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04-28-2021, 05:06 PM | #491 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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Honestly, I feel like none of the upgrades in Saber really had any narrative or emotional weight until Primitive Dragon. The three-book combos, Jaou, Dragonic Knight, King Lion, X Swordman, some of them looked good visually but they brought so little to the story that they might as well not exist except to sell toys. Rekka glowing and being able to separate humans from Megid was a more meaningful power-up than most of Touma's books!
I will say that X-Swordman feels a lot more meaningful as it coincides with Yuuri having learnt more about the modern world and embracing its ideals which allows him to be a knight himself again, and I do like that quite a bit myself. But the others I couldn't agree more. For a franchise that's had a horrific glut of toys since at least Gaim, Saber is I'd say the season hit hardest by having to advertise so much. Which isn't even anything specific to the writing, I think anyone would have issues with this!
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04-28-2021, 05:46 PM | #492 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 667
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I honestly do get Baron Lemon Energy Arms vibes from Jaoh Dragon. At least Jaoh Dragon is kinda pretty, I guess.
The silver from Jaaku Dragon is what sells the design to me. Jaoh Dragon just looks bland to me, after losing almost all of it. I also would have loved to see Dragonic Knight VS Jaaku Dragon somehow, since they've both got the knight thing going on. I don't want to get started on King Lion DaiSenki. I'm still quite annoyed by it for so many reasons. The Dragonic and Lionic Boosters are some of the biggest wastes of time and money I've seen in the franchise in a while. The last time I ever felt this way was with the Ride Boosters from Drive - which are, coincidentally, the same colors, too. Last edited by Chasing; 04-28-2021 at 06:03 PM.. |
04-28-2021, 05:49 PM | #493 |
King of the Rolex
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Digital World
Posts: 452
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Oh, absolutely -- Dragon Alangina was more meaningful than any of them! I wanted to disagree with this so hard because Dragonic Knight is maybe one of the best Rider designs I've seen in my life... but yeah it and Daisenki got shafted some of the worst I've seen in YEARS. The narrative it debuted in only really called for a quick one-time power-up through like a cheer boost from his friends or whatever and the narrative Daisenki debuted in called for... nothing! And then they were just whatever afterwards.
I will say that X-Swordman feels a lot more meaningful as it coincides with Yuuri having learnt more about the modern world and embracing its ideals which allows him to be a knight himself again, and I do like that quite a bit myself. But the others I couldn't agree more. For a franchise that's had a horrific glut of toys since at least Gaim, Saber is I'd say the season hit hardest by having to advertise so much. Which isn't even anything specific to the writing, I think anyone would have issues with this! Hopefully with Saber doing worse than the past two series they'll dial back the amount of toys in Q1 or the at the very least the "importance" of said toys. |
04-28-2021, 06:08 PM | #494 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 221
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Quote:
Honestly, I feel like none of the upgrades in Saber really had any narrative or emotional weight until Primitive Dragon. The three-book combos, Jaou, Dragonic Knight, King Lion, X Swordman, some of them looked good visually but they brought so little to the story that they might as well not exist except to sell toys. Rekka glowing and being able to separate humans from Megid was a more meaningful power-up than most of Touma's books!
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04-28-2021, 06:14 PM | #495 |
Alias: ZeroEnchiladas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,589
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Dragonic Knight still got better treatment than Shining Hopper, thats for sure.
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04-29-2021, 06:12 PM | #496 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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Fantastic Lion – pretty textbook form debut in my book. Rintarou gets beat to crap by Zooous, we learn about the past of both characters, see Rintarou training super hard to master the Wonder Combo, and then he uses it to go save the day, which includes fending off Zooous. The classic "defeat followed by rematch" formula is especially key here! Dragon Arthur – also debuts in the same episode as Fantastic Lion, but gets its real focus story immediately afterwards, which does a super clever trick by having the whole point being Touma realizing his allies are more powerful than any shiny new toy, cementing the bond between the Riders in an episode that kinda acted nicely like a mini season finale, since the show took the next week off. I really loved this one. Crimson Dragon – The actual objective weakest form debut in Saber. Y'all are only harping on King Lion instead because you probably forgot Crimson Dragon had a debut, since it had the misfortune of being placed within Slash's debut, which naturally means the episode isn't particularly focused on Touma or anything. One of the most egregious examples of Saber's crazy pacing, and it's kind of telling I only started to love this form once it kept sticking around into the second arc. Golden Alangina – Not much to complain about here. Lets Kento complete the Wonder Combo trio after learning to let his friends help him at least a little with his personal problems, allowing them to finally stomp all over Calibur after it was established that even one Wonder Combo was a bit much for him to go up against. "Climactic showdown against major rival character" is once again pretty textbook timing for a big upgrade. Jaou Dragon – Puts Calibur right back up to snuff after that last fight; also thoroughly tied into his whole quest for ultimate power or whatever. Maybe a nice bit of (likely unintended) symbolism that Calibur ditches the mask look after his identity is revealed? All that considered, yeah, still not the best this show has done so far. Dragonic Knight – Hugely tied in with Touma's whole mysterious destiny and being chosen by his sword and Luna and all that, so for all I know, it'll have more weight in retrospect, but like Jaou Dragon, it's mostly just decent taken as is. There's a tough bad guy, big stakes, and a big turnaround, so it's hitting all the notes, but it's maybe not going any further than that. King Lion Dai Senki – The episode does a whole thing where Rintarou is kept on the sidelines so he can swoop in when the other Riders need him most, so again, it's not nothing, but there's not much time spent dramatizing Rintarou's emotions, and he's not waiting on those sidelines for any particularly compelling reason. But guys, it looks so cool! If I may do that apologist shtick a bit, I do think it's pretty appropriate thematically for his character that Rinatrou's big upgrade is something forged by his comrades in the organization, rather than some mystical gift like Touma keeps getting. Even the high tech motif makes kinda ties in to it being made by Daishinji, since Suzune has a similar thing going on. See, there's stuff you can pull from this form if you just look hard enough! X-Swordman – Kurona already made my argument for me, so I'll instead note that this is an interesting case study of Saber's freewheeling approach a lot of these introductions, as most of the dramatic character beats for Yuri happen in the episodes surrounding the debut, rather than the debut itself. Care is put in to build it up gradually, but the Book itself is ultimately a B-plot in a story focused squarely on Touma's development. Great form introduction; not at all textbook. Primitive Dragon/Elemental Dragon – Not going to waste too much time explaining this one. Very straightforward and meaty plot arc, very well-executed. Check the episode threads again if you really need me to gush more about these ones. Tategami Hyoujuu Senki – Really loving this one too the more I think about it. Remember how I said it was a nice choice to have Rintarou's big upgrade tied into the organization he holds so dear? Well they did it again, but it's more than just subtext this time. ...and that's a whole lot of toys, isn't it!? I honestly think (and again, I know this is apologist talk) that Saber might be consciously refusing to try and make every single one some huge character study in an effort to keep some freedom in how it structures the narrative that way. Sort of in the same way Zero-One didn't bother attaching much significance to Shining Assault Hopper beyond it being a tough new form for Aruto, for example. Still though, I think I said a few times early on that while I'm fine with Saber being crazy, I do really hope Toei/Bandai figure out a better balance soon, because if this kind of thing keeps getting more extreme each year, I'm definitely going to hit the point where I'm no longer fine with it. Heck, even specific to Saber, I can't help but notice the show has seemingly finally given up on Brave Dragon lately, and base forms falling out of regular use is one of my biggest pet peeves with recent Rider shows. Oh, and since this whole conversation started with the simple question of Gold or Silver? I'll go ahead and mention I'm firmly in the silver camp too. I don't think you can go wrong with either, but a lot of little things about Jaaku Dragon appeal to me more than its regal successor.
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04-29-2021, 06:41 PM | #497 |
Alias: ZeroEnchiladas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,589
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You know what Fish, I'll agree with you on basically all of these.
Crimson Dragon definitely has the weakest of the debuts. But I still put King Lion Dai Senki down there with it just a bit. But you made me see more of the positive aspects. However to me it just reads as Rintaro: Daishinji I want the new toy Daishinji: Alright, I put it in the oven at 350 for 15 minutes. In regards to how... not weighty it feels. At least to me, like I totally get the idea of, "Oh this is them forging their own based after Touma's" but I feel like Saber's rushed pacing sort of hampered that just a bit. That's just me though. What is a damn crime is them sticking to Elemental Dragon for Rintaro's big arc these past four episodes. It really should have been Dragonic Knight and King Lion fighting against Zooous and the Neko Megid since the only real power needed in that fight was the power the swords held, not Elemental. |
04-29-2021, 06:44 PM | #498 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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Like, I GUESS they're kind of upgrades, sort of, but it's really hard to look at them that way more than one of Zi-O's ride armours or Breaking Mammoth. For one thing as you've outlined, only Fantastic Lion actually had any narrative significance attached to it, and these really aren't that special or significant compared to an actual big upgrade. ... granted, I also may harbor a massive unforgiveable grudge against Crimson Dragon for pulling in a ridiculous amount of appearances pre-Primitive Dragon where Brave and Dragonic could have been used; so that's also effecting my view of things And heck, to count something like Crimson Dragon or Dragon Arthur as an upgrade and not Dragon Alangina? For shame!
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04-29-2021, 06:49 PM | #499 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,481
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Weird thing: I watched saber in a chunk, so it really felt like the build up for Rintaro getting his upgrade came in the episodes around King Lion Daisenki's debut. The whole "we're family" and "I'm only a homosapien" lines come to mind.
Edit: actually hold on.
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04-29-2021, 06:50 PM | #500 |
Fangirl-Type Humagear
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 703
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Fish, I'm sure you're used to hearing this by now, but I love how much throught and analysis you put into this <3
And yeah, now that you spell it out like this, I can't disagree that each power-up did have some amount of emotional buildup and represent a new growth for the character. I could argue that many of those emotional beats would've worked just fine without the rider gaining a new form, but that probably applies to a lot of Kamen Rider in general. I guess my problem was that I forgot a lot of them? And part of that's just on me for being forgetful! Although I do think the sheer number of upgrades makes each one less memorable, especially in Touma's case.
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