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05-14-2022, 08:12 PM | #1091 |
I have a problematic type
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Tackling the second one first, because that?s how unnecessarily convoluted this series has gotten: You can do a multiverse story, or you can do a time travel story. You cannot do a time-traveling multiverse story. This was a show where characters met Kamen Riders by traveling back in time, or by meeting them in the modern day. Now, at the eleventh hour, we?re told that this has really been a multiverse story, where Sougo?s been tricked into leaving other worlds defenseless by stealing their Rider?s powers.
Now Switchblade, the devil may advocate, many of those crossovers happened in movies and Kamen Rider movies have always had fairly tenuous relationships with their shows. Many are blatantly not canon and the team-up intensive ones, in particular, are often completely divorced from the show's narrative. That is a fair point; you could probably make a convincing case that something like, say, GoRiders may not have really happened in the main Ex-Aid timeline. In response, though, I would point out that many of these films are, again, explicitly canon to the shows and elements from them absolutely turn up on the series proper. Also, Haruto was on an episode of Fourze. Takeru was on Drive. This is not the 2000s again, where the closest we ever got to crossovers were an HBV and the one Den-O movie that even Den-O ignores. It is patently absurd for Zi-O to start its endgame with "So there are 19 separate Kamen Rider worlds..." *Build notwithstanding. **Build still notwithstanding. |
05-14-2022, 08:28 PM | #1092 |
Kaiju or Hero?
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So, stuff happened, and now Zi-O has become Decade Season II.
Now, I'm not against Rider taking place in different worlds, since some of them don't quite fit into a specific timeline, but Zi-O set itself up as a time travelling story, and as Die mentioned, you can't do both, or at least not like this. To be honest, I don't remember much at all about last episode other than Woz being a hero, they finally beat Eternal who gives a thumbs up, and Aqua dies. So I'm moving on to this episode that I also don't remember much on. It's this final arc where Zi-O starts to slowly fall apart, sure you could say it's the Decade arc, but I also feel like even that could have been done better. Swartz isn't a really good villain, and it just becomes something of a mess overall. It doesn't feel like an Anniversary plot (despite how much it leans into that territory) nor is it really helping the Zi-O plot, which makes the bridge between the endgame and finale a bit of a slog. |
05-15-2022, 12:03 AM | #1093 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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*rolls up sleeves*
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So Swartz had the Time Jackers create Another Riders which had Sougo and friends deal with them and getting themselves Ridewatches in the process, and push Sougo closer towards becoming Ohma Zi-O, and an extremely powerful powerset for Swartz to steal. It's how Time Jackers was important to Swartz.
It's the "somehow" that always drives me up the wall. If you're powerful enough to steal that hero's powers, why do you even need them in the first place? And what if you aren't powerful enough to steal the hero's power? Aren't you just creating your own defeat? It's so dumb. Quote:
I think the problem isn't that Decade Is Bad, it's that Decade and Zi-O have two different central metaphors that their story structure is built to support. Decade's a show about trying to fit in and discover your potential, so it makes sense to do that in a multiverse. Zi-O is show about making the best decisions each day to ensure you reach the best future possible, so it needs to be a time travel show. (Obviously, the themes were likely decided after the settings, but work with me here.) (Also, there's another very specific thematic thing Zi-O is doing that I'll talk about in a few days.) If you start mixing a multiverse story with a time travel story, you're handicapping yourself thematically in a way that's totally unnecessary. Quote:
Though I will say, I prefer Schwartz as a villain to most of the post-Gaim villains, (save Ghost?s), in that he has a plan that seems logical given his background (I still do not get why the CEO of a game company wanted to conquer the world) and an actual reason behind his plan (which far too many of those shows relied on to V-Cinemas for).
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Apparently, a world without Kamen Riders is doomed to collapse, without reason. Even though Tsukasa literally visited one such world before, the World of Shinkenger. And that world was totally fine without Riders. Narutaki's whole point to Tsukasa in that arc was how Riders inherently make worlds worse, not better. Swartz's timeline contradicts everything we've been told and shown in Decade!
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Anyway, yeah. I thought i was mistaken in my inital memories of the show but the show's plot does kinda fall apart at the seams, if you think about it for a second. Wouldn't be an issue at all for me if we got some good character moments to distract from that, but unfortunately that isnt the case here.
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Cause like if the takeaway from this set of episodes is "Oh Zi-O and crew have just been jumping worlds this whole time" then uh yeah, no. I don't want to firmly say that's wrong. But there's more to the words being said here and you need to look beyond them and at the positioning of certain characters in certain points of time. Like I'll admit the last six episodes of Zi-O are messy plotwise. But like, this isn't them trying to make a big reveal of this actually being a world hopping multidimensional story, this is them referencing their prior one.
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But putting the how and why of everything off to one side for a second, I think the concept of reality basically collapsing into this nightmare apocalypse of every Heisei monster ever is pretty dang appropriate for the climax of the final Heisei show? I can't deny the Time Nonsense going on here, but I can't deny how much fun I was still having with the show either!
However. I briefly thought the beginning of this show was setting up Swartz bringing every Heisei finale into Zi-O's time, and I thought that was brilliant. Making the anniversary guy defeat every Big Bad, in nineteen overlapping apocalypses? What an endgame! Instead, it's a bunch of random monster suits and a neat cameo, the end. Not as fun for me, and that sort of tainted my enjoyment. Quote:
(Oh, and here's some trivia: this episode apparently aired on the exact day Die joined the forums! ...I'd like to think that even in an alternate timeline where Die didn't decide to watch everything else first, and feel the need to vent about Ghost as a result, he still would've made an account at the same time, just to vent about this arc instead.)
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And I know Zi-O has one of those too, its why I got so invested in the first place and why I care (i.e. complain) so much! But it's nowhere to be seen here in this episode. Instead, it seems what the show cares about at this critical point so near the end, is waxing nostalgia for a completely different show that aired ten years prior. Swell if you're a fan of Decade (and Chase), I guess. Not so swell if you're a fan of Zi-O.
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It's this final arc where Zi-O starts to slowly fall apart, sure you could say it's the Decade arc, but I also feel like even that could have been done better. Swartz isn't a really good villain, and it just becomes something of a mess overall. It doesn't feel like an Anniversary plot (despite how much it leans into that territory) nor is it really helping the Zi-O plot, which makes the bridge between the endgame and finale a bit of a slog.
You can't do a Decade arc on Zi-O just by trying to convolute an impossible choice for Sougo and having a bunch of multiverse stuff show up. It's not really sufficient?
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05-15-2022, 01:09 AM | #1094 |
New Member
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Location: Evanston IL.
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So ZI-O has Became Decade Season 2.
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05-15-2022, 01:23 AM | #1095 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
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People are definitely saying that, but, boy, I really don't see it? I mean, yeah, Decade's in it; and, yeah, Tsukasa's just come to the conclusion that he needs to destroy this world, but that all feels almost incidental to what's really happening within this story. You could just as easily say that the series began as Build Season 2, if that's the criteria.
It's... I don't want to use the word "dismissive", because I think this thread's already had a discussion over how many assumptions that word makes. But it's reducing an intensely complicated set of shows into a few obvious signifiers, and I think that's weirdly disrespectful to the complexity of both shows, and what their creators were trying to say. I mean, I don't love what's going on in this show right now! It's not fun to watch! But I don't feel like it's become Decade any more than I feel like it became Blade or Den-O or whatever. The problem is that it's lost its characters amongst plot machinations, and I don't remember that being a huge Decade problem? (Maybe it was! I legitimately don't remember! I don't retain this stuff super great!) Like, the key thing for Decade was Tsukasa feeling manipulated by the universe to be something he didn't understand, in a way that might disappoint the people who believed in him. Metaphorically, it was his ability to define himself being removed. We may yet get there with Sougo, but I don't think he's trapped into one action in the same way. He's got choices, even if they don't make a ton of sense. His metaphorical struggle is inherently different than Tsukasa's. He's not someone looking for a place to belong, or a world that'll accept him. He's trying to figure out how to avoid becoming a person he fears. His choices here are about how he can use his power to protect people, rather than accrue power for its own sake. It's two different things? And, sure, the worlds are colliding at the end of Zi-O! That's a little familiar! But I just can't see it as more than this show scrambling for an apocalypse when it really wants to talk about people.
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05-15-2022, 02:16 AM | #1096 |
New Member
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Location: Evanston IL.
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I meant finishing plot threads from Decade into this show.
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05-15-2022, 09:56 AM | #1097 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Even then... I don't feel like it is? Any more than Tsukasa randomly showing up in any other series or event was continuing those plot threads? This is just, like, his deal. He shows up, everything goes sideways, he Gets The Gist, victory. He's more active here than I'd maybe like (especially in this episode), but the narrative is still fully centered on Zi-O characters.
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05-15-2022, 04:32 PM | #1098 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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This is a real Personal Preference type of thing, but I've never liked plots that are about a villain tricking a hero into getting super-powerful -- more powerful than even the villain -- and then somehow stealing that power and securing total victory.
It's the "somehow" that always drives me up the wall. If you're powerful enough to steal that hero's powers, why do you even need them in the first place? And what if you aren't powerful enough to steal the hero's power? Aren't you just creating your own defeat? Quote:
KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 47 - ?2019 - VANISHING WATCH?
There?s a thing we do, at the comics shop I co-own. If someone asks how a book is, and you don?t like it, you don?t say ?It?s bad.? Bad?s objective, and unhelpful. Art?s subjective. It?s better to allow for that subjectivity by saying something like ?It wasn?t for me.? Saying it that way acknowledges that your own personal likes and dislikes might?ve colored the experience, and someone else might take more out of it than you did. Quote:
Tackling the second one first, because that?s how unnecessarily convoluted this series has gotten: You can do a multiverse story, or you can do a time travel story. You cannot do a time-traveling multiverse story. This was a show where characters met Kamen Riders by traveling back in time, or by meeting them in the modern day. Now, at the eleventh hour, we?re told that this has really been a multiverse story, where Sougo?s been tricked into leaving other worlds defenseless by stealing their Rider?s powers.
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And, outside of a perplexing endgame, there?s really nothing else here. The ?emotional? content is just Sougo and Tsukuyomi returning to the Misery Suburbs of 2058 to get some hard evidence regarding Swartz?z most-recent absurd claims, and I was actually excited about this plotline at first. Team Zi-O has been almost permanently reactive in the series arc, so a more serious Sougo opting to investigate a wild claim instead of accepting it at face value is a nice development!
Too bad there?s nothing substantial waiting for him that we either didn?t already know, or couldn?t?ve surmised. Swartz is ? are you sitting down? ? a guy who cares more about power than protecting his sister. I know! Stunning! Well worth the trip! Literally everything about his relationship with Tsukuyomi is stuff the character already told her several episodes ago, so I don?t know why the show would waste time reiterating it. The info about how Swartz is planning to destroy everything is new, but it also makes zero sense. Other than how it's meant to show Swartz's comparison to Tsukasa. Swartz's goal is a twisted replication of Decade's story (and what'd happen if Sougo chose to do nothing, as the other options are killing Swartz and making his friend vanish, letting Swartz win, or becoming Ohma Zi-O). In Decade, Tsukasa's powers were unwittingly fusing the A.R. Rider worlds with his which will destroy them all thus he needs to destroy the A.R. worlds, Swartz is willingly and forcefully fusing every world except his into one so he can destroy it. At the end of Decade's story, Tsukasa let himself be killed after he killed every Rider so a unified world could be born with all the dead Riders revived, Swartz simply wants to save his world to rule it and is willing to do anything to accomplish his goal. Tsukasa had his sister being his anchor, who had been corrupted to fight for Dai-Shocker. While Swartz's treatment of Tsukuyomi, redundant to convey it here already! He even contrasts Kaitou too. Kaitou broke away from an authority position to escape the controlling influence of his bullying big brother, while stealing only unique, irreplaceable objects from every dimension he visited as collectibles. Swartz chose to stay in his position of authority, taking away the unique powers of the Heisei Kamen Riders to advance his plans. And he's the one who's bullying big brother instead of the one who got bullied, manipulating Heure and attempting to murder Tsukuyomi. As Another Decade, Swartz summons Dark Riders that appeared in the various Kamen Rider movies while Kaitou's world is based on Blade's movie. Quote:
Swartz?z plan is to combine all worlds into one, and then destroy them. (I don?t? why would his be left? Why does it matter how many timelines exist? Why is any of this happening, and why would it matter to his timeline if he?s not around? Couldn?t the more powerful Alpina keep that timeline intact?) It?s a ludicrous explanation from this show, because the very first scene of the very first episode contradicts it. Oma Zi-O exists in the future of Sougo?s world. If Sougo?s world is destroyed in 2019, Oma Zi-O and the Misery Fields of 2068 can?t exist. Even allowing for the idea that Swartz?z plan negates that potential future, that future only exists because of Swartz?z plan. It? none of this makes any sense.
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There was nothing for me in this episode, beyond the tawdry nostalgia of guest appearances. (Fun to see Chase again, at any rate.) I said at the beginning of this thread that the stuff I care least about are the anniversary elements, so let that help you understand the depth of my disappointment. The exploration of the series arc was horrifyingly incoherent, while the character development was facile and obvious. Exhausting to see a show so dedicated to evaporating all of my goodwill.
I don't know if they did bring up Heisei finale at this time but different from what you suggested, like how here, the worlds are merging with every Ridewatch that breaks. In succession, the Skywall from Build, complete with Clone Smash and Guardians. Then Roidmudes of Drive appear, lead by an Another World Mashin Chaser. Then the Fuuto Tower and Yggdrasill Tower of W and Gaim appear, causing Masquerade Dopants and Elementary Inves to appear. Then the Mirror World of Ryuki merges with Earth, causing the sky to be filled with Mirror Monsters. Finally, the GrandZi-O RideWatch fades, and by then, OOO's, Fourze's, Hibiki's, and Kabuto's realities have also fused. That's how the stakes are done in the worlds in Zi-O, the culmination of the various paradoxes that have happened over the course of the series, unsealing the powers and history in said previous Rider series but not the Riders, that forces Decade to destroy the world. Quote:
Though I will say, I prefer Schwartz as a villain to most of the post-Gaim villains, (save Ghost?s), in that he has a plan that seems logical given his background (I still do not get why the CEO of a game company wanted to conquer the world) and an actual reason behind his plan (which far too many of those shows relied on to V-Cinemas for).
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05-15-2022, 06:11 PM | #1099 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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I don't think that Alpina is actually more powerful, actually, and I do think that this plot is redundant to show to the audience, but this is done to show that Swartz's claim to be well-intentioned to save his world by destroying the other ones are bullshit, not bullshit as in about how convoluted it is, but about how he's just self-serving beneath his 'noble' claims, of which Sougo apparently exposed him here by asking the scenario if Alpina is more powerful than him (A̶l̶p̶i̶n̶a̶ ̶W̶a̶t̶c̶h̶e̶s̶ ̶>̶ ̶S̶w̶a̶t̶c̶h̶) then of course Swartz would go apeshit instead, which shows that Swartz only cared about being superior to his younger sister, but obviously we all already know Swartz is a depraved SOB and this plot is not necessary to show that further.
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05-15-2022, 07:22 PM | #1100 |
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KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 48 - “2068 - OMA TIME”
God, what a reversal. One of my favorite episodes of this entire series, maybe. It’s beautiful, and smart, and sad, and triumphant in its encapsulation of everything this series did well. The thing about all of these apocalypses that Kamen Riders work year-long to avert is that they don’t matter, honestly. The point isn’t the scale, or the intricacy of the plotting. They’re just a framework to build and explore characters, or to present themes and morals. Whether it’s a massive black hole or an invading army, it’s all beside the point. Fun to watch, but minor in comparison to what these shows are really for. The point of the endgame is to tell us how it’s affecting our heroes. The specifics of what’s at risk, or what might be required to save the day. A bunch of Legend Mooks attacking Tokyo for two straight episodes is just plot, and I care less about plot than I do about characters. I want to know what this all means to Sougo, and how he views himself amongst all of this chaos. God bless this episode. The details of Swartz’z mad scheme fade to the background, thankfully, as we spend the moments before the end finding out how Sougo will finally respond to the choice he was given episodes ago. Swartz presented him with three outcomes to choose from, and Sougo spent two episodes paralyzed by them. All of them required people to be sacrificed, or they solidified a terrible future. Here, we see the culmination of a year’s worth of character development, as Sougo realizes the one weapon that neither Swartz nor Oma Zi-O can match: his friendships. It’s perfect, that message. The irony of a show about a boy who was destined to be king, saving the day by delegating and cooperating, is delicious. The fact that Trinity Form was how Oma Zi-O could be bested, because Oma Zi-O never had friends… I love it so much. It takes the four dozen little moments with these characters and forges them into a weapon capable of battling a god. It all feels like the best reward possible for people who emotionally invested in this show, because it’s explicitly about the inevitable value in connecting with people, how the future becomes brighter if we’re all there together. It’s everything Sougo ever said about making a future for everyone. Oma Zi-O only made a future for himself, and look how he got beat. It’s the smartest thing, in an episode with a million smart Sougo moments. I love him getting one last pep talk from Uncle, and trying to hide the pride he felt from Uncle suggesting that Kamen Rider Zi-O protected people like a king. I love him stunning Tsukasa with a bittersweet embrace of a destined sacrifice. I love him giving Tsukuyomi the chance to be the hero she already was, but in a much more marketable form. (I’ll echo everyone I’ve ever seen in the SHF thread: Kamen Rider Tsukuyomi when, Bandai?!) I love how this whole episode is about people realizing that connections and empathy matter more than Time Nonsense. Everyone in it gets a cute moment or two, but I adore how tightly this episode plays like Sougo’s Last Day On Earth. The weight of all of this insanity is worth a million times more than an explanation of said insanity, and I’m glad this show finally remembered that.
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