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Thread
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Kamen Rider Revice Episode 33- "LovKov's Rebellion!" Discussion
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05-07-2022, 12:34 PM
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26
Sh Ranger
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mesnick
Different authors - different morality. Hana/Aguilera is in many ways still a child, incapable of making decisions. She is not as vicious and ossified in her evil as Asakura. And just because she said she wants to die doesn't mean it's her real wish. Rather, banal stubbornness due to their own pride, which Olteka and Giff had previously trampled on well.
It's humorous how you contrast Aguilera with Asakura, since Aguilera's actress is called Asakura.
I don't think we can arbitrarily decide whether Aguilera's wish was real or not. That's undermining her independence, the same as Deadmans grooming her to believe she only had one option in life. It's not like her decision was even that uninformed, as she was briefly shown another way to live. But when that time came, she was resolute about having her honorable battle to the death and that's a choice she made on her own. Showing people other paths is okay and helpful, forcing them down the one you want is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mesnick
A broken promise is also quite unpleasant thing. Hana could well be offended, considering this another betrayal. Even so, she would have survived in the end.
A broken promise is an
unnecessary
unpleasant thing. If a person has no intention of keeping a promise, then they shouldn't make it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KamenRanger1997
Suicide is suicide. There is no glory, regardless of whether it's a fight or not. It wasn't even a real fight anyway since Aguilera wanted to lose. And again if she wants to die in battle, she'd be better off fighting Akaishi, a bad guy who would actually want to kill her.
I respect that you have your own philosophy, but I have mine. I guess it's true that the fight was a sham though, similar to Ikishima Midari rigging gambles in the opponent's favor. A possible solution would've been for Sakura to give an ultimatum as an added condition, to make the fight even and make Aguilera agree to live in the event that Sakura dies instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daikaijuman54
You done me proud Tamaki!
Just curious, what did he accomplish here to make you proud of him though?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DreadBringer
I don't know since when Olteca 'wants to be understood' or something, what he wanted was to make the world his and he had sadistic pleasure in watching others suffer in his evil deeds. Who cares about 'being understood' at that point. Personally I'd not see tragic backstory as redeeming trait or 'valid' excuse for villainy, because actually hardship and trauma can make someone more empathetic and kinder due to how they're more able to understand other people's difficulties and understand what others have been through. The abuse partly explains why he acts that way but doesn't mean Olteca should not be held accountable and responsible for his misdeeds and shift the blame on anyone else like the heroes/others for 'not understanding him' or such. I mean also, just because you see another villain being able to be talked down (and sloppy one at that for Zero One's Gai), doesn't mean it can apply to every one of them, that's generalizing.
Olteca mentioned in his backstory that due to his super genius mind, he grew up being misunderstood by everybody and abused by his jealous father, which is the reason why he became a misanthropist and joined Deadmans. I guess he's another case of Adel, or Daido, or Mika from Kyuranger Episode Stinger, where an innocent character becomes corrupted due to succumbing to despair. Olteca couldn't empathize with others, since there was nobody who shared his experience, not even the other cultists who were ostracized for other reasons. Not denying his evil deeds, but he's still a tragic character who wouldn't have ended up this way if he had been shown more love. Probably the most tragic part was that it looks like he realized too late the value of his friendship with Aguilera and Julio, before he was killed by Gif.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DreadBringer
I don't know why this is 'wrong' for contradicting other KR message, why certain other KR messages or traits here are regarded as authoritative that being different from those makes others 'wrong' or such (and I feel like for some reason you really make something like Zero One authoritative for all KR). Those other stuffs are also coming from humans with own personal tastes and preferences. The messages for both shows doesn't seem to show something really bad, other than you seemingly having personal vendetta against any promise breaking, regardless of context, when Olteca's particularly terrible not necessarily for breaking the promise, but about how he does that by continuing his murder spree of people and gloats about his misdeeds to her, not solely the act of promise breaking alone there.
I'm not saying that KR shows are wrong to contradict messages from other KR shows or anything like that, but if two messages are opposites, then it makes sense that I would lean towards the one I most agree with. Just like the writers who have their own personal preferences, it's the same for everybody else. I'm usually critical of Kobayashi, but I appreciate the story she wanted to tell with Ryuki, about the futility in always trying to do the right thing and the necessity to strive for it anyway. I can't just go from that message to a different one that tells me to embrace the cynicism of impossible best case scenarios and give up on doing the right thing. That doesn't feel heroic to me.
Promises can be renegotiated or absolved, but only on the recipient's terms. The promise maker is still morally obliged to keep the promise as long as the recipient holds them to it. Otherwise, it'd just be an empty word with no meaning. That's why I have little tolerance or respect for people who make promises lightly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DreadBringer
No offense but there's some BS regarding this claim in your part, like you'd demonize those who actually did that, doing the said unpleasant things for the sake of justice and burden it, because of how it doesn't fit the better outcome that you thought can happen, like Kouta. You were also kinda still treating it as hostility from Geiz to promise to kill Sougo when he turned evil in his conquest for his sake.
Are you referring to Kouta killing Kaito? Hmm, okay, perhaps I was hypocritical about that.
Regarding Geiz though, I never had any beef with him and I don't recall demonizing him, just saying his promise with Sougo was made out of mutual respect for each other's determination. Geiz isn't the kind of person who trusts easily, which is a good quality in moderation, so it would've been OOC if they were suddenly best buds. That scene was Geiz giving his arch enemy the chance to prove him wrong, which was a pretty big step for his development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoldenXtreme
This is the thing, there was no "right" choice to make in a morally complicated situation like what occurred with Hana. I felt flexible about the outcome, whether it was Aguilera dying or being saved, because the most important thing is showing that Sakura thought her actions through and picked what she truly thought was best and that she had the conviction to see it through. I'd argue that this is a major theme of the show in general, which can be seen in other character arcs like Hiromi's self-detrimental dedication to heroics and even Tamaki's dedication to assisting Aguilera. Just my take on what the show is trying to convey, it isn't about right and wrong so much as doing what you truly believe in, which is actually exactly how I see Ryuki too.
Fair point, probably the best argument I've seen so far in favor of this episode. The idea that staying true to your belief is more important than halfheartedly doing the "right" thing. It's not enough to make me like this episode or the direction the show is taking, since there's really nothing I can do about the fact that this simply doesn't work for me, but if Kinoshita's intention was to make the viewers feel passionately in either way about what happened, then I guess he succeeded. Thanks for sharing your take.
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