the showa era didn't truly aspire to create a story like this, just creating a hope and icon for children in a form of heroes beating up evildoers, keeping Kamen Rider identity for the hero side, but later Kamen Rider is still claimed as made for children, but incorporates a proper story, characters, setting, life, and what would they react to such a power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TokuKnight89

As for Riders who try to save another, it's understandable and even goes back to the Showa Era! Saving someone who becomes a monster isn't always possible, but if it can be done, all the better. The monster-conversion process takes many forms and not all of those forms can be undone! There are those who will attempt to reach out because the "monster" really isn't one, just a disgruntled person who's made a bad choice. Some fight others to not only halt their agenda, but as a way of proving to them that they aren't in the right; the Rider Kick is meant to illuminate that person's darkness!

Do you mean becoming a monster as literally possessed, or monster as in demeanor (villains, sociopaths, etc.)? Yeah, this is like one of the hardest task to do ever, to redeem people like that. The worst of these that can be changed are those merely having selfish desire but isn't all evil, which is most of the Riders starting out as an anti-hero, and even then their bad traits aren't completely gone. Other than that, those irredeemable ones will just get stopped by a good ol violence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TokuKnight89

I think a Rider, especially a modern one, is open to interpretation. They are what you want them to be; a multi-layered "Hero" with no singular definition other than being someone who fights to protect their own dreams or the dreams of others!

A multi-layered "Hero" (ideal hero to anti-hero to byronic-hero to nominal-hero, etc.) is a concept separate from Riders used in almost all storytelling, but just that Riders begin to incorporate that as time goes by instead of all Riders being a pure hero who inspires others.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkibaSilver

I mean, it depends on the show. You mention Build, but that definitely feels like a "fighting darkness with darkness" show, which Banjou at opne point basically saysis what he's doing. But I think you've also got a point with your empathy theme, which is where I pull what I think would be the defining theme out - "I've suffered, but I'm going to use that to make sure no-one else has to". You could argue that's a fairly generic theme, but since Kamen Rider tends to build the suffering so deep into the series DNA, I feel like it shines through stronger than ever.

I think Build has a lot of The Value Of Empathy in it, though. The war genre, it can be very Us Against Them, which seems to play into Fighting Darkness With Darkness... but I feel like Build is constantly digging deeper, playing against expectations, and trying to get to the human cost of war, the motivations and sacrifices, the ways that ideology can fade into survival, how empathy is both a liability and the only answer to eternal conflict.

[AkibaSilver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I think Build has a lot of The Value Of Empathy in it, though. The war genre, it can be very Us Against Them, which seems to play into Fighting Darkness With Darkness... but I feel like Build is constantly digging deeper, playing against expectations, and trying to get to the human cost of war, the motivations and sacrifices, the ways that ideology can fade into survival, how empathy is both a liability and the only answer to eternal conflict.

But it also constantly has the heroes doing new, worse things to themselves (the Hazard Trigger, nebula gas overdoses, plus Banjou's entire backstory) just so they can fight on the same level as whatever evil has pushed itself up to. Even up to the very final V-Cinema, it's playing on those same themes, with a surprising mix of both. I fail to see how the two are incompatible, tbf.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkibaSilver

But it also constantly has the heroes doing new, worse things to themselves (the Hazard Trigger, nebula gas overdoses, plus Banjou's entire backstory) just so they can fight on the same level as whatever evil has pushed itself up to. Even up to the very final V-Cinema, it's playing on those same themes, with a surprising mix of both. I fail to see how the two are incompatible, tbf.

Sorry, yes, they are compatible! I didn't mean to suggest that there's only one theme at work for something like Build. (There's a lot!) I was just trying to point out the ways the, I don't know, non-Evol stuff highlights the theme of The Value Of Empathy. The main villain stuff, yeah, there's a lot of emphasis on, like, A Tool Is Only As Evil As The Person Wielding It, which is definitely a part of Fighting Darkness With Darkness.

You're right, though! I didn't mean to imply you weren't.

[AkibaSilver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Sorry, yes, they are compatible! I didn't mean to suggest that there's only one theme at work for something like Build. (There's a lot!) I was just trying to point out the ways the, I don't know, non-Evol stuff highlights the theme of The Value Of Empathy. The main villain stuff, yeah, there's a lot of emphasis on, like, A Tool Is Only As Evil As The Person Wielding It, which is definitely a part of Fighting Darkness With Darkness.

You're right, though! I didn't mean to imply you weren't.

It's chill, I didn't mean to come off so harsh in my words! Obviously, empathy is a huge part of Build - it's why Sento's fighting for Love and Peace and all that.

[Fish Sandwich]

Speaking of Love & Peace, and Die's perhaps somewhat exaggerated idea of what the Showa Era was like, here is an insert theme that played in like half of the episodes in BLACK. It may be relevant to the topic at hand, or maybe I just want everyone to hear Black Hole Message. Who can say? It's a little of both.