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View Poll Results: Redemption Ark. When you love it? | |||
Always. I want the main hero/heroes to team up with the villains of the first quarter at the end. | 3 | 15.00% | |
I love it when it's an unexpected twist. | 0 | 0% | |
When I can trace how the character came to this. | 10 | 50.00% | |
When a character does something that shows they have changed. | 5 | 25.00% | |
Never. I love stability. | 2 | 10.00% | |
Voters: 20. This poll is closed |
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09-12-2023, 03:02 PM | #21 |
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The third option I guess - when I can trace how the character came to this. It'd be what I'm fine for if there are already setups before. The damages a villain cause isn't necessarily a measure on how evil they're, it'd be more of how powerful or competent they're. Typically anti-villainous characters would be easier to believably change due to them already having some virtues before, which is already a setup for their change. I think it'd be harder (but not impossible, except for cases below) to trace a straight villain changing by themselves as they often look down on virtue, and often media don't give convincing arguments to uphold virtue.
Though generally if a character has crossed pure evil territory in their crimes (not merely them causing huge damage, btw), it should be at best them being forced for mutual benefit if they want a teamup between them and the heroes, which'd be not actually redeemed, what I'm sick of is people treating benefitting, good outcomes, or little decency/amiable of their as being good, which is the usual move of justifying villains by over-rewarding them, and overlooking the fact that evil vs evil is a thing. If they want to "stop" these kind of villain's threats, without killing them, it should not be them realizing and changing themselves IMO, but merely being "tamed" and thus retired, or at the very least, due to outside influence like no past memories (e.g. Sougo remaking Time Jacker's life from scratch). Inversely, it'd not be a redemption if a character is only evil due to outside influence, like being brainwashed, such as berserk forms, they never did anything wrong even if they'd feel regret for it. Quote:
I like a redemption arc as long as it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief. If I can't see enough redeeming qualities to make a bad guy turn good, but the plot does it anyway, then it doesn't work for me. Even if it's only something in one episode that has strong execution, then I can sympathize.
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I wonder how'd you refer (other than Evolt fighting Killbus) to Kuroto (True Ending or Another Ending's Zombie Survival) or Masamune's (pleading for Kiriya to stop Kuroto) last seen actions. There are enough people who point out Kuroto wasn't redeemed and Daichi should be given similar treatment (he's the type to only do good for benefit by then too). The only change would be him treating the Jamatos better, and done for plot irony in Riders being now the threats and Jamatos being defenders - perhaps the equivalent can be Kuroto treating Poppy better and shielded her from an attack. Quote:
He never really faces any consequences for this nor does it feel like he's truly regretful of all of his heinous acts but rather realized "Oh shit Ark would kill me too, better fight the thing I specifically made to try and wipe out humanity before it wipes out humanity".
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I mean. Michinaga's goal was to have the power to crush any Kamen Rider, forcing them out of the DGP to spare them the pain, death and suffering it causes with a 'the end justifies the means' attitude, realizing that Geats isn't just some glamorous fop but rather someone who after getting closure wanted to make a world where the DGP had no reason to exist meant that he could achieve his endgoal without having to sacrifice and trample over others, showing he doesn't like the things he did per se but rather felt they were truly needed. I don't get how you can read that as "Welp, I'm not able to do what I wanted, time to be friendly with a guy I have a venomous hate boner for just because he's stronger than me despite this happening constantly"
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However, I also think Gai received more punishment than people acknowledge. He's genuinely trying hard to atone for the mess he and ZAIA made, but other than Thouzer and Rin, nobody gives him a chance to prove he's changed and they continue to ostracize him for his past actions.
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The most complete non-wiki encyclopedias for Kamen Rider series (currently only found Ryuki and OOO's). Last edited by DreadBringer; 09-12-2023 at 03:05 PM.. |
09-12-2023, 03:58 PM | #22 |
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You mean RealTime? I don't recall which other Rider apparently owed their tragic backstory to Gai's actions, but considering how he caused the destruction of an entire city, there's probably a lot of people who could claim that. But yeah, I'm referring to post-show content, where he suffers some misfortune. He tried to reform ZAIA in to a good ethical company, but Isamu and Yua don't take him seriously and Metsuboujinrai blew it up before he could make any real progress. He tried to start from zero with his new company, Thouzer Intellion, but (and I'm not making this up) he got infected with Shin Dan Kuroto Kami-sama, who revived again and forcefully took over his position as president.
Fuwa and Yua have good reason to doubt his sincerity as I already explained and although I haven't seen the post series stuff so this is clearly just how it sounds to me, but Gai is wealthy so it seems to me that when starting a new company, he was in a significantly better shape than Aruto was when Gai forced him out of Hiden Industries. Getting infected by Dan the Man is fucking hilarious though and I welcome it, he does seem to actively be trying to atone but everything he did feels waaaay too big to ever make up for in his lifetime. Also, bringing up Kuroto is interesting here, he doesn't really *have* a redemption arc and is pretty much held on to a leash by the heroes, who still very much don't like him, while also holding a grudge against his dad which might have been a good motivator for him to be with the heroes for a while. I think the key difference is that while Kuroto technically had noble intentions if I remember correctly, he never really gets this redemption arc but is still a total dickweed the entire time whereas Gai has been a massive asshole only to turn to the camera and go "waaah my dad was strict so I'm not evil anymore". I can guarantee that Gai would have been more popular if he just stayed a villain the entire time, instead they pulled a Gangrel and nobody likes it when that happens lmao, haven't seen post series Ex-Aid stuff either so I don't know all the details that well tbf Quote:
Even if he'd prefer force Riders out, he'd not bat an eye if Riders died in his pursuit of goals (like Shirowe), including if he directly throws them under the bus (Keiwa, Ace, Niramu), if it can get closer to his plans. Before he'd also have no qualms murdering Neon because she was infected (he'd also wish her dead after she got cured) which carries over in how he approaches the phase 2 Jamatos. Though Ace's real circumstances behind his wishes manages to have him gradually let go of his worldview, it's not that what Michinaga did was what's necessary and needed, but it was him being blinded by his cynicism, to be so caught up in his negative bias, always assuming the worst in others and doing what "needs" to be done. Cynicism isn't the sensible approach people make it out to be (often being lauded over idealism), it's a dogmatic and narrow-minded view with unearned sense of superiority that leads to laziness, negligence, cruelty and callousness, even if you mean well.
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09-13-2023, 12:43 AM | #23 |
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Well, Asakura doesn't look happy either. And the king from Kiva rampaged with a sad, offended face, and the recent Akaishi in the end turned out to be an unhappy lonely man (although before that he smiled like the Joker), and even in Geats Girori himself does not seem particularly happy. The suffering villain is a fairly common type. |
09-13-2023, 01:19 AM | #24 |
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Sorry, can you explain the difference between the third and fourth options in the poll?
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09-13-2023, 01:31 AM | #25 |
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The third option is when the audience sees the villain's path to the light side. That is, the viewers sees when he begins to doubt, sees why, sees changes in him and that very transition. But at the same time, all this can only happen in the character?s head and he may not interfere in events or continue to play the role of an antagonist before fully became good. The fourth is about actions. The character apologizes, helps, saves people. What is in his head in this version is secondary, because everything is in plain sight. |
09-13-2023, 02:58 AM | #26 |
Avi by @CSarracenian
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Well, Asakura doesn't look happy either. And the king from Kiva rampaged with a sad, offended face, and the recent Akaishi in the end turned out to be an unhappy lonely man (although before that he smiled like the Joker), and even in Geats Girori himself does not seem particularly happy. The suffering villain is a fairly common type.
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09-13-2023, 02:59 AM | #27 |
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Same this and the fact him and Kuroto never really face any repercussions for their actions is why I Didn't like either of it
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09-13-2023, 07:48 AM | #28 |
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
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This'd be probably a wild assumption about you, but I sometimes can have thought that you'd want for all villains, of any kind, to get changed, because it can seem to me that in KR you prioritize paragons (e.g. most main Riders) changing and developing people around them for the better, and if you didn't get that, you'd blame the "supposed" paragon instead, because everyone is capable of change without exceptions. At least coming from you disagreeing with Ryuki's ending of it negating the changes happened to the Riders even if it'd revert the countless Rider War victims, but media often depicting mercy for a room of change as letting villains go, also gives a vibe of prioritizing change over the safety of people - it's worth the cost of to make them change no matter how long it is... I'd want to know more regarding redemptions you won't agree with, but other than those done in shows you dislike (Gaim, Revice) - I thought by this before you may not rank Geats above Zero-One with you listing 2 of latter's examples below.
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The reason you'd disagree with Micchy's redemption is because of the sheer crimes he committed? (I do think that he can fit pure evil too, but I'd be actually fine if they leave them being subdued at the end of ep. 46, rather than resolution at ep. 47) Or because there'd be other reason? (I'd hope you can be objective on this, regardless of it being Gaim) Because Gai's crimes rival Micchy's in scale with practically zero positive traits (like Ryoma) to 'balance'. Gai has corporate sabotage, conspiracy, genocide, vandalism, treason, abuse, incrimination, obstruction of justice, brainwashing, torture, terrorism, and the 1843 complaints involving age spoofing, faking reasons of absence, illegal auction bidding, illicit sales, misappropriation of company finances for personal benefit, plagiarizing technology, ossession of a fake bank account, sexual/moral harassment, tax evasion, etc.
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I wonder how'd you refer (other than Evolt fighting Killbus) to Kuroto (True Ending or Another Ending's Zombie Survival) or Masamune's (pleading for Kiriya to stop Kuroto) last seen actions. There are enough people who point out Kuroto wasn't redeemed and Daichi should be given similar treatment (he's the type to only do good for benefit by then too). The only change would be him treating the Jamatos better, and done for plot irony in Riders being now the threats and Jamatos being defenders - perhaps the equivalent can be Kuroto treating Poppy better and shielded her from an attack.
I mean, Gai is a very young-looking 45 year-old, so you might be underestimating his longevity.
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心 と 刃 Last edited by Sh Ranger; 09-13-2023 at 07:53 AM.. |
09-13-2023, 08:12 AM | #29 |
Avi by @CSarracenian
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I'm aware, but even if he was just as rich and powerful in his early 20's it wouldn't matter as again, he's done too much wrong for such a cheap redemption arc and he got Gangrel'ed which is a shame, I hated him when the show was airing but because he was such a fantastic villain that was able to make everyone in the fandom agree he's a massive asshole but for such a barebones tragic backstory that honestly doesn't explain jack shit as to why he did what he did. I can understand having a childhood filled with immense pressure like that can be very mentally damaging but it just doesn't make sense to me to have a character like that nearly wipe out the entire planet
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09-13-2023, 11:28 AM | #30 |
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No offense but I think there has to be a deliberate attempt at media illiteracy here if you're comparing someone who kills because he enjoys killing people without a shred of regret other than not being able to kill the man he wants to violently murder out of revenge as he's a violent sociopath to someone who did what he thought was needed to save the world and was deeply upset at causing another death after finding another way. Girori wanted Kamen Riders to be virtuous heroes and was upset by Geats not fitting his vision of an ideal Kamen Rider while also constantly winning which risked making his show boring, meaning he saw Geats as a threat to his business. These examples aren't very comparable
By the way, even if it?s off topic: it seemed to me that all Girori?s chatter about saving the world was empty chatter to lure more heroic guys into the show. That is, Hotaro or Eiji would most likely refuse to participate in the DGP because they have nothing to write on a piece of paper for wishes, but they would definitely take part in saving the world. However, many viewers, and the show itself, judging by the final episodes, take his words at face value. Maybe it's a cultural difference, but it doesn't work for me.How can one admire the heroism of the riders if they are essentially playing in the sandbox he created? How can you call them ?saviors of the world? if the main threat to this world is your game? That is, by allowing Dapan to participate, Girori literally personally added the option of the apocalypse to the list of options for the final of the DGP. So for me, his speeches about the heroism of the riders are the same as admiration for animals from a poacher. |
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