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02-19-2021, 07:28 AM | #41 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
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02-19-2021, 08:26 AM | #42 |
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I understand, but you said it yourself, Ryuki and Blade are cult favorites. They're well-received, but are cults. For sure Kuuga is highly regarded, but from what I've followed (cmiiw, again), people's remarks about Kuuga is mostly about praising Yusuke, and sometimes Ichijou or their relationship, or the Kuuga's suit (including its forms, progression, power) but Kuuga's other stuff (other characters like Sakurako/Tsubaki/Enokida/Jean, the joke references like "Jean Michel Polnareff" which combines both JoJo's Polnareff and Michel Polnareff, etc. The one meme that I recall get talked about in good amount is the Kuuga curse), I didn't see them talked much in community. And yeah in Japan 555 is top popularity, though I can't say (if anyone have an info they can tell).
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02-19-2021, 10:43 AM | #43 |
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Oh, and speaking of that screencap, I love the fact that Ryoutarou just rides around on a plain old bike?
It's the same trick that was used in Ryuki, with Shinji's little moped, where I find it really nicely underscores the everyman status of the protagonist that they have something broadly similar to a proper motorcycle, so you can tell they're a Kamen Rider hero if you squint, but with none of the cool factor. I just find it so endearing for some reason. But Shounen and Ryoutarou use them so mundanely. However, I think that can be intentional to contrast the character development later. In Hibiki Episode 44, Shounen runs to school for the first time as part of his Oni training, while Mochida rides a bicycle adjacent to him, expressing confusion. This scene is humorous but it's important to show how Shounen is more confident and determined. It's similar to the development Hibiki gets earlier, from pedestrian to motorcyclist. Quote:
This is as good a place as any to bring up how I'm going to deal with the many (many) pieces of Den-O media. That way if I'm getting something really wrong, y'all can steer me back towards the proper path.
Episodes 1-26 Momotaros Goes Into Eternity I'm Born - The Movie Episodes 27-44 HBV Singing, Dancing, Big Training Episodes 45-49 Final Stage Imagin Anime ...and then probably do stuff like the Farewell movie and Chou Den-O after Kiva, but before Decade. (So much to do between Kiva and Decade!) Pretty Den-O will probably be after Zero-One, I think. There's some other weird miscellany that I might cover, but that all feels like the major stuff. Let me know if I'm either overlooking something or slotted something in at the wrong time!
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02-19-2021, 11:45 AM | #44 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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There are varying reasons of not wanting to fight. As the series established him, he's weak. No point of going to fight if you're too weak to do so, it wouldn't lead to good outcome (and there aren't anyone on the monster's way that time to excuse a sacrifice for instance), don't know what's good outcome for fighting thugs either, but of course Ryotaro has no idea at all about the fantasy elements in his world at that time, he would've thought that he must fight off monsters in his human form (and even then, Den-O Plat is a joke form, and Ryotaro has no idea how to use the Rider powers), but he does want to help other people whenever possible (whenever possible, not by meaninglessly charge to battle just to instantly die), and of course, not every problem is about fighting. Ryotaro's reason to not fight (and being told to do so) is not about moral flaw, I mean being "told to fight" can also happen to be done by morally ambiguous characters, trying to "corrupt" the character refusing to do so, like what some other Riders do to Shinji in Kobayashi's previous series Ryuki.
Chou Den-O is post-Decade, and the Legend Rider movies (like Let's Go) will all get a rewatch thread post-Decade.
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02-19-2021, 11:55 AM | #45 |
Warrior of Delusions!
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I get your comparison, but this feels more like a Ryuki 2, where a ton of things that I consider "Kamen Rider" first show up? Where the lens gets widened? Like, and I'm sure I'll get into this more in the next episode, the idea of a monster being connected to the victim, and that defeating the monster means healing the victim... that is such a Kamen Rider thing to me! That's Ex-Aid, and Wizard, and OOO, and Fourze, and and and. Her evolving the usual monster shenanigans into something that's both thematically relevant on a textual level and also instantly creates a uniqueness to each expression of the routine... KOBAYASHI! So goddamn smart.
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02-19-2021, 02:00 PM | #46 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 2: "RIDE ON TIME”
One of the things that led to me falling in love with the Kamen Rider franchise is its emphasis on helping people. Not defeating villains, or detonating monsters (although those could be a means to an end), but trying to effect a positive change in even a single life. That's a real Phase 2 Heisei thing, you know? Not that the Phase 1 shows lacked it, but it was what the Phase 2 shows were about, structurally. In Ex-Aid, the only way to weaken a Bugster is to find out what stress the monster is targeting, and find some way to address it. It's a show about healing people psychologically, and since it was my first Kamen Rider show, I've always thought of that approach as quintessential. Going through all these Phase 1 shows where people are mostly physically imperiled by a monster, and saving them is mostly as straightforward as detonating a monster, it's had me digging a little deeper sometimes to find what I'm looking for. You'd get some stories with emotionally-damaged guest-stars, of course. That Kuuga one with the kid who can't go home again. The Agito story where Gills teaches a kid to not run from pain. Keiko from Faiz. (Usually kids! Japan's not doing great with youth counseling, I guess! They should maybe not be entrusting the emotional development of a generation to pretty boys who detonate monsters! It's not technically their skill-set!) It's all stuff that focuses in on the Kamen Rider as a protective force, as someone concerned with making sure one person isn't living a life of fear and misery, but the monster is rarely about that. It's a little character study that ends with a monster getting detonated, but that's oftentimes tangential to the emotional stakes. You can weave them together thematically, but the plot is usually Something Emotional that ends with a monster's demise. So, you can imagine my absolute joy at a plot that's all about how difficult it is to live with regrets, and how it's about a monster who leverages that guilt into a way to obliterate a past the victim can't bear to remember. The specifics of the plot, the mechanics of it... not sure it works? It definitely has a cause-and-effect assumption that Japan's infrastructure is as Kamen Rider-dependant as its youth outreach (so no one fixes the vehicular damage in three years?), but since this thing is 100% drilling into Tetsuo's story, I mostly don't care about the possible destruction of Japan. It's a story about Ryotaro seeing a terrible person in pain, and trying to help them. Tetsuo's a violent bully, but even he deserves a little grace, a little relief from pain. Having Ryotaro not completely get what's going on but know that he can still help this guy? I love it. (The fact that Ryotaro only really agrees to fight as Kamen Rider Den-O after he sees a hollowed-out, teary Tetsuo is such an important point, and I'm glad the show made it.) And I love that ending, where Ryotaro is so unmoved by arguments about causality when there's someone hurting that he can help. Giving Tetsuo that little moment of being with his mother as she passes... this show! This is a show with magical trains and cute goth girls and imagination monsters and they told a story about the necessary catharsis of grief! And how it is more important to unburden people from the self-loathing that comes with regret than it is to detonate monsters! This episode was, no joke, what I've been looking for over the last 300-odd episodes of Kamen Rider. It's threading together the physicality of the monster plotting with the emotional stakes of the thematic work, and that storytelling is Kamen Rider to me. A mission to improve one life as a weapon against evil. Agreeing to enter a war against imagination monsters from the future because some bully could be at peace with himself if you do. I am so happy to get this type of Kamen Rider back in my life. THE BAGGAGE CAR -Here's a little section for thoughts I don't want to try and shoehorn into a larger discussion, and/or a way to talk about the non-melodramatic parts of these shows. -I like the physicality of Sword Form. There's a wideness to it, where it's low but the arc is massive. It's not dainty or considered, it's Power and Risk. I think that's a great way of exploring Momotaros' personality. -And, yeah, Momotaros! Love him. Love his feud with Hana. He is trying to be macho in a situation where he is the most cornered character. Such a fun dynamic. -Hana, also great. She's a bit more feisty than I'd've expected, and that's a nice surprise. She walks a line with steering Ryotaro, but still recognizing his autonomy. She's never just, like, ordering him around. It feels like a burgeoning partnership. -The Den-Liner sets... I'd seen them before, in the OOO movie, and they are charmingly cheap. They are the most archaic Showa thing this show has in it, but it's so Let's Put On A Show whimsical that I don't have it in me to run them down. It'd be embarrassing, if it all weren't so goddamn energetic and heartfelt. I wish it were better designed, but like Momotaros, I'm going to ignore that wish.
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02-19-2021, 03:06 PM | #47 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Den-O is the show that set the roadmap for Phase 2. I was just talking about this in regards to Wizard a few days ago, but the pre-Gaim (and some post-Gaim) shows very much follow a formula and that formula was developed in Den-O. I've spent a good amount of time trying to figure out what it is about the Den-O Formula that made the later shows feel so different than the earlier ones. I focused a lot on some of the details like the non-human partners (Momotaros, Ankh, Mr. Belt, etc.) or more aggressive comic relief, but I realized a few months ago what the main difference between the Den-O influenced shows and the early Heisei era is. It's about the structure.
Heisei Kamen Rider has always done two-part episodes. I assume it's easier for the production department to double down on stuff than to scout new locations and build new suits every single week. The big change that Den-O brought is how these episodes are focused. In earlier shows, the monster attack is usually the B plot while the A plot is some aspect of the ongoing story or the continuing character development (not always; sometimes the A plot is a wolf monster trying to steal a sweet new motorcycle). Look at Kabuto, for a recent example: the monster attacks in that show rarely even have stories. The average episode of Kabuto is all about the ongoing relationships between Tendou, Kagami, and Hiyori. Next to that we have some shenanigans with the Hoppers or Tsurugi. Meanwhile, some Worms are doing stuff that necessitates the action scenes. Den-O is the show that shifted the monster attacks to being the A plot. There is a person, that person is being stalked by a monster, the Kamen Rider gets involved in that person's story. Anything else - ongoing storylines, character development, changes in the status quo - those all happen off in the B plot. I find that the Den-O style shows tend to feel more episodic (or maybe bi-episodic?) then shows like Faiz or Kabuto where it felt like more elements carried across multiple episodes. It's not necessarily a bad change, but I generally like having the show be a bit more serialized. At best, the case of the fortnight format can work really well, like it does in W. At worst, it can feel like important elements get sidelined for awhile, like that stretch of Fourze where Kengo almost disappears because the show wants to spend all of its limited B plot time on Ryusei. |
02-19-2021, 03:18 PM | #48 |
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With no new monsters in the second parts, I’ll be spending my posts for them discussing my thoughts on the show so far (at the point you’ve reached).
Ryotaro: I’m not quite as in love with him being vulnerable. Mostly because the guy after him hits a little closer to home for me. Momotaros: Honestly, I think the fact that he’s basically a would-be monster who ends up stuck in the hero role. The time travel: It’s mostly just a gimmick for the final battles. And since most of the victims are teens or young adults, they never really go anywhere interesting, beyond what Toei can do on the cheap. The DenLiner’s battle mode: I can certainly see why a lot of people back in the day (and a few today) thought this show was too much more like Super Sentai than Kamen Rider. Along with a few other things (for now, they only thing I’ll call attention to is the bad guys being suit-only characters voiced by Anime VAs). |
02-19-2021, 04:31 PM | #49 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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Ooh, bonus content! I like this idea!
Anyway, yeah, as Switchblade said, a whole lot of Rider shows would go on to crib Den-O's basic structure, and while I think I've made it abundantly clear by this point that I don't have an issue with the monster plots being... er, well, the bonus content in an episode, you might say, there's a cohesion to how Den-O handles things that I'm very much fond of. Like, a huge part of how much I love Wizard is simply how much comfort I find in the whole Phantom/Gate routine, for very similar reasons to what you laid out here. I never got tired of this formula the way a lot of people did because it just works for me so darn well. I adore when a Kamen Rider's chief motivation for an episode is as humble as helping one person.
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02-19-2021, 04:40 PM | #50 |
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Quote:
Den-O is the show that shifted the monster attacks to being the A plot. There is a person, that person is being stalked by a monster, the Kamen Rider gets involved in that person's story. Anything else - ongoing storylines, character development, changes in the status quo - those all happen off in the B plot. I find that the Den-O style shows tend to feel more episodic (or maybe bi-episodic?) then shows like Faiz or Kabuto where it felt like more elements carried across multiple episodes. It's not necessarily a bad change, but I generally like having the show be a bit more serialized. At best, the case of the fortnight format can work really well, like it does in W. At worst, it can feel like important elements get sidelined for awhile, like that stretch of Fourze where Kengo almost disappears because the show wants to spend all of its limited B plot time on Ryusei.
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