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06-05-2021, 06:37 AM | #441 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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Was Emperor's debut really on this episode? Well... jeez, that's unfortunate, because it's the one that made me hate Jiro and the series as a whole. I guess that's why I've never loved the form until recently.
On a lighter note, a later movie did actually come up with an alternate solution to Emperor Form in order to have base Kiva be present in a bike scene without, y'know, killing the actor! ... it's just it looks really, really funny
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06-05-2021, 07:24 AM | #442 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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It's nice to have this directly confirmed by you, because this was the episode (even though I forgot it was also Emperor's debut as well) I immediately starting thinking of when I started to understand what your problems with the show were, and I was worried I might just be projecting my own issues with Kiva onto you or something.
Again, to say the least, I wasn't a big fan of Jirou after this one either.
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06-05-2021, 09:00 AM | #443 |
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2,096
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KAMEN RIDER KIVA EPISODE 24 - “EMPEROR: GOLDEN FEVER”
The introduction of Emperor Form… again, not sure this is the best place for a hilarious new Henshin Monster! Tatsulot is, uh, a lot. It’s chipper and goofy and a man’s wife just died. The suit it generates is, like, Why Are You Wearing That To A Funeral. It’s a plot development that expects us to see more emotion in Mio getting knocked out (for maybe actual good reason, if she’s the new Queen!) than Shinji’s devastating grief, and that is such a total miscalculation. It ain’t like I’m rooting for Mio or Kiva to get demolished or anything, but I’m not feeling excited about some new duds for Kiva. Let me mourn, dudes. I also think this is the perfect timing for Emperor's debut. It's unconventionally early for a final form debut, but there's a minimalism to this particular one that makes it seem like it's holding back. This is cause it's one of the few final forms that become stronger throughout the show. I don't want to spoil anything for you, but if this wasn't enough to excite you, then don't worry, there are way more awesome opportunities to appreciate this bad*ss form! Even at its most basic, I like how the original Wake Up leg design moves to the chest and then his Riderkick takes the shape of fangs! Quote:
The Jiro stuff, while being the Shout It To The Cheap Seats melodrama that the minor key Shinji/Ryoko stuff strenuously avoided, worked… I don’t know. It’s there to complement the 2008 story, to double-down on love as being something you don’t experience without at least a little pain. It’s full-tilt crazy, with Jiro screaming in Yuri’s face for her to love him, and the shift from Shinji feeling the weight of his dead wife on his back and just standing there, rooted to the ground just like that tree… the shift from that to Yuri getting strung up by some fake-looking vines while Jiro cackles maniacally, it’s not great. It is some tonal whiplash that this episode didn’t need.
I'm not going to defend Jirou's yandere behavior and his abduction of Yuri. However, I will praise him for doing what Kusaka was too pathetic to do. When Yuri confessed her love for Otoya, Jirou conceded. The sad part is that while Jirou claimed he only wanted Yuri to make more Clawolves, I think his love for her was actually sincere, or else he wouldn't have bothered with sparing their lives. Honestly, I'm surprised how little you've talked about this and the Wataru and Mio developments, since I think I disagree with most of what you said about this episode. It's one of my favorites and I recall it very fondly! You remember who the actual main characters are, right? Quote:
Awwwwww yeah! It's finally time to talk about Supernova!
I mean, there's probably not even that much that needs to be said though, is there? I'm pretty sure the song for Emperor Form has a legitimate reputation among anyone who even slightly cares about Rider insert themes as being that god tier, grade A, greatest of all time material. The show certainly loves to play it at any given opportunity, at least! And it isn't hard to see why, because it really is pretty much the perfect theme for it. It's especially interesting for how it contrasts with Destiny's Play to create this duo of themes that essentially portray Wataru prior to his character arc and after. Supernova is infinitely more straightforward as a song for a hero, with a rocking sound that would make Kengo proud and lyrics all about how much Wataru isn't doubting himself for once. It's pretty amazing. They took a character themed around night and the moon and stuff and then named his final form's theme song after the brilliant light of an exploding star. Supernova is maybe a favorite for everyone, and that's no less true for me. Again, I'd like to emphasize that I knew Kiva's cast entirely through the soundtrack for a good few years, and I was kind of predisposed to like Wataru going in thanks to character songs with this much character in them. I mentioned in the Den-O thread that it's in my top 5 KR insert themes, but thinking about that further, it's also my favorite final form theme and second only to Cyclone Effect. Seto is one of the best things to ever happen to a KR show. I like how Supernova is used as metaphor for change. When a dying star is at its smallest and weakest, its most helpless, suddenly it becomes a powerful force stronger than anything it was before and that change has the power to affect everything around it and shape the events that revolve around it. That's why it's such a genius progression from Destiny's Play, which is all about the old Wataru's desire and courage to change. Supernova is the new Wataru, without his inhibitions, realizing all that potential he never knew he had. It may still be related to his moon motif as well, with the last lyrics: "In the midst of this invisible darkness As though creating a faint light" Quote:
You bet!
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06-05-2021, 11:55 AM | #444 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Emperor Form itself is just spectacular, too. It's not even a matter of whether or not it's a favorite for me as much as it being basically an objectively perfect concept for Kiva? It's Wataru after literally breaking his chains. It's so perfect I don't know if anything more than that one simple sentence is even necessary. The design itself informs you about the context and meaning behind it in a very clear way, and it does all that while being all gold and pretty and named after royalty and having a cape. It's textbook. God tier, grade A, greatest of all time material in its own right. And if meant Takaiwa got to feel just as unburdened as Wataru was, then all the better! I can't even begrudge the series for losing interest in the cool form changes at that point. You really can't go wrong with this suit!
I mean, thematically, sure. Wataru is significantly more confident and assertive in this episode (I love Megumi getting up and walking away from her mentor-y pep-talk with Mio because Wataru's already got it covered), and having him burst out of his Daddy Issues cocoon into something glorious and liberated? Yes, okay, got it, agreed. Just aesthetically, though? Not a fan! (I haven't really seen it in much action, so maybe that'll change.) The gold isn't my favorite color-scheme, I don't really dig capes on my Riders, and it feels more like a secondary Rider to me than an upgrade for Kiva. I don't hate it or anything; like I said, it's just a slight downgrade for me from the base Kiva suit. But, yeah, did not feel too thrilled to see it in 24. Quote:
And then over in '08, Shinji being so fundamentally sympathetic made it extremely difficult to feel good watching Wataru off him with such little hesitation, regardless of whatever danger you want to put Mio in. It stung especially because the episodes that made me start truly liking both Kiva the show and Wataru in the first place were the ones that ended with him refusing to kill a sympathetic Fangire.
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I think maybe you're being a little unfair on Tatsulot? It seems like the only reason you're complaining about him is due to the circumstances surrounding his debut. Personally, I think he's an adorable little addition to Kiva's team and he's one of Wataru's biggest fans. He's so excited for him to become Kiva Emperor for the first time and with such an awesome suit and insert theme, I can't blame him! Maybe he'll grow on you so that you will like him almost as much as you like Kivat (actually, you haven't talked much about Kivat, so I presume you like him?).
Still, maybe I just haven't given a chance to this unique character who gets biz-zay, consistently and thoroughly. Maybe I just haven't gotten used to its totally outrageous paradigm. Maybe if I could find a little room in my heart, we can laugh and cry until we grow old together. Maybe! (And I like Kivat! He doesn't really ever get a story, so it's tough to feel like bringing him up. But I do like his weird energy and his stewardship of Wataru!) Quote:
Honestly, I'm surprised how little you've talked about this and the Wataru and Mio developments, since I think I disagree with most of what you said about this episode. It's one of my favorites and I recall it very fondly! You remember who the actual main characters are, right?
And, man, I would love for any of the main characters in this story to be treated with the care and intelligence Shinji and Ryoko were. That is my dream. But as long as they're subject to weird heel turns (Jiro) and ill-timed power upgrades (Wataru; fine for it showing up at this point in the series, not fine with it being in this episode), I'm probably going to connect more to the well-written, powerfully-acted, beautifully-shot love story.
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06-05-2021, 12:57 PM | #445 |
Yodonna oshi
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 748
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It interests me that there is apparently this beef between Kobayashi and Inoue, as, to me, Takayama from Amazons—who I am clearly an advocate of—feels to me to be another kind of Jiro in that they both seem representative of a certain masculine aggression that their shows struggle to frame within the context of "exciting superhero adventure show" whilst still maintaining the animalistic violence at the heart of their characters. In both cases, I think it is sad that the shows back down on the latter in order to accommodate the former, not because I want to watch dreary misogynistic misery for 42 episodes or whatever, but because I think there is a story that you can tell there about such people that does not make the concessions that both Amazons and Kiva do and yet still deals with these themes without delving into grotesquery. I think this is what I like about the portrayal of Kusaka, you know? I don't like Kusaka at all, I think he's awful—and I think his presence absolutely raises the quality of what 555 is as a work. I also feel that the horror of Jiro's actions, the inhumanity of Jiro's actions, could have done the same for Kiva... but didn't, because Kiva always seemed to strive to find some middle ground between two depictions of a character that could not be reconciled, whereas 555 was more comfortable with presenting the ambiguity of a character of this caliber. I don't quite know if I am making myself clear; how do I explain that I yearned for Jiro to be more monstrous, more inhuman, without sounding like I glory in nihilistic brutality? I'm not sure I have the right words. Perhaps it is the characters that I dislike, the characters who represent the opposite of my beliefs and feelings in real life that I am most interested in seeing depicted? Perhaps this is just a dreamcastegirl thing. Gosh, whenever I speak up in this thread, I sound really broken. I promise I am normal in real life! |
06-05-2021, 01:26 PM | #446 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
1) A CHARISMATIC MONSTER IS A GODDAMN TIGHTROPE The idea of the seductiveness of evil is hugely compelling, and it always has been. A villain with a point of view is great; a villain with a point of view who can win you over is even better. Of course a show is going to want to toy with that approach, and of course a show is going to want to write towards a performer that is as good as Jiro's actor. The problem is that you're left with an impossible set of potential resolutions to that story. You can either show the tragic consequences of the character's worldview/goals (The Takayama Approach), and give a brutal end to a popular character; or you can try and salvage the viewers' affection by reforming the villain, asking the audience to consider the villain's misguided feelings while they were doing reprehensible things (The Alain Approach). Both of those choices sort of suck? Rider shows usually go with the second one, and it means making your peace with, like, assault and kidnapping and gaslighting and a non-zero amount of attempted genocide. It's a lot of mental gymnastics, and it's sort of inherent to the medium. 2) MAYBE HE SHOULD BE LESS OF A FULL-TIME KILLER The trouble with Jiro is that he's been very upfront about his evil behaviors (he definitely murdered and ate innocent people!), but the show continues to treat him like a misbehaving puppy. It's one thing for Otoya to write off frequent ambushes as, like, Boys Being Boys, but it's another for the show to try and forget that Jiro has eaten innocent people and hid the evidence. 3) HIS EVILNESS HAS A MUNDANE QUALITY, AND THAT'S WAY WORSE It's pretty much the thing that made Kusaka incredibly difficult to stomach in Faiz: it's all about emotionally isolating and physically controlling a woman. It's a kind of real-world evil that lacks the heightened details to make it forgivable. (Arguably, Faiz wasn't really interested in forgiving Kusaka, which was key.) It's a question of scale, you know? Jiro blowing up a city block (or whatever) isn't anything I can relate to or connect with emotionally. It's TV violence, and TV stakes. But Jiro threatening Yuri's safety and autonomy is sickening in a realistic way, despite transformations and musical cues. There's not enough dramatic distance to create space for me to feel like I need to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. 4) EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE YURI/OTOYA/JIRO PLOT I think this thing just mostly doesn't work, narratively. Even when Yuri declares her love for Otoya, a character I've largely come around on, I was like... Why? Why would she love a womanizing buffoon? Why would a controlling pile of machismo in a silk shirt ever feel like a compelling alternative? Nothing in this three-way dance ever felt like it was coming from an understandable place, so there's even less incentive to explain away Jiro's sizable flaws.
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06-05-2021, 01:45 PM | #447 |
Yodonna oshi
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 748
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I don't want to touch on this subject, to be honest. I think I can, however, empathise to a degree with loving someone who is cruel. Not grand guignol cruel, but nonetheless cruel. But yes, the show does a poor job of reconciling Jiro's nature with the role it wants him to play later on and it suffers for it. You said all this far better than I did so I won't try and rephrase all your points. Gosh. I am inarticulate today. |
06-05-2021, 01:56 PM | #448 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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I don't blame you for feeling like you're not expressing your thoughts on intensely emotional content well. I remember having a tough time in Faiz, where it was difficult to explain why Kusaka slapping Mari was way more unforgivable than his frequent schemes to murder Takumi. It's hard to talk about things like vulnerability, and trust, and informed consent instead of, like, collectibles and finishing moves. It's one of the reasons why I'm a little less Let's See Where This Goes when Inoue starts dealing with those themes, because it requires a level of delicateness that I just basically don't think a show designed to sell toys to Japanese children is equipped to handle.
Like... you can hit those themes in a metaphorical way, absolutely. The best shows have! But approaching them literally is... I would maybe not crawl out on that limb if I was writing a tokusatsu show.
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06-05-2021, 02:38 PM | #449 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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For me, and I don't wanna get into it too much (because it's an uncomfortable subject that concerns a show I'm really not crazy about otherwise), it's
A) "Forcing a woman to have your kids", is... it's not a subject I really want to see? I'm happy to see a show go dark places, and I'm very much for artistic freedom in being able to portray a lot of those dark places rather than hiding from them; but there's also the onus of responsibility on the artist to actually treat those important subjects with the maturity and respect and weight they're due? And... this is barely treated as anything more heinous than Jiro's other acts and doesn't portray him any worse. It's not something I personally want to see anyway, but I would at least want it done well. B) Perhaps more pertinently, even if you had portrayed it extremely well; is this seriously something that needs to be in your children's show about selling toys? Remembering this was the Emperor debut really puts this into perspective to me when it's contrasted with the introduction of Tatsulot and everything he is. Something I like about Kamen Rider is that it isn't afraid to challenge interesting subjects, and oftentimes doesn't patronise its audience of children and respects their intelligence to the point where they feel they can think about some of this stuff; but there's certain things where I think there's a limit, and this is a big one.
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06-05-2021, 02:46 PM | #450 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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For me, and I don't wanna get into it too much (because it's an uncomfortable subject that concerns a show I'm really not crazy about otherwise), it's
A) "Forcing a woman to have your kids", is... it's not a subject I really want to see? I'm happy to see a show go dark places, and I'm very much for artistic freedom in being able to portray a lot of those dark places rather than hiding from them; but there's also the onus of responsibility on the artist to actually treat those important subjects with the maturity and respect and weight they're due? And... this is barely treated as anything more heinous than Jiro's other acts and doesn't portray him any worse. It's not something I personally want to see anyway, but I would at least want it done well. B) Perhaps more pertinently, even if you had portrayed it extremely well; is this seriously something that needs to be in your children's show about selling toys? Remembering this was the Emperor debut really puts this into perspective to me when it's contrasted with the introduction of Tatsulot and everything he is. Something I like about Kamen Rider is that it isn't afraid to challenge interesting subjects, and oftentimes doesn't patronise its audience of children and respects their intelligence to the point where they feel they can think about some of this stuff; but there's certain things where I think there's a limit, and this is a big one.
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