|
Community Links |
Members List |
Search Forums |
Advanced Search |
Go to Page... |
|
Thread Tools |
03-22-2022, 03:24 PM | #21 |
Dai Shogun
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 7,525
|
Quote:
People are speculating based on the 2 photos of Demons alongside Jeanne and Holy Live in the preview shots on https://www.kamen-rider-official.com/revice/28
Quote:
... And I kind of hate it already |
03-25-2022, 12:59 PM | #22 |
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2,089
|
Quote:
Quote:
Olteca and Demons parted ways again faster, with Holy Live being outright stomping him in a fight, though taking a while for Holy Live to put down Demons, as Demons did punch Holy Live, but it had no effect. Other than that, Olteca's even more fleshed out in this episode, and it's nice that even a purely evil villains got this without giving them redeeming traits when Olteca displayed his nihilistic worldview like him thinking promises are meant to be broken or that he thinks happiness can only be gained from sacrificing others, to psyche out Daiji killing Kagerou before. I'm one of those that hoped Olteca won't be redeemed, and now he's shown to have a dark kind of backstory too that his father abused him due to being a freak via being a prodigy. One of the worst instance of "redemption" in Gai from Zero-One had the series using father abuse (and not as bad as this) acting as it's the only reason Gai treated everyone terrible and that the daddy issues alone are fully sufficient path for redemption, and I hope Olteca's backstory involving father won't be used like that.... as Olteca goes even further in his cruelty, using Giff ViStamp on a young child this time. Otherwise I predicted about Olteca mass turning people into Giftarians as a sacrifice for Giff in the preview before. I don't know how did those people get unconsious though. Now there goes the chance to kill Olteca easily (like when Aguilera worked with him again) as Giff protects him when Holy Live attacked him, and his presumed evolution in preview. There's also a tease of Olteca and Akaishi breaking apart too.
Quote:
It seems that even Yukimi had a bit of a selfish going with the past that she wanted to keep the family's happiness thus she kept Genta's backstory a secret from everyone. This can be the keeping secret to honor Genta type, but this is also the keeping secrets to keep people she loves happy, the "doing what's best for them in their mind" type, which can remind me of certain characters.... obviously if it's really Yukimi being in the wrong, then she gotta apologize for keeping secret.
__________________
心 と 刃 |
03-25-2022, 04:12 PM | #23 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
|
Quote:
Olteca is human though, right? He doesn't have his Driver or his Giftex form, so Kamen Riders can't in good conscience kill him when there might be a way to spare his life. After all, Ikki's and Daiji's agreement to share the burden only applied to Giftex, before Ikki obtained Volcano Rex's power to save them. Regarding Olteca's capacity for redemption, I can still see it happening, especially now that his tragic backstory has been elaborated on. His father was an a**hole for sure.
What I perceive as double standard here aside, I'd hope that this shows that tragic backstory here also can be used to flesh someone (him) out, to show where you can see how a character got to where they are, without downplaying their crimes or the consequences (as if those can be written off just by a sob story or something). Also without Olteca being killed if he's a human but putting him in a position that he can't harm anyone (he's teased to get upgrade next episode anyway). Talking as if Adel is worse than Olteca or something.... Maybe he gets forgiven because though he did some horrible acts, he didn't reach Olteca's or other irredeemable villains levels' yet? Those irredeemable villains being people like Daguva, Ouja, Kitazaki, Minami, Mishima, Maki, Ryoma, Banno, Masamune, Evolt, Namba, Swartz... People actually like if a redemption story is handled well, such as Alain's, the complaint about Gai is about how forced, late, and rushed his 'redemption' was, not about a redemption going on. Actually I quite wonder if the 'redemption' is related to executive meddling or such, and they wanted to make Gai as despicable as they want, with ever escalating crimes in scale and spitefulness, and likely intending to make him as an irredeemable villain. While KR should strive to be heroic and teach good morals (a̶n̶d̶ ̶I̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶v̶i̶l̶y̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶a̶g̶r̶e̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶e̶s̶s̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶R̶e̶v̶i̶c̶e̶ ̶e̶p̶.̶ ̶2̶3̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶x̶i̶c̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶l̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶e̶), if they want to make Gai redeemable it can be done better not just on the redemption part but on the whole show run.
__________________
The most complete non-wiki encyclopedias for Kamen Rider series (currently only found Ryuki and OOO's). |
03-25-2022, 05:32 PM | #24 |
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2,089
|
Quote:
No offense but this is an even more blatant double standard between minor and major characters. If it's minor character doing fucked up things like Olteca's dad; then Burn Him Down? But if it's a major character doing fucked up things like Olteca here, far excessing being an asshole his father did; then it's not ok to fully condemn him? While it's true that Kamen Rider can't kill him if he's only human, it's due to them being living being (and human being weak thus it's not necessary) and not because there's good in him as a human? If it's acknowledged that paying evil unto evil is wrong, while the "paying evil" part is wrong but the "unto evil" part would still be there? No need to elevate someone (even a bit, if it's regarding Olteca, of treating as redeemable... while he goes escalating his crime further by stamping a child) to justify not killing them (it also happened in Tennoji for Blade, after he's reverted back to normal human, he had no redeeming qualities with others not being pleased of him being finished by Kanai, due to human but not due to there's good things about him, not about forgiving).
In Tennouji's case (I like how I can talk about that now), it's not really fair for the Riders to project moral standards from their own human culture on to an Undead with no inclination to care about human life. I guess it could also be argued that Tennouji stopped being a human when he merged with an Undead. Quote:
Talking as if Adel is worse than Olteca or something.... Maybe he gets forgiven because though he did some horrible acts, he didn't reach Olteca's or other irredeemable villains levels' yet? Those irredeemable villains being people like Daguva, Ouja, Kitazaki, Minami, Mishima, Maki, Ryoma, Banno, Masamune, Evolt, Namba, Swartz... People actually like if a redemption story is handled well, such as Alain's, the complaint about Gai is about how forced, late, and rushed his 'redemption' was, not about a redemption going on. Actually I quite wonder if the 'redemption' is related to executive meddling or such, and they wanted to make Gai as despicable as they want, with ever escalating crimes in scale and spitefulness, and likely intending to make him as an irredeemable villain. While KR should strive to be heroic and teach good morals (a̶n̶d̶ ̶I̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶v̶i̶l̶y̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶a̶g̶r̶e̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶e̶s̶s̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶R̶e̶v̶i̶c̶e̶ ̶e̶p̶.̶ ̶2̶3̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶x̶i̶c̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶l̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶e̶), if they want to make Gai redeemable it can be done better not just on the redemption part but on the whole show run.
Sakuragi Nachi did say he wanted Gai to become hated on the same level as Kusaka and considered such hate to be praise. Even after his redemption, it's not like he's suddenly a totally different character as his big ego mostly stays the same, but now he's good and willing to admit the error of his ways. The characters still take a while to warm up to him after his apology, so they really make him work for that forgiveness the same way the viewers do. There were some hints to his tragic backstory, like him often calling Isamu a stray dog, which is symbolic of his affection for Thouzer and how Gai himself had strayed from his dream. Unfortunately, it was probably rushed due to you-know-what screwing up the production that year.
__________________
心 と 刃 |
03-26-2022, 05:54 AM | #25 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
|
Quote:
I never said that Olteca's father should be burned down or anything like that though, just that he's an a**hole. I don't think he deserves to die either. If anybody does wish death on him, then yeah, I agree that would be a double standard. Same goes for Gai's father scolding his son for any imperfect results. They're terrible parents, but I think they should still be allowed to live, at least. For not killing humans, yeah, the goodness of humanity isn't applicable in this scenario, but it's just the innate value of Olteca's human life in general that Kamen Riders typically fight to protect. I admit, at this point in the show, the "unto evil" part of the equation is still in effect, as Olteca has yet to show any sign of changing. So my talk of his potential redemption is a hypothetical and separate topic.
Quote:
I mean, Adel did commit patricide/regicide, attempted fratricide, frame his brother for patricide/regicide, murder Ryu and brainwash a lot of people in to submission, including his sister. If his acts don't put him on the same level as Olteca then he can't be that far behind. Like where do we draw the line? Is it quantifiable when a villain becomes irredeemable or is it a matter of personal perspective?
But otherwise, this is overall YMMV, but there are places where you can discuss drawing the line, or the villain quantifying, something like TVTropes' complete monster cleanup or similar one in pure evil discussions of villains wiki. I won't use personal perspective though.... because that can likely focus on deeds committed on major characters more (and yeah... family tend to be major character like Adel's above) or tolerate entertaining bad deeds that are actually worse than the more annoying bad deeds (like mass murdering which can ooze strength, compared to someone being a smug and making their face punchable). Personal perspective also can place annoying assholes as much worse than villains. Quote:
Sakuragi Nachi did say he wanted Gai to become hated on the same level as Kusaka and considered such hate to be praise. Even after his redemption, it's not like he's suddenly a totally different character as his big ego mostly stays the same, but now he's good and willing to admit the error of his ways. The characters still take a while to warm up to him after his apology, so they really make him work for that forgiveness the same way the viewers do. There were some hints to his tragic backstory, like him often calling Isamu a stray dog, which is symbolic of his affection for Thouzer and how Gai himself had strayed from his dream. Unfortunately, it was probably rushed due to you-know-what screwing up the production that year.
But otherwise, Olteca's father did much worse to him than Gai's father did (Gai's father is the Asian parents' bad stereotype, overly harsh but relatively more 'normal'/'mundane'), and it's used as Olteca further escalates his crimes instead here. If it'd be rushed at that point then just don't do it (the redemption), or the mistake is the production not bringing that up at Gai's buildup instead of him at late. And like human Olteca here, it doesn't need to be done by killing Gai to finish the job even if he's not redeemed. Even as a 'lesson' as per KR teaching morals, it would be a bad idea to use Gai's one as an example. Non-believable ones can instead drive them away the concept of redemption as it'd seem too ridiculous. A redemption done well would be praised like Alain's, no one criticizes that despite Ghost's reputation (Adel's "redemption" also can get criticism like Gai's at times btw, but again, not for Takeru or his family's characters there).
__________________
The most complete non-wiki encyclopedias for Kamen Rider series (currently only found Ryuki and OOO's). Last edited by DreadBringer; 03-26-2022 at 06:14 AM.. |
03-26-2022, 01:27 PM | #26 |
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2,089
|
Quote:
Burn Him Down was more of an emphasizing but I probably could've picked a better word yeah, my main point was about how if it's a minor character then their actions are (properly) emphasized more mercilessly and if it's major character then no matter how severe their actions, far more than said minor character, it's about emphasizing pity for them instead (actually there's an implication that Olteca's father abusing the mother too for "they're" terrible parents part). Granted that minor character would have less fleshing so their story isn't known, but still it gave me that vibe before (but you'd view it as separate topic for the redemption) to talk about pity for Olteca here or implying he may love something, compared to more merciless take to his father.
Quote:
There are many other villains that aren't on irredeemable level in the franchise too, but still really nasty, like Tiger, Orchid Undead, TheBee Kageyama, Kai, Saeko (.. both Lucky Clover and Sonozaki), Kazari, Ora, etc. I'd think Adel's at best (worst) there, but not outright on the irredeemable ones like Banno's level (and Olteca's). To me targeting family there is terrible but it'd feel like targeting specific people that stands in his way (to usurp the throne) rather than indiscriminately which I feel is less worse. And yeah he did brainwash a lot of people, but to me it'd be scale-based (his power allowing him to affect more people), and it's like those villains who has ruling the world as a goal (though in Adel's case, becoming the world), and that's a mainstream goal but it won't make them irredeemable by default.
Quote:
But otherwise, Olteca's father did much worse to him than Gai's father did (Gai's father is the Asian parents' bad stereotype, overly harsh but relatively more 'normal'/'mundane'), and it's used as Olteca further escalates his crimes instead here. If it'd be rushed at that point then just don't do it (the redemption), or the mistake is the production not bringing that up at Gai's buildup instead of him at late. And like human Olteca here, it doesn't need to be done by killing Gai to finish the job even if he's not redeemed. Even as a 'lesson' as per KR teaching morals, it would be a bad idea to use Gai's one as an example. Non-believable ones can instead drive them away the concept of redemption as it'd seem too ridiculous. A redemption done well would be praised like Alain's, no one criticizes that despite Ghost's reputation (Adel's "redemption" also can get criticism like Gai's at times btw, but again, not for Takeru or his family's characters there).
__________________
心 と 刃 |
|
TokuNation News & Rumors |
SH Figuarts BoonBoomger Red |
Hasbro Licenses Power Rangers Toys to Playmates Toys |
Discotek Media Licenses Mobile Cop Jiban |
What's going on with CSM? |
Ultraman Arc Trailer |
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:59 AM.
|