[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TokuKnight89

An "Alan-Moore-Was-Right" type of article which isn't making me feel good right now, but it is food for thought at least.

https://comicbook.com/comics/news/al...roes-watchmen/

I do wonder if it's oversimplifying things.

Of course, this is an oversimplification. In fact, if anything, it is a deliberate or accidental omission of fundamentals that causes the whole construct to go in the wrong direction in the first place. Superheroes are not only a fantasy about power and building an ideal world, but also about morality. We root for Batman not because we like the BDSM bat suit, but because he does good things.
In essence, comics are fairy tales for those who consider themselves too cool for fairy tales.
In fact, I would say that Moore's main problem (and that of other comics authors) is a lack of faith in the wisdom of the people. He considers the masses to be a mindless crowd, lemmings running into the abyss. For him, any decision they make is a priori the worst, and therefore he must make decisions for them. Returning to the topic of the site, it is akin to the amorphous society in Geats, which doesn't give a damn about survival games that sound like faces in the sky, even when they are forced there.
Returning to the topic of the site, it is akin to the amorphous society in Geats, which does not give a damn about survival games, proclaiming face in the sky, even when they are dragged there by force.
Also, there are several obvious holes in the article, namely the unfounded identification of superheroes and leaders. I think almost no Spiderman fans would want to live in a world created by this slacker.
There is also an obvious misunderstanding of the difference between strength and power. That is, by analogy with the article, looking at the current situation in the United States, there is a cowardly weakling in power, whose whole life contradicts the ideas that he promotes. And yet, it was he who was raised to the top. So the rise of superheroes to power would lead either to maximum resistance, or to the transformation of superheroes into a ruling elite with minimal differences from the current one.

[EpsilonX]

I don't subscribe to this idea that we're supposed to love something for the early years of our lives and then suddenly start to hate it. I don't see how enjoying comic books as an adult is any different from growing up playing baseball with your dad and then turning around and playing baseball with your kid, for example. The things that we enjoy in our youth do a lot to shape who we will become as adults.

I also don't subscribe to the idea that comic books are only for kids. They're simply a storytelling format - some stories are for kids, some are for adults.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpsilonX

I don't subscribe to this idea that we're supposed to love something for the early years of our lives and then suddenly start to hate it. I don't see how enjoying comic books as an adult is any different from growing up playing baseball with your dad and then turning around and playing baseball with your kid, for example. The things that we enjoy in our youth do a lot to shape who we will become as adults.

I also don't subscribe to the idea that comic books are only for kids. They're simply a storytelling format - some stories are for kids, some are for adults.

Here we are not talking about comics in general, but specifically about superheroics. After all, all the cases when people in reality tried to fight crime (and sometimes even in costumes) have very sad consequences. Well, and let Scorsese be an old greedy grumbler, it is still a fact that due to the popularity of the MCU, cinema, and therefore its viewers, have noticeably become dumber. In the sense, not so long ago, adventure films were about solving all sorts of quests.

[Kamen Rider Lucha]

I think Moore witnessing first-hand how Rorschach, a viscously critical portrayal of fascist ideology, was co-opted by actual fascists radicalized him against all fans of super heroes. He sees us all as comics-gate-adjacent fascist-sympathizers, and while he's right that a large portion of the super hero-consuming populace does use super heroes to support their underlying fascist tendencies, he ignores the larger percentage of us who took away the intended, positive messages from super hero stories.

The thing is... fascists are capable of perverting anything to support their ideologies. I've seen them twist Star Trek, of all things, to prop up their beliefs. Fascists exist, and a lot of them are drawn to super heroes because of their longing for a strongman to lead them to some kind of fictionalized, ideal past. This is true. But super heroes do not create fascists any more than violent video games create school shooters.

All this being said, despite the thesis being interesting, the linked article's argument is very poorly delivered.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

I think Moore witnessing first-hand how Rorschach, a viscously critical portrayal of fascist ideology, was co-opted by actual fascists radicalized him against all fans of super heroes. He sees us all as comics-gate-adjacent fascist-sympathizers, and while he's right that a large portion of the super hero-consuming populace does use super heroes to support their underlying fascist tendencies, he ignores the larger percentage of us who took away the intended, positive messages from super hero stories.

The thing is... fascists are capable of perverting anything to support their ideologies. I've seen them twist Star Trek, of all things, to prop up their beliefs. Fascists exist, and a lot of them are drawn to super heroes because of their longing for a strongman to lead them to some kind of fictionalized, ideal past. This is true. But super heroes do not create fascists any more than violent video games create school shooters.

All this being said, despite the thesis being interesting, the linked article's argument is very poorly delivered.

The thing is that it is in principle human nature to seek confirmation of one's ideas even in works that criticize these ideas. The fans of the Empire in Star Wars are proof of this. Hell, I remember watching Rocky IV with my friends as kids and rooting for Ivan Drago, even though he was shown as a scoundrel.There are actually two forks here. If the work has no direction, then the author should think about why the fascist character turned out to be so attractive. Is it really the readers or did he himself endow him with traits that make this character likeable? If this is an anti-fascist work, then it is obvious that the fascist should not be depicted in such a light that he would be suitable for an icon.There are a lot of ways, but, unfortunately, then you have to be prepared for commercial murders. That is, the condition "The Boys" bribe liberals with their ideological direction, and fascists with the charisma of the antagonists, and therefore rake in money from everyone. Plus, there is such a thing as "opposition". At one time, it was actively used in Soviet cinema by the pro-Western secret opposition.
The essence of this concept is that when making ideologically neutral or even propaganda films, communist ideas/characters/life are intentionally depicted in a disgusting way. If it is done with enough talent, it will inevitably cause imitation, even without ulterior motives. I think this also takes place in modern (or perhaps already past) Western cinema.
I immediately remember the incredible number of movies and shows where there was a female boss, which is supposed to promote feminist ideas. But at the same time, she was portrayed as wrong in most situations and just an unpleasant person, which is why she fueled misogyny much more. And the "woke" Disney remakes were more repulsive to the ideas of subversion and multiculturalism than attractive to them.

[EpsilonX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Here we are not talking about comics in general, but specifically about superheroics. After all, all the cases when people in reality tried to fight crime (and sometimes even in costumes) have very sad consequences. Well, and let Scorsese be an old greedy grumbler, it is still a fact that due to the popularity of the MCU, cinema, and therefore its viewers, have noticeably become dumber. In the sense, not so long ago, adventure films were about solving all sorts of quests.

Thanks for the clarification. I admit, I skimmed a lot of it. I still stand by my points, but after reading some of these comments more thoroughly, I don't think I have enough knowledge or a strong enough opinion for it to be worth contributing any further.