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05-18-2022, 10:42 PM | #1141 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
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Sougo! I've mentioned this before, but not having a proper grasp on the kid absolutely soured my experience with the show on the inital watch. I did grew to have some vaguely positive feelings towards him, but those moments were really few and far between in the show proper, the bulk of my positivity on Sougo relying on a certain piece of post-show content. The kid still baffles me at points, but I Get Him Now, so he's bumped up from "eh..." to "alright" in my book!
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05-18-2022, 11:19 PM | #1142 |
Some guy. I'm alright.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Michigan
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TL;DR: I end up being very split on Zi-O as a whole. It's got some really major highs, but also some equally bad lows that leave me mixed on the entire thing.
Zi-O is a show that almost feels like it struggled to find its footing for the entire show? Every act feels like a retool done to try and please everyone, but in the end(based on what fan reception I've come across, atleast), pleased only a select few. As a Power Rangers fan, I am no stranger to this sort of thing. I think I'm one of the few that really liked Zi-O's' early game? Getting a glimpse of what past Rider's' lives might've been like had they never become Kamen Riders made for some really interesting storytelling, and having our cast essentially grow along side those characters made for some nice moments and developments. Plus, the natural charisma of the cast shined the brightest there. From Sogo's' constantly getting catchphrases and poses wrong, to Geiz's' constantly staying guarded to the point of literally wearing a collar 24/7, I was having an all around great time with a show that I had up until then really only heard negative things about, even in this very thread! ...And then Decade showed up. Look, my cheap running gag aside, that really was the point where the natural flow of everything got disrupted for me. Because it was the part where it seemed like the writers felt as though they needed to start adding needless complexity to the narrative, which in turn makes me ask very basic questions that never followed up on, such as: Why does Decade get to keep his powers and memories if his Ridewatch already exists? How did he get a Zi-O card? Why is he allowed to interrupt a coronation? Why is his Ridewatch different from the rest when no other important Rider, like say Kuuga or W, work different? To me these are all very basic things that the show ignores in favor of time traveling rules that are never held consistent. There's of course still good things along the way. I genuinely enjoyed most of the Future Rider stuff(Kikai especially!), what few character quirks were kept were always enjoyable(Woz being the most obvious), and most of the tribute arcs were, if not enjoyable, atleast miles better than their Decade equivalents. But then of course, for all the good, there is the bad, such as Rider Time Ryuki and the ever (in)famously related arc: Yeah, out of all the "development" to come out the cast, the bit I most certainly didn't like most was the show deciding that Sogo needed a sort of "edge" when we already had Oma Zi-O looming on the horizon. Him becoming a massive hypocrite due to the overall message that the season decided to go with didn't help matters either. "Hiryu, it's wrong for you to be so focused on your past, instead, focus only on the now so that way you can make a good future. Nevermind the fact that I have a time machine and have fixed multiple people's' pasts and that if given the chance I would rewrite time for my own benefit. Like gosh man, can't you just get over it?" Whether or not that angle and its execution is bad is of course subjective(as has been discussed with the posts on the Ryuki arc), but for my personal tastes, and what I personally wanted the overarching theme of the show to be? Fell short. The short of it all is that I felt that the characters really suffered for the plot, and it's always a shame when that happens for me. And while I did make my bit throughout the thread be dedicated to characters, as I find them the most important aspect of any story, I do feel that every other aspect also should be taken into consideration as well. Yes, how the Anniversary aspects are handled is also important. Yes, the action, the suit design, the music, the direction, everything is a piece of the bigger picture. It's just that I find characters to be the most important. Heck, I really liked the Armor Time gimmick, and while I get that it's just kinda how modern Kamen Rider works ever since Wizard, I was so sad to see the starting gimmick just get replaced by super modes. I would've gladly sacrificed so many of the suits we got and the Rider Time specials if it meant we got a Ride Armor for every Heisei Rider. I can't really think of anything else to say that I haven't already said in previous posts, so I suppose I'll just it here by saying that Zi-O is definitely a very polarizing show, and I can see why. Personally, I'd say that I ultimately like it, but there are certainly alot of aspects to it that I'm not exactly gonna rush to defend, and as such I feel like it ended up being a rather even-handed experience for me. Thus, I give the show a final rating of 3/6. Oh, and because I do this for every season of Rider I finish, what song did I decide to associate with Zi-O on my Kamen Rider playlist? I ended up going with "Everybody Wants To Rule The World" by Tears For Fears, a song that has been interpreted alot of different ways throughout the years, but I'm choosing to take it almost entirely literally here, and I think it fits what I felt was a big motif for the show for alot of its run. With that, the movie commentaries were alot of fun, and I hope to see you all again soon!
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05-18-2022, 11:48 PM | #1143 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
Zi-O is a show that almost feels like it struggled to find its footing for the entire show?
Every act feels like a retool done to try and please everyone, but in the end(based on what fan reception I've come across, atleast), pleased only a select few. As a Power Rangers fan, I am no stranger to this sort of thing. But, I find it funny, not frustrating or aggravating or annoying. Much like Sougo's remarkable ability to graduate from school without seemingly learning a single useful thing, I think this show's chaotic production and clumsy attempts to reinvent itself are kind of a hoot, in retrospect. That's probably not a good thing! I don't begrudge anyone for writing this show off! But I'm still feeling charitable, so I think its unevenness is a little adorable.
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05-19-2022, 12:42 PM | #1144 |
Kaiju or Hero?
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Even I Don't Know Anymore.
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Zi-O is the first Rider show I followed from the beginning (although, I haven't seen much of the later stuff), it was my first experience watching a Rider show from the beginning on a weekly basis all the way through (again, barring stuff like Geiz Majesty). As far as Rider shows go, this is by no means perfect, but as far as Rider Anniversaries go, I'd say this one might be the best from Rider (unless Revice takes that spot, but I don't feel like it really counts?).
Why say that, when I've not even seen some of those past seasons? Well, exactly because I didn't. This show manages to keep the legacy appearances to minimum knowledge, a bit like Decade, in how the most it'll tell you is the premise and maybe some abridged details from the show, making it pretty easy for a noob like me who has yet to see Kabuto, Faiz, Kuuga, Drive, or Den-O. It brought in as many returning cast as it could, it tried to tell its own story, and might not have struck a perfect landing, but it wasn't bad at all. I enjoyed what this show had to offer, it's not Decade Season II (if people were wondering why I spelled II like that, look no further than one of Zi-O's forms), though sometimes it did feel like that, the cast and themes are completely different from Decade, Sougo being almost like your typical Rider protagonist, whilst Tsukasa wasn't a For-The-Good-of-Mankind kind of hero, I feel like both pulled off what their heroes faced in a way that worked. Tsukasa in finding a place to belong, even when the world was against his existence, and Sougo got to achieve his dream of being a King (if only temporary), but also found something more in the Time Orphans and the people he met along the way. Both embraced their dark destinies, and both went their own way afterwards. I don't regret anything in Zi-O, even if the villain was kind of stupid, the story went convoluted, or lost its themes along the way, it's a show that holds together so many ideas and legacies, but not manage to lose its own identity, even if it couldn't balance it at times, it wasn't a bad show at all. I may not have seen every Kamen Rider show leading up to this season and this show might not have been the best I've seen, for what it was, it was a journey I felt glad to be a part of. |
05-19-2022, 01:03 PM | #1145 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 49 - ?2019 - APOCALYPSE?
The ideal future is the one we all get to live in together. That's it, really. It's not about defeating foes, or ensuring Oma Zi-O never exists. It's creating a world where people are safe to dream of the future they want to see, and given the support necessary to realize those dreams. The fact that it all looks like the Webtoon spin-off of Kamen Rider Zi-O is just a bonus, maybe. It's cute. It's a very cute ending, for a very cute show. Quote:
Geiz'z death scene, for example. The emotion in the scene is touching, and the long-awaited moment of Geiz calling Zi-O ?Sougo? ? with his dying breaths ? was exactly as devastating as you'd imagine. (Are we all crying right now?) But it comes on the heels of a somewhat random Geiz sacrifice, and directly before Tsukuyomi decides that she?d rather wait until after Geiz has been murdered to turn on Swartz, so it all feels a bit tainted. The entire final battle has that same taint to it, with Swartz'z goal of stealing Oma Zi-O's power being thwarted by, like, him not actually being able to do that? It retroactively confirms Swartz'z plot to be even dumber than you could've feared, which is not the ideal note for the climax of a year-long series. It makes the events of the middle of this episode feel arbitrary and irrelevant, an action-packed distraction from anything that makes sense or is worth investing in.
Tsukuyomi's chance to strike Swartz was when he tried to flee, of which happened after Geiz's death. But otherwise, it's a karmic fate for Swartz, as Swartz had been manipulating others constantly, yet he ended up getting manipulated by his younger sister, the person he hated the most, by playing on his universe-sized ego, so she has to suck up to Swartz and thus Swartz would think those who praise him are on his side, as they're pleasing him. But of course, her Rider showing is the definitive female Rider curse, to never properly fight as for now (like Ghost, the female Rider was only sent against the biggest threat), even though she successfully fooled and (literally) backstabbed him, unlike Ora before, the stab probably can be done without being a Rider. You've talked about personal preference before, but yeah they wrote Swartz's downfall to be his ego and pride, other than Tsukuyomi exploiting it above, he had to learn the hardest way that, evil artifacts are not a toy. In this case, Ohma Zi-O's power cannot be stolen or controlled by anyone but Sougo. And their ensuing fight is a good reason that Another Decade cannot do anything to Ohma Zi-O, as Ohma Zi-O cements himself as the strongest Rider on the entire franchise by far and everyone fear him for a good reason, even the endgame villains of the series, including Daguva and Evolt, die only in 1 attack. Though Daguva only used its fire ability and likely didn't go full potential, likely to keep Sougo alive so he becomes Ohma Zi-O, but though the spectacle is good enough, I kinda wish that Sougo takes both himself and Swartz to another world (like Fourze Cosmic's portal, Gaim's Helheim crack, or Ex-Aid's Stage Select) where Sougo (or Daguva and likely Swartz) can go all out using planet-busting levels of powers or something, even if the outcome would be still Ohma Zi-O curbstomping. It's a karmic death for Swartz to be killed by the very powerful creation he created to steal from, and after Swartz killed both his close friends. Quote:
That little breakfast scene with Sougo and Uncle! It could be maudlin and funereal, but it?s warm and goofy and bittersweet and resolute in its humanity. (The bit where Uncle tells Sougo this can't be his last supper, because it?s breakfast!) Just when everything in this show should be preparing Sougo for a death march, the wacky uncle delivers the key to victory, and makes sure that Sougo knows to bring everyone home.
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And then the aftermath, as we?ve wound things back to the beginning, to September of 2018. But it's a better version of the beginning, a future version, where the lessons of the last year are built into the foundation of the world. Where the battles and rivalries of this show get recast as supportive friendships and second chances. Where Oma Zi-O still might exist at some point in the future, but Sougo's support network has never made him feel farther away. Where everyone gets to see what future awaits them.
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Man, Tsukuyomi continues to not be good at decision making and planning, like I get what she was going for here but it did not work out in the long run if I'm being honest. I don't mind this appearance of the Kamen Rider Tsukuyomi suit too much because we are going to be seeing a lot more of it. And compared to say something like Kivala who also shows up last minute, they really make as much use as possible of Tsukuyomi's Rider Suit in future project.
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Speaking of Oma Zi-O, let's start talking about him or rather Sougo 2068 who during these final episodes has made me appreciate him a lot more than usual. And it's also why I really dislike when people boil him down to like a plain Saturday morning cartoon villain in their depictions of him. He's an excellent antagonist though, a well intentioned kid who wanted to save the world, become a King. Shit went wrong, the memory of the Heisei Riders was erased, and all that was left was a large monument that depicted him the person who seemingly destroyed the world alongside 19 other armored random people.
Firstly, while it's true that the Dai Mazines and Kasshin were made by Swartz, doesn't mean Ohma Zi-O did nothing wrong, attacks aren't only Dai Mazines/Kasshin assault, like they're only flies to the strongest Rider in entire franchise so far, Ohma Zi-O did use his newfound powers to establish a so-called military rule by causing worldwide destruction, killing billions and turning earth into a desolate wasteland for him to control what remained of humanity, forcing the survivors to live in ghettos, and he personally annihilates the resistance that was formed to combat him. And it's true that, including for Over Quartzer, Ohma Zi-O does let Sougo act on his own for most part, though he did send minimal influence, like Woz, who Ohma Zi-O recruited to serve as a corrupting mentor to the younger Sougo. Ohma Zi-O does meet his younger self, but it's to motivate him following the same path as him, becoming another genocidal tyrant, what Ohma Zi-O wants is to see which timeline his younger self would destroy and how he would go on about it. Actually Sougo not choosing the path of destruction which leads to Ohma Zi-O fading out from his existence is his defeat, not some noble risking his existence for younger self's sake. Ohma Zi-O's defeated (for now) by having him fade out of existence instead of monster's explosion, just that Ohma Zi-O accepts his defeat well. Ohma Zi-O failed to corrupt Sougo, like how Daguva failed to corrupt Yusuke in Kuuga, with how he planned to let the Ultimate Form's power corrupt him (as black eyed) if he's defeated. E̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶S̶w̶a̶r̶t̶z̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶ ̶t̶r̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶T̶s̶u̶k̶u̶y̶o̶m̶i̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶f̶u̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶s̶h̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶k̶i̶s̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶.̶ Quote:
It's not like our Sougo ever knew the Myokoin family, so does Geiz like have totally unrelated parents now? Tsukuyomi's name was never Alpina? Everybody's suddenly calling each other with honorifics? Honestly, these questions aren't even important, since the most shocking part about all this is that Geiz doesn't have his collar anymore! Someone call Tsukasa to destroy this broken world!
I do tolerate this ending better than Ryuki's though, since at least it's not a return to status quo. Another way of thinking about it is that our Sougo is like Amazing Sougo and he just created the Ultimate Sougo universe or something. Maybe the best way to approach this new universe is to try and dissociate it from the one that created it. However, I still think Build creating World C is the best reset ending I've seen in KR.
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05-19-2022, 02:12 PM | #1146 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,426
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So, Kamen Rider Zi-O.
I am, broadly speaking, not a fan. I will freely admit that I am absolutely one of those viewers that was here for the legacy tributes, not the show itself. Zi-O as a standalone story very quickly wore out its welcome with me. Sougo, admittedly, did grow on me over the course of the story, but he started off in such a bad place, with the whole king malarky, that even at his best I still just kind of tolerate him. Tsukuyomi has slightly more personality than wallpaper, Geiz's constant flipping between "must kill Sougo to protect the future" and "meh, don't feel like it right now" made him very frustrating for me, and while Vanilla Woz could be fun, I found his counterpart to be a constant exercise in lazy writing. The Time Jackers are so unmemorable that I honestly thought they were new characters when I watched the first episode of the Zi-O vs. Decade (or possible Decade vs. Zi-O) miniseries. The concept of Ohma Zi-O is intriguing, but the show's overall story just kind of flails and falls apart. I still think it's more generally coherent than Decade, though. As an anniversary season, I still thought it was a mixed bag. I very strongly dislike the early cameos with the time travel erasure gimmick. In its worst moments, it felt like the show was just bringing back old actors to play new characters. That's a big part of why I think the tributes in the back half were by far the best episodes of the series: they built off of the original shows and tried to tie the characters and themes into what was going on with Zi-O's story. I wouldn't say these episodes redeem the entire series, but they put some really nice bright spots into what I otherwise consider to be a very lackluster, but not terrible show. |
05-19-2022, 02:23 PM | #1147 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
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I don't regret anything in Zi-O, even if the villain was kind of stupid, the story went convoluted, or lost its themes along the way, it's a show that holds together so many ideas and legacies, but not manage to lose its own identity, even if it couldn't balance it at times, it wasn't a bad show at all. I may not have seen every Kamen Rider show leading up to this season and this show might not have been the best I've seen, for what it was, it was a journey I felt glad to be a part of.
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Other than the little breakfast scene, it's shown here as expected, Junichiro can... repair Ridewatches, because it's a clock-like device which is Junichiro's speciality. So... even among the people closest to him, Junichiro's potential is also wasted, as Sougo and everyone opted to keep his Rider identity a secret. As turns out here, Junichiro can practically help out in combat too by taking care of Ridewatches (he previously did that in DenLiner too).
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As an anniversary season, I still thought it was a mixed bag. I very strongly dislike the early cameos with the time travel erasure gimmick. In its worst moments, it felt like the show was just bringing back old actors to play new characters. That's a big part of why I think the tributes in the back half were by far the best episodes of the series: they built off of the original shows and tried to tie the characters and themes into what was going on with Zi-O's story. I wouldn't say these episodes redeem the entire series, but they put some really nice bright spots into what I otherwise consider to be a very lackluster, but not terrible show.
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05-19-2022, 03:23 PM | #1148 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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KAMEN RIDER ZI-O: FINAL STAGE
I was all ready to enjoy a fun stage production of Kamen Rider Zi-O, since I liked both the Zi-O TV show and the previous year’s Build stage show (the latter quite a bit), so imagine the disturbingly loud UGHHH that I uttered when I became aware that this stage show:
So, yeah, this thing was working at a deficit, and I’m not sure it ever really moved into the positive. Even by the lowered standards of a Kamen Rider stage show, the plot in this thing is dumb. Hiryuu has the power of the Quartzers SOMEHOW. He brainwashed Woz and Tsukuyomi SOMEHOW. The Another Riders are running around SOMEHOW. They drop Showa Ridewatches SOMEHOW. Nothing in here feels tethered to any story logic or continuity, making me feel entirely like an adult who is stuck watching children’s entertainment. I like to think of Kamen Rider shows as smart about dumb things, and dumb about smart things. This was just Dumb, pretty much from curtain to curtain. But does anyone care? I mean, the people making this definitely didn’t, and the intended audience clearly didn’t. It’s a stage show, and I feel like the occasions where those are clever (Build) are the exception. Most of them are just 30-odd minute chances to watch suit actors wrestle each other while lasers and smoke machines dazzle a group of children. That’s it. Why pretend there’s some higher art to it all? There’s a part where kids get to shout to rally the Kamen Riders; this is where we’re at. What little thematic work there is ends up being sort of sweet, this big-hearted embrace of Kamen Rider and repudiation of pointless divisions. Showa, Heisei, Reiwa… it’s all just Kamen Rider, so why draw lines? (This message is only for children; adults are totally justified in disregarding decades of celebrated storytelling just because they find the aesthetics nauseatingly janky.) It does it in a charmingly complex display of Heisei versions of Showa guys, and by pointing out that Zi-O’s Heisei-powered cast will still be fighting in the Reiwa era. That gag, the convoluted "Heisei’s Showa Riders" thing, is what I wish this production had more of. It’s pretty straight-faced, all the way through, and I find that uncharacteristic and dull. Kamen Rider Zi-O’s a goofy show, and this stage production only really leans into that energy in the final few minutes. The cast breaking the fourth wall is a highlight, and gets some of the biggest reactions in the entire play. Like, the stage show is a chance to bring a live energy to this franchise, but this show feels choreographed within an inch of its life. (It really doesn’t help that it’s suit actors for about 90% of this thing.) I wanted something that used the live audience and the stage to say something new with the cast and characters of Zi-O, but this show was just Kamen Rider Zi-O On Stage. By some very reduced standards, this thing was fine. A ton of suits, a new Armor Time, a few Legend Rider suits, an actual Legend Rider voice cameo (TAKAYAMA JIN IS FOR THE CHILDREN!!!), and a whole bunch of smoke machines make for an entertaining enough half-hour. But I really hoped for more with this thing. Ah, well. At least Hiryuu was forever-murdered for the crime of loving Showa more than Heisei. That’s winning me over a bit.
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05-19-2022, 03:59 PM | #1149 |
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
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Since this is the end of the Heisei Era of Kamen Rider, I think it's appropriate to repost My Complete Heisei Rider Ranking:
1) Faiz 2) Build 3) Fourze 4) Ghost 5) Wizard 6) Double 7) Kiva 8) Blade 9) Decade 10) Drive 11) Kabuto 12) Den-O 13) Ryuki 14) OOO 15) Zi-O 16) Hibiki 17) EX-Aid 18) Agito 19) Kuuga 20) Gaim There's a lot of stuff I loved about Zi-O. The warmth of the characters, the clever concepts like Miriders, the most enjoyable Tertiary Rider ever, one of the best summer movies, Inoue coming back to write an arc. Honestly, if the show wasn't such a convoluted mess with one of the worst final arcs, I totally would've put it higher up! Similar to Hibiki, while there are shows I like more, Zi-O is still a show I feel strongly about, regardless of whether that's good or bad. Sure, I feel like it could've been a lot better. But like the moral of Over Quartzer, every show is different and yet they're all part of the same package. So I respect this show for celebrating the Heisei Era while also striving to be its own thing. I maintain that Zenkaiger is the best anniversary show overall though! Quote:
KAMEN RIDER ZI-O: SERIES WRAP-UP
He smiles a lot, for a Rider, which was so weird at the start. It came off as flippant, which it sort of was. But then he just kept smiling, and it read as a port in a storm; the one thing you could be sure of was that Sougo was happy to see his friends, and he was happy to get another chance to go on an adventure. (also that cobra plushie you linked to is a literal devil, so don't trust his smile too much!) Quote:
I kinda wish that Sougo takes both himself and Swartz to another world (like Fourze Cosmic's portal, Gaim's Helheim crack, or Ex-Aid's Stage Select) where Sougo (or Daguva and likely Swartz) can go all out using planet-busting levels of powers or something, even if the outcome would be still Ohma Zi-O curbstomping. It's a karmic death for Swartz to be killed by the very powerful creation he created to steal from, and after Swartz killed both his close friends.
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Actually for Tsukuyomi it's both, she's later would be refered as "Alpina Tsukuyomi". Though other than status quo or not (Ryuki's like that as there were no time travel), even Sougo also didn't really relinquish his evil powers here though either like Shiro in Ryuki ending (making use of his power to revert the damages done by his war). Sougo makes use of his power to revert the damages done too and even granting him some personal benefit in giving himself friends on school based on previous friends (and enemies) by that. Sougo here didn't let the damages occur, by relinquishing his Ohma Zi-O power and didn't do anything or such.
The Sougo who created that world and the Sougo who lives in that world aren't the same Sougo though. New Sougo gets the personal benefit of living in that world with all his friends, while Our Sougo exists outside that timeline, the same way Kanzaki exists outside reality. But unlike Kanzaki, Sougo, in all of his iterations, is destined to become Oma Zi-O as long as he lives. It's not a power he can relinquish or run away from. The only thing he can decide about that is how he will use that power. In the case of the finale, that world was screwed due to all the paradoxes being escalated by Another Decade, to the point where Tsukasa admitted the best action was to destroy it, making it similar to Build's scenario. In Kanzaki's case, a lot of people died, but it wasn't a point of no return the way it was for Sougo. So that's why I support Sougo's decision, even though the world he created isn't exactly the way I would've made it.
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05-19-2022, 04:09 PM | #1150 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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There are times when Sougo smiles to feign happiness though, as Uncle Tokiwa scolded him for pretending everything is okay. It's Sougo's coping mechanism, to fool himself and others in to believing it will work out. His optimism has a dangerous side as well, like at the start when he shrugged off the demon king part of becoming a king, since he was more excited about the king part, something that Oma Zi-O was also oblivious too. However, Sougo eventually learned to express his emotions in a more healthy way, like when he refused apple pie due to him grieving for Yuko. I agree that Okuno has a very warm smile though!
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