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05-14-2022, 04:45 PM | #1081 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 47 - “2019 - VANISHING WATCH”
There’s a thing we do, at the comics shop I co-own. If someone asks how a book is, and you don’t like it, you don’t say “It’s bad.” Bad’s objective, and unhelpful. Art’s subjective. It’s better to allow for that subjectivity by saying something like “It wasn’t for me.” Saying it that way acknowledges that your own personal likes and dislikes might’ve colored the experience, and someone else might take more out of it than you did. This episode wasn’t for me. Beyond the innate pleasure of seeing Tsukasa and Kaito be toxic and charismatic, I’d’ve happily skipped this installment of Kamen Rider Zi-O. The character-driven details we learn are enormously unhelpful and poorly staged (that kid who played Teen Swartz is maybe running neck-and-neck with Ryuki’s Shiro for Most Wooden Performance Of All Time), while the plot details are baffling in their disarray. Tackling the second one first, because that’s how unnecessarily convoluted this series has gotten: You can do a multiverse story, or you can do a time travel story. You cannot do a time-traveling multiverse story. This was a show where characters met Kamen Riders by traveling back in time, or by meeting them in the modern day. Now, at the eleventh hour, we’re told that this has really been a multiverse story, where Sougo’s been tricked into leaving other worlds defenseless by stealing their Rider’s powers. It– he met Shouichi by going to his restaurant! Sougo got jumped by Takeru! They weren’t constantly going to other worlds! You can’t have a show where both the past and the future are in flux, because a) it means that you can’t follow the logic of any two scenes; and b) it means your metaphor is nowhere. The whole point of this show, as evidenced by Sougo’s many (very good!) speeches is that our ability to value our past should always be in balance with our hopes for the future. We can’t risk falling into the comfort, or despair, of our pasts. We need to use that history to envision a better future, and then work daily to make it the present. If every single story is now some alternate reality that never worked for this show’s timeline, I don’t even know what this show is trying to say. Because, we already did a show about disparate realities and the Kamen Rider who protected them ten years ago. It was called Kamen Rider Decade, and I know this show has heard of him, because he’s in this episode. I will probably never understand why this show opted for an endgame that might as well have only featured Decade and Diend, and I honestly don’t care to puzzle it out. It’s a weird choice that muddies an already-disjointed narrative. And, outside of a perplexing endgame, there’s really nothing else here. The “emotional” content is just Sougo and Tsukuyomi returning to the Misery Suburbs of 2058 to get some hard evidence regarding Swartz’z most-recent absurd claims, and I was actually excited about this plotline at first. Team Zi-O has been almost permanently reactive in the series arc, so a more serious Sougo opting to investigate a wild claim instead of accepting it at face value is a nice development! Too bad there’s nothing substantial waiting for him that we either didn’t already know, or couldn’t’ve surmised. Swartz is – are you sitting down? – a guy who cares more about power than protecting his sister. I know! Stunning! Well worth the trip! Literally everything about his relationship with Tsukuyomi is stuff the character already told her several episodes ago, so I don’t know why the show would waste time reiterating it. The info about how Swartz is planning to destroy everything is new, but it also makes zero sense. Swartz’z plan is to combine all worlds into one, and then destroy them. (I don’t… why would his be left? Why does it matter how many timelines exist? Why is any of this happening, and why would it matter to his timeline if he’s not around? Couldn’t the more powerful Alpina keep that timeline intact?) It’s a ludicrous explanation from this show, because the very first scene of the very first episode contradicts it. Oma Zi-O exists in the future of Sougo’s world. If Sougo’s world is destroyed in 2019, Oma Zi-O and the Misery Fields of 2068 can’t exist. Even allowing for the idea that Swartz’z plan negates that potential future, that future only exists because of Swartz’z plan. It– none of this makes any sense. (My favorite Nothing Means Anything moment in this episode was Kaito using the Another Zi-O II Ridewatch to turn back time and revive Tsukasa, despite the terrible consequences of using it… instead of Sougo using the actual Zi-O II Ridewatch to revive Tsukasa with zero consequences. Like, what the complete hell.) There was nothing for me in this episode, beyond the tawdry nostalgia of guest appearances. (Fun to see Chase again, at any rate.) I said at the beginning of this thread that the stuff I care least about are the anniversary elements, so let that help you understand the depth of my disappointment. The exploration of the series arc was horrifyingly incoherent, while the character development was facile and obvious. Exhausting to see a show so dedicated to evaporating all of my goodwill.
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05-14-2022, 05:03 PM | #1082 |
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Posts: 1,290
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KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 46 - ?2019 - OPERATION WOZ?
Half of this episode was absolutely fantastic. There?s a fleetness to the Rescue Geiz plan that?s refreshing and exciting; a heist-y oasis of clever plotting and clear consequences. Characters get used in unpredictable ways for action sequences that rival this show?s best, while keeping the narrative core personal and emotional. It?s an All Hands battle to save a teammate, but it?s also a chance for Geiz to confront how his outlook and his mission have changed over the last year. Genuinely thrilled over how precise and smart the first half of this episode was. Quote:
And then we get to the whole What?s Swartz Really Up To part, and I could see the wheels coming off of this whole goddamn series arc, second by second. It?s not that it?s dumb, exactly. I don?t know that it necessarily contradicts anything we?ve seen in this season, but folks can certainly shout out things I?ve overlooked. It?s fine, as far as the details of Swartz?z established motivation are concerned. Him wanting Sougo?s power to be the King of Time or whatever? Sure, fine, okay. I don?t know that it creates additional tension to the earlier part of the show, when the Time Jackers were like How About This Rando every other week, but it doesn?t break the show or anything.
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The problem is that it continually introduces new problems for the characters that only come from Swartz?z monologues, and only seconds before they?re relevant to the plot. We aren?t in an endgame that the show has been building to since the first episode, despite the Time Jackers being around since the very beginning of this show. We?re getting some random scheme of Swartz?z, with an out-of-nowhere stipulation to complicate things. The idea that Sougo can?t destroy Swartz without also erasing Tsukuyomi?s timeline? what?! It?s like saying Sougo can?t eat a bowl of noodles without Woz dying. Why? Says who? Since when is Swartz responsible for his entire timeline? If this was a sword hanging over our heroes? heads, why in the world wouldn?t the show want to tell us sooner? Why throw it at the viewer this late in the story?
Dramatically, it feels like the story has whatever rules and stakes are necessary for the current conflict, and that sucks. That sucks real bad. I?m not saying the superhero show about time travel needs bulletproof causality or unbreakable rules for pseudo-science, but you can?t just drastically alter the stakes by having the villain go Oh By The Way. It feels unfair in a way that flimsy Ridewatch mechanics don?t. It makes Swartz feel cheap, and that?s literally the last thing you want your season-long villain to come off as.
But other than that, for the 3rd choice above, it explains how Sougo can become Ohma Zi-O, in all the previous loop, it turns out that Sougo becomes Ohma Zi-O due to being forced by Swartz to keep his friends alive. This kind of invalidates the development Sougo got before to grow out of himself becoming genocidal dictator though like by accepting his dark side, but as it's established before about the damages and loop Geiz and Tsukuyomi can do by time travelling stated by Aqua, so it's implited previously Sougo took 3rd choice before, and always did that in multiple iterations of the loop before too. Quote:
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Sougo did use time travel to save Makimura before destroying Another Ghost though, so even if it wasn't Heure's intention, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that Heure is part of the reason why Makimura survived when he would've died originally. I guess I was just using "antihero" as a synonym for selfish, since Heure is a pragmatic person similar to Evolt, so he won't do something evil if there's nothing to gain from it, when doing something good might better serve his goal in the long term. In his truce with Woz, that was an "enemy of my enemy" scenario.
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The most complete non-wiki encyclopedias for Kamen Rider series (currently only found Ryuki and OOO's). Last edited by DreadBringer; 05-14-2022 at 05:08 PM.. |
05-14-2022, 05:06 PM | #1083 |
Some guy. I'm alright.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,417
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Gonna say it here, the only reason half the stuff in the final six episodes of Zi-O even happens is because this is the Decade Arc of the show. And despite how I've read many a fan calling Zi-O "Decade 2" these two shows, both in plot and in style, kinda don't mesh well together at all.
But yeah the plot is completely screwed at this point, and the only real personal enjoyment I got out of this episode was them (inadvertently or otherwise) saying that Decade's' entire premise/plot structure is bad and shouldn't be followed.
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05-14-2022, 05:24 PM | #1084 |
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Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 2,551
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So basically, this episode is saying that Over Quartzer is Schwartz’s fault. Because Heisei wouldn’t be a mess if he hadn’t tried to combine 19 worlds into one. Pretty much a metaphor for fans who try to group all of Heisei into one universe (An idea that’s always had problems, especially since none of the shows at all attempt any consistency with each other (Kabuto’s whole premise is that a place we’ve been visiting regularly since 2000 got nuked to hell in 1999. And that’s not getting into how Drive starts having characters arrive from America in the crossover with Gaim… which means that they should be coming and going from a radioactive wasteland). Plus very few of the crossovers are actually necessary to the stories of their series (Megamax and HeiGen Final being the only exceptions I can think of), which is especially apparent in how Heisei Generations drops a big reveal casually, has Emu forget it and the the series makes it a far bigger deal of the same reveal later on.
Though I will say, I prefer Schwartz as a villain to most of the post-Gaim villains, (save Ghost’s), in that he has a plan that seems logical given his background (I still do not get why the CEO of a game company wanted to conquer the world) and an actual reason behind his plan (which far too many of those shows relied on to V-Cinemas for). And now, for two final Compare and Contrasts. For the series that is, there’s still a whole set 5 worth for me to do (covering ReiwaGen and Next Time: Geiz) Schwartz’s ultimate plan is basically a deliberate version of Decade’s main premise. Whereas Tsukasa was unconsciously merging the worlds together, and was working to restore them by fighting the Riders so that they’d exist forever in people’s memories, Schwartz is deliberately destroying those worlds, and the Riders native to them, purely to save his own, for his own selfish reasons (since if he doesn’t have a world, he has nothing to rule over). Kaito as Zi-O II… erm, II is the opposite to Sougo in that he steals stuff from random Riders purely to say he owns it, whereas Sougo gets the Riders to give him their powers through personality alone. Also, I can’t really fault this episode, it’s got Zanbat and the Formula Cannon in it. Only 2 pages left until the end of the world. |
05-14-2022, 05:27 PM | #1085 |
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2,101
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KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 47 - ?2019 - VANISHING WATCH?
Swartz?z plan is to combine all worlds into one, and then destroy them. (I don?t? why would his be left? Why does it matter how many timelines exist? Why is any of this happening, and why would it matter to his timeline if he?s not around? Couldn?t the more powerful Alpina keep that timeline intact?) It?s a ludicrous explanation from this show, because the very first scene of the very first episode contradicts it. Oma Zi-O exists in the future of Sougo?s world. If Sougo?s world is destroyed in 2019, Oma Zi-O and the Misery Fields of 2068 can?t exist. Even allowing for the idea that Swartz?z plan negates that potential future, that future only exists because of Swartz?z plan. It? none of this makes any sense. Quote:
(My favorite Nothing Means Anything moment in this episode was Kaito using the Another Zi-O II Ridewatch to turn back time and revive Tsukasa, despite the terrible consequences of using it? instead of Sougo using the actual Zi-O II Ridewatch to revive Tsukasa with zero consequences. Like, what the complete hell.)
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And by that logic for unwittingly saving Makimura being good (it's Sougo being sharp enough to take a 3rd option between Heure's sadistic choices), are Shockers (or anyone similar, basically many villainous individual/organizations because KR theme is using superpowers from evil for good) good because they can create the birth of Kamen Riders, from their inhuman experiments?
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05-14-2022, 05:28 PM | #1086 |
Precure enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Amongst the Cosmos
Posts: 304
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Episode 47!
-Chase!! My boy, my friend!!! A last-minute bone to throw for Drive fans who didnt/couldn't see Over Quartzer at that moment, I suppose? -Glad to see another go "Hey wait isn't this just Decade????" when seeing this episode. Like, the whole vibe of the city reminds me of that one sequence of Natsumikan running in Episode 1, just a lot more clunky? I thought Swartz was gonna pull a Decade(as in the destruction of all will lead to a rebirthed world of sorts that Swartz could be the king of, or something), but like, why would destroying everything else guarantee their world's safety? Is it like freeing up space on a hard drive or something? -Kaito immediately coming in and firing shots at Swartz, reviving Tsukasa before attacking him.....Nobody's allowed to touch a hair on Tsukasa'a head except him, after all! -Uh, might as well take a shot at untangling the multiverse mess? Begin by making a hard assumption that we're still in the realm of time, and not any of that space stuff. I think, early on you could conceptalize that the timeline was a single line that people can make alterations to, hence Ridewatches just earsing a Rider(by altering the past) as well as the Future Riders(altering the future) But if we assume, that when a Ridewatch is made, the timeline *actually* splits in twain: the one with Sougo and friends, and one where the powers of that certain Rider disappeared but not the actual person, then Swartz's whole droll makes tiny bit more sense? Maybe? Potenially? -However, the whole Blade-Den-O plots just like, throw all that all to the side? If you want to continue believing the "splits", then we assume that...um....*squints at notes* (When Time Nonsense gets out of hand, simply smile and say "it's a space-time disortion" to get out of explaining things) space-time disortions are causing timeline splits to become uneven or even straight up not happen, hence leaving elements untouched. That makes sense! (Of course it doesn't!) (Apologies in advance if your brain melts just a bit reading the above 2 paragraphs, I happen to actually be a bit of a fan of sci-fi stories w/ fun time shenagians and wanted to see if I could make heads or tails of any of this. Everything obviously falls apart when tackling Zi-O's Time Nonsense from any angle because they're changing the rules up every 5 episodes so we can get better fanservice!) -Anyway, yeah. I thought i was mistaken in my inital memories of the show but the show's plot does kinda fall apart at the seams, if you think about it for a second. Wouldn't be an issue at all for me if we got some good character moments to distract from that, but unfortunately that isnt the case here. |
05-14-2022, 05:30 PM | #1087 |
Alias: ZeroEnchiladas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,580
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So all this talk about Sougo and the others crossing universes the entire series? Nah that's not what they're saying. The multiple worlds reveal does confuse a lot of people, but that's like at first until you realize the point of time that Young Swartz is in and what he hasn't specifically done yet (hint hint 2009). I'll get to the mega theory tomorrow since that's when the last of the details came in and made me realize "Oh yeah that's a thing that kinda puts this whole thing in perspective."
Cause like if the takeaway from this set of episodes is "Oh Zi-O and crew have just been jumping worlds this whole time" then uh yeah, no. I don't want to firmly say that's wrong. But there's more to the words being said here and you need to look beyond them and at the positioning of certain characters in certain points of time. Like I'll admit the last six episodes of Zi-O are messy plotwise. But like, this isn't them trying to make a big reveal of this actually being a world hopping multidimensional story, this is them referencing their prior one. The whole Ridewatches exploding and letting out monsters? Okay that has some precedence for some of them. Remember that when the Ridewatches originally came into existence, a Rider ceased to be entirely and all aspects about the Rider were erased. Or rather because those aspects are so big they had to be stored somewhere and with the Ridewatches breaking that meant nothing else could hold them in and so just grunts and minor monsters galore! Really this episode is just a bunch of neat fight scenes with Geiz and Woz, and a kind of poor showing for Grand Zi-O before it poofs at the end. Not much to say here so let's get onto BGM stuff. Toki no Ouja, Decade Preview BGM, Tsukuyomi's insert, and Drive's Preview BGM. Not much to say here so let's roll the BGM Swap. Zero's Legend Episode Previews Corner - EP 48 Preview: |
05-14-2022, 06:14 PM | #1088 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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(Fish Sandwich also watched Kamen Rider Zi-O - EP47)
Predictably, the post linked above consists in large part of me saying the details of the plot mechanics in Zi-O aren't worth sweating. Somewhat less predictably, the other half of it is me dunking on Swartz for being underdeveloped and uninteresting. I guess I was still managing to hold on to that last tiny bit of emotional distance even though I was firmly in love with the show by this point. Going back to the Geiz comparison, I suppose that minor apathy towards Swartz is the equivalent of him still refusing to call Sougo by his name. I honestly do think the effort to loop in Decade's plot mechanics is commendable, even now. The thing is, if you're the kind of person who insists all Rider shows are in one continuity, that would mean Decade itself is also part of that continuity, despite it being the show built around Rider shows not existing in one continuity, and messes like that are exactly why I can't help but respect Zi-O's insane endgame narrative choices. Mind you, I don't think this meta stuff is even remotely as considered or poignant as Over Quartzer was (or as straightforward), so it really is the effort I find commendable here more so than the results. There's no denying how convoluted the show starts getting around this point, and how that's probably to the detriment of the overall story. But putting the how and why of everything off to one side for a second, I think the concept of reality basically collapsing into this nightmare apocalypse of every Heisei monster ever is pretty dang appropriate for the climax of the final Heisei show? I can't deny the Time Nonsense going on here, but I can't deny how much fun I was still having with the show either! (Oh, and here's some trivia: this episode apparently aired on the exact day Die joined the forums! ...I'd like to think that even in an alternate timeline where Die didn't decide to watch everything else first, and feel the need to vent about Ghost as a result, he still would've made an account at the same time, just to vent about this arc instead.)
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05-14-2022, 06:57 PM | #1089 |
take me to space
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,406
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I feel like chiming in just to say that, the plot making no sense or contradicting itself or tearing new holes in itself at every opportunity would not in of itself be a problem to me. Well, obviously it would still be a massive distraction, but it probably wouldn't be a dealbreaker. Build and Ex-Aid, both shows I enjoyed a lot, were so clearly making up a lot of rules about how Nebula Gas or the Bugster Virus worked every other episode whenever it was convenient for the plot. But at the end of the day, it was always fairly easy to look past because the core, emotional conflict for the characters was still really strong, or at least they were to me.
And I know Zi-O has one of those too, its why I got so invested in the first place and why I care (i.e. complain) so much! But it's nowhere to be seen here in this episode. Instead, it seems what the show cares about at this critical point so near the end, is waxing nostalgia for a completely different show that aired ten years prior. Swell if you're a fan of Decade (and Chase), I guess. Not so swell if you're a fan of Zi-O. Also I can't even enjoy it on a purely spectable level, but maybe I'm just too old and cynical at this point to enjoy the inherent appeal of a ton of random suits wrestling with one another. I blame all the movies starring Kamen Rider Quarry. |
05-14-2022, 07:10 PM | #1090 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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As a fan of both of those... nah, can't quite say this episode did it for me either! Perhaps the critical thing here is that I'm also a fan of Zi-O and that takes priority in the, uh, Zi-O episode
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