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04-18-2021, 06:10 PM | #791 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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You know, for how much it's seemed at points over these last few episodes that you're practically kicking yourself for kicking this series as much as you have, I kinda think that complex jumble of feelings you're carrying is as appropriate as you could get for Den-O.
But before I dive into that, I do need to tie a bow on my two go-to moves for this thread: first by pointing out that the title for episode 48, with Urataros' big sacrifice, is Urahara na Wakare in Japanese; and second, by just straight up linking you to my whole post about the last three episodes and some of my thoughts on the series as a whole. It's not exactly some thorough analysis, but I think it gets my genuine passion for the show across pretty well. And of course, yeah, like I said in the post I quoted right at the start of the thread, this IS very much my favorite Rider show by Kobayashi. It's not even a close call, and that's insane to me when I step back and think about it, because I can be awful at picking favorites. There should be a voice in the back of my head whenever I type a statement like that second guessing the opinion. Telling me in this case that I owe some kind of loyalty to OOO, or reminding me of what an impact Ryuki left, or whatever else. Not like it's some zero-sum game, mind you, but still, it's unusually easy for me to commit to those words – Den-O is my favorite. The way I put it in those posts, which you've just seen mentioned if you clicked that link, is that something about Den-O is just magic to me, and, over a year and a half removed from that post, I suppose I never have found a better explanation than that yet. It's a series that snuck its way into my heart before I even realized it, and was bound never to leave as soon as I did. My beautiful little fog bank, as it were. That comparison you made is still something I keep coming back to, because it really does say it all when it comes to the differences in how we see this show. I can comprehend why someone would desire more clarity from it, but I can't imagine asking for that myself. Den-O to me, it's a show all about the impossibly fragile yet boundlessly resilient nature of memory. The things we want to hold dear, even when they slip through our fingers, the things we'd rather cast aside, even knowing they can't be undone, and how all of those past experiences can be equally important to create a hopeful future. The whole thing about Time Nonsense... I honestly do see it as a true positive for the show's narrative. Not even something to be merely forgiven or ignored. The amount of screentime dedicated to people desperately chasing after a life that's already gone, or to fruitlessly trying to fit together murky, confused, and incomplete information into something comprehensible... I think it's fair for me to say that's all very much on point, considered plotting for what the series is about, the same way it's fair for you to say it doesn't make for the most entertaining experience as a viewer. But man, man, as fair as that it is for you, I can't pretend there isn't a part of me that wants to come out and say that asking Den-O to do anything else would be actively diminishing its beauty. And, hey, I guess I just did say that, huh? I'm pretty confident after so many of these threads that you'll understand my point there is less about you and more about simply how deep my fondness for this show is. As ever, you've done a great job expressing how you feel, and I don't want to make it sound like I think you did this show dirty or anything insane like that. Your honesty about what you got out of Den-O – whether it was regarding the parts you adored, or the ones you didn't – is very much appreciated. Of course I'm okay with you saying Den-O wasn't what you were hoping for. After all, that's part of what Den-O was all about, right? Things don't always go the way you hoped for, but that doesn't mean the journey was without value.
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04-18-2021, 06:14 PM | #792 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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As for the finale itself, I like it. Not my favorite in the franchise, not my least. I'm not sure what it is, but it feels oddly low stakes for me. It shouldn't, between the destruction of an entire timeline and the armies of Imagin taking advantage of the show's reduced Rider population. We get a big reveal about Hana, Yuuto permanently erases Sakurai's existence, there's a "cheers love, the cavalry's here!" moment with Sieg, of all people... it should feel bigger than it does. It's good, and that Sieg moment in particular was fantastic, but it still feels relatively low key. I think a lot of it boils down to how simple and straightforward the final boss fight is? The Gorenger style bouncing attack is cool and all, but it basically amounts to one shot, a dead Imagin, and then Kai just disintegrates. I don't know. Something about that whole element of the finale didn't really do much for me.
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Man, am I curious to know how all of this would have played out if Hana's original actress hadn't left. I don't know if there would have been any real difference, but I'm also not sure if having a child Kohana made it easier to work her in as Airi and Sakurai's child. Not sure.
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04-18-2021, 06:25 PM | #793 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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It is incredibly funny to me that the thing this thread most got right, was the most insightful about, wasn't even really about Den-O, it was about how Fish and I approach art differently. When you gaze into the Kamen Rider Die Watches thread, sometimes the Kamen Rider Die Watches thread gazes back. Hilarious!
I've always tried to be upfront about how subjective I think art is, and how the last thing anyone can ever do is convince someone that they've experienced art wrong, but it probably bears repeating here, after I've dismissed whole swathes of narrative and given a Kai-esque shrug to attempts at clarification. I totally get what you're saying about the murkiness of Den-O's plot being a positive, even if I can't access that emotion when I watch it. There's a fairytale aspect to Den-O as a series, where things happen because it feels like they should. It's a series that is Evocative in a way few other shows are, and that attribute is always going to be given different values by different viewers. I can appreciate that. That said, OOO is best Kobayashi. OOO is your favorite, like it's everybody's favorite. Please correct your original post.
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04-18-2021, 06:30 PM | #794 |
Some guy. I'm alright.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,465
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Congrats on another season finished, Kamen Rider Die-O.
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04-18-2021, 06:35 PM | #795 |
Warrior of Delusions!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wait, you dont know either?
Posts: 5,827
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He gave them all Deneb candy and they went away. Foolproof strategy.
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Check out my occasional ramblings! https://akibamusings.blogspot.com/
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04-18-2021, 06:43 PM | #796 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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I've... finished!
(I wonder if Momo was kicking himself for not saying that as he faked his death.) (And thanks!) It was a seven-minute slideshow on how to Please Get Along With Yuuto, and the Moles decided that they'd rather turn to dust than spend one more minute hearing about why Yuuto is worth tolerating.
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04-18-2021, 07:55 PM | #797 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,611
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Whatever your verdict for Kai is, please please please watch Ultraman Orb. Hideo Ishiguro came a long way from Kai to Gai in a span of 9 years and it is his best work to date. And it is 25 episodes if I recall. Gai is every Clint Eastwood cowboy but with a funky harmonica, loves public bathhouses and soda pop.
I dunno, her rider stuff is good, but her sentai shows are better. Not perfect but better.
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Last edited by Sunred; 04-18-2021 at 08:04 PM.. |
04-18-2021, 08:59 PM | #798 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 320
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Oh Den-O... What a peculuare series you are.
One of the few that can make me slam my head against the wall because of some nonsense, or one of the, for me, unbearable characters, and ten seconds later I'm balling my eyes out. The show has amazing highs, like a certain talk inside the terminal between Ryotaru and Momotaros, and in general, their friendship, which I even find better than Ankh and Eiji, is absolutely fantastic! Same with Yuto and Deneb. But the lows are abysmal and sadly, typical for almost any Kobayashi show, minus OOO's. I can't stand the three other residents of the Den-Liner with their just annoying character quirks that seem to overshadow them as actual characters. The show lacks a good sense of momentum and the villain, in typical Kobayashi fashion, is a big fat nothing. Granted, none of these problems are as egregious as in her Sentai outings, where these things tend to tank the show for me in general, but still... All that said, I liked my time with this show. It wormed itself into my heart, even if it's a love-hate relationship. And now I want to watch Final Countdown again
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04-18-2021, 09:35 PM | #799 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Whatever your verdict for Kai is, please please please watch Ultraman Orb. Hideo Ishiguro came a long way from Kai to Gai in a span of 9 years and it is his best work to date. And it is 25 episodes if I recall. Gai is every Clint Eastwood cowboy but with a funky harmonica, loves public bathhouses and soda pop.
I'm sure I'll be doing some Ultraman stuff at some point. It's a real blindspot for me (literally no idea what the premise really is, despite seeing it satirized a little in the Kaijumax comic), and once I finish Saber (in 2022) I'll be checking out Sentai and Ultra stuff in-between Rider rewatches. Maybe Orb! Quote:
Oh Den-O... What a peculuare series you are.
One of the few that can make me slam my head against the wall because of some nonsense, or one of the, for me, unbearable characters, and ten seconds later I'm balling my eyes out. The show has amazing highs, like a certain talk inside the terminal between Ryotaru and Momotaros, and in general, their friendship, which I even find better than Ankh and Eiji, is absolutely fantastic! Same with Yuto and Deneb. But the lows are abysmal and sadly, typical for almost any Kobayashi show, minus OOO's. I can't stand the three other residents of the Den-Liner with their just annoying character quirks that seem to overshadow them as actual characters. The show lacks a good sense of momentum and the villain, in typical Kobayashi fashion, is a big fat nothing. Granted, none of these problems are as egregious as in her Sentai outings, where these things tend to tank the show for me in general, but still... All that said, I liked my time with this show. It wormed itself into my heart, even if it's a love-hate relationship. And now I want to watch Final Countdown again Beyond that, yeah, complicated feelings about Den-O! Same! It's not one I can endorse wholeheartedly, but it was a fun show to spend a couple months with. There's some real big wins nestled against some shocking disappointments. Glad it ended up kinda sorta winning you over!
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04-18-2021, 09:55 PM | #800 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,433
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I'm sure I'll be doing some Ultraman stuff at some point. It's a real blindspot for me (literally no idea what the premise really is, despite seeing it satirized a little in the Kaijumax comic), and once I finish Saber (in 2022) I'll be checking out Sentai and Ultra stuff in-between Rider rewatches. Maybe Orb!
Orb is an excellent starting point and it would also set you up to watch the truly fantastic most recent series, Z. 2005's Max, which co-stars Ryotaro's former classmate, is also a good place to start. |
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