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06-16-2016, 07:40 PM | #1 |
Comin' up OOOs!
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: A place where imports are impossible to find, NY
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I have a feeling this thread may cause arguments, and if it does then by all means lock it, but it's something about watching shows like Kamen Rider that's been grating to me as of late and I need to hear input on this.
Obviously tokusatsu shows run serialized over the course of a year, 49 to 52 episodes depending on the series. There have been some really great shows lately. Rider-wise, we've gotten the fantastic Gaim, the equally great Drive and Ghost has been very entertaining as well. That said, a lot of shows like these don't really get their ball rolling as quickly as shows that only get 12 to 24 episodes to tell their story. The first handful of episodes tend to be a slow burn, establishing characters, powers and abilities and having the audience getting to know the characters they'll be following for the next year. So why do so many people literally jump ship by the fifth episode and never look back? Drive had a slow burn before hitting its peak and was a great ride. Ghost also started slowly and has escalated fairly well, too. Yet I've seen a lot of people say that these series have terrible pacing and characters when those of us who stuck with it saw these things evolve and improve over time. For example, so many people who complain about Ghost's supporting cast probably never watched past the single digits, where characters like Akari and Onari get their moments, their characters level out and have become some of the most active and useful supporting cast members we've gotten in a while. And I've seen the argument that we don't have the time to spend waiting for pay-offs. I honestly think that's a bad excuse. Especially when people turn around and claim that Blade is one of the better Rider installments even though it apparently has a 15 episode slow burn. People nowadays have time to marathon netflix shows, so how much valuable time is someone wasting watching a 23 minute episode a week compared to that? I can't help but feel like a lot of Rider fans write off recent installments since the "almighty" Kamen Rider Gaim (which even though I adored, I think gets way too much praise by people and is held way too high as a standard for Rider shows) as terrible seasons when they're probably going off of the first 5 or so episodes alone. Am I the only one who thinks that here?
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06-16-2016, 08:02 PM | #2 |
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Quote:
For example, so many people who complain about Ghost's supporting cast probably never watched past the single digits, where characters like Akari and Onari get their moments, their characters level out and have become some of the most active and useful supporting cast members we've gotten in a while.
Ghost: Kanon is good Drive: the cop that became the gf of Drive and that scientist lady were the only good ones. |
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06-16-2016, 08:13 PM | #3 |
Stronger Than You
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: nyet
Posts: 25,326
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As a quick counter argument the marathoning case, when you have to wait a week per episode, it's a lot easier to just lose interest. You have to move at the show's pace, not your own, so when things start slowly, it can lead to about 2 months worth of episode before things pick up, so even though it's only about 22 minutes a week, once a show starts losing you, it's harder for it to keep you invested.
As for everything else, it just comes down to individual taste. Most people use a 5 episode test since that gives the show time to set up it's characters, establish it's setting, it's plot, and tone (Though tones shift, the first couple episodes do (Generally) let you know what kind of show it's going to be). So it gives what some people see as a good taste of what's to come. So if it can't grab one's attention in 5 weeks, why should someone give it 45 more weeks to start coming together? I understand it's not a perfect system (Using your example of Blade, yeah, the first 15 episodes are a bit of a slog, and many people would've dropped it using the 5 episode test if not for most of the forum vouching for it). It just has to do with patience. When the character who acts eccentrically and yells randomly starts prancing around during the early episodes in a clear act to catch children's attention, it can wear on someone's patience, and just decide that a series isn't worth continuing (And this isn't specifically targeted towards Onari. Mario from Zyuohger was shaping up to be the same, but they toned him down by episode 3-4, while other Sentai and Riders have featured much of the same (Wizard didn't, but it had it's own problems concerning the cast)). I see where the frustration comes from, but returning to a show you just don't care about week after week on the hopes that it might become good gets difficult after so long. I don't feel people are having unfair standards against Drive and Ghost because Gaim was good. Double was great, but people aren't rallying against OOO and Fourze as bad series. It's not a case of people having unfair terms and standards for deciding whether or not a series deserves their time, but rather how a series decides to handle it's beginning. Gaim's beginning wasn't indicative of it's final quarter at all, but it chose to be lively and energetic while managing with a subdued cast to prevent people from rolling their eyes when character x or y appeared. Drive opened with a police force that felt like the KRC without any of the establishing moments that made you care about them, all bumbling around with props and one policeman throwing a tantrum when Shinnosuke showed up. Gaim can be overhyped, agreed, but people aren't holding Drive and Ghost to Gaim's standard. People are just finding the flaws in the opening episode to be too overbearing to keep coming back to week after week.
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06-16-2016, 08:15 PM | #4 |
Comin' up OOOs!
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Even Drive's cast was useful in solving cases gaining police support or hindering police support as a way to keep them from interfering with Rider-related issues. And according to what you're saying, characters like the Kamen Rider Club in Fourze must also drag down the Riders as well.
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06-16-2016, 09:15 PM | #5 |
Henshin Heaven
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Personally speaking, once I start something I watch it through to the end. If I'm going to hate something I want to be able to rip on it as best as I possibly can. If it improves, all the better! I can see how this would be more of an issue watching the show weekly though, watching slowly can be a totally different experience from binge watching.
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06-16-2016, 09:27 PM | #6 |
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I do agree in that how you watch it can effect your thoughts on it. Netflix is a good example of this. More people praise shows on that streaming service than some tv-only shows. And I'll bet a good portion of that judgement comes from the fact that the time, place & mood are set differently. If you feel like checking something out then you can do it as you please with a few clicks. But if you're held at the mercy of a company or studio that tells you when you get to watch something then the experience may not be as good.
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06-16-2016, 09:47 PM | #7 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I'm not really the person to answer this since I tend to like the first episodes of a show just as much as later ones, but I think it really just comes down to people having better crap to be doing.
If a show isn't doing it for them after 6 episodes, that's 2 hours they aren't getting back, and it isn't unreasonable to want to spend that time doing something you'd enjoy more instead of committing like 18 more hours in hopes the show starts to grow on you. Again, I'm the guy who likes Wizard specifically because it's boring, so I can't claim to fully understand the mindset, but, you know, your free time is your free time, so if you wanna call Ghost crap after 3 episodes and move on regardless of how awesome it is, I guess more power to you.
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Last edited by Fish Sandwich; 06-16-2016 at 10:26 PM.. |
06-17-2016, 08:21 AM | #8 |
Dai Shogun
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Germany
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That said, a lot of shows like these don't really get their ball rolling as quickly as shows that only get 12 to 24 episodes to tell their story. The first handful of episodes tend to be a slow burn, establishing characters, powers and abilities and having the audience getting to know the characters they'll be following for the next year.
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Which is exactly the problem with shows like these: Even a great comeback needs to happen before you write the show off or it’s too late. In Drive’s case, it was too late for me. Quote:
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Ghost did not get better (yet?), at all. It’s the same it has ever been: A mediocre show. Quote:
For example, so many people who complain about Ghost's supporting cast probably never watched past the single digits, where characters like Akari and Onari get their moments, their characters level out and have become some of the most active and useful supporting cast members we've gotten in a while.
Akari was never a problem for me; in fact I think she’s the best character in the entire show. She achieves her goals through her own power, without bullshit power-ups, and she’s the smartest and most considerate person in the entire cast. Takeru had a time where his motives were interesting but he transformed into the bland posterboy hero really fast, and Makoto went from interesting to boring as soon as Kanon returned to life. And while we’re talking Kanon: Horrible damsel in distress trophy character. Completely useless. Alain is the only other character I can think of right now who has generally good development, stays true to his motives and is fun to watch. Onari though… he is useless. Plain useless. He’s an insufferable token comedic relief character who in my book had two, two generally cool moments in 35 episodes. And that’s just awful. He continues to do dumb shit because that’s just Onari, and they never bother to let him grow as a character. Very early on he dropped a line where he said that he was a bad person in the past but Takeru’s dad took him in or something like that, and this was never mentioned again. Not a single episode where they bothered to focus on this buffoon and tell us his backstory. They waste so much time with Onari just doing stupid shit. I get it, he’s supposed to be funny and apparently it’s working because Japan loves him, but calling him "useful" is just wrong IMO. Quote:
And I've seen the argument that we don't have the time to spend waiting for pay-offs. I honestly think that's a bad excuse. Especially when people turn around and claim that Blade is one of the better Rider installments even though it apparently has a 15 episode slow burn. People nowadays have time to marathon netflix shows, so how much valuable time is someone wasting watching a 23 minute episode a week compared to that?
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I can't help but feel like a lot of Rider fans write off recent installments since the "almighty" Kamen Rider Gaim (which even though I adored, I think gets way too much praise by people and is held way too high as a standard for Rider shows) as terrible seasons when they're probably going off of the first 5 or so episodes alone.
Gaim was my first show, I watched a lot of Rider after, found lots of shows I enjoy, so I won’t accept that people write my opinion off because I’m a Gaim fanboy who has high expectations. I don’t have high expectations; I just think I watched enough Rider by now to know when a show just isn’t good. Or maybe Ghost just isn’t for me, that could be a thing too. But it has nothing to do with me having high expectations still. |
06-17-2016, 09:13 AM | #9 |
Kawaii 5-0
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cardiff, United Kingdom
Posts: 12,851
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I generally agree that 5 episodes might not be enough to full gauge just where a show is going, but the line has to be drawn somewhere I guess. These shows are long and with the amount of other stuff people may watch, it's time consuming to juggle a show simply on the basis that it MAY get better.
The problem with Ghost is that it threw everything that it had into the first few episodes, spamming new power ups like there was no tomorrow which in turn made none of them feel at all special. As for the supporting cast - Akari has been fantastic and one of my favourite support cast members in the entire franchise, but the rest really haven't gone anywhere other than Alain. The only lingering interest in Makoto since the Kanon arc ended is the Deep Specter stuff (which feels forgotten about most of the time), Onari is just loud and Kanon is just a damsel in distress. I got more out of Kubei than I did those three. Out of all of them, why Kanon?
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06-17-2016, 09:54 AM | #10 |
1000% CEO
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 319
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I don't see why it's a big deal that some fans drop a certain series.
I dropped W after 9 episodes. I dropped Gaim after 14 episodes. The only reason I made it through 30 episodes of Ghost is because apparently I'm a masochist and the show is ripe for memes. And what enjoyment I did get out of it was mocking it. I have a short attention span and limited free time. I want to watch something I can get into and into early. If the show doesn't have me by around episode 10, I'm around. I even gave Gaim some extra leeway and it failed me.
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