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12-08-2020, 10:48 AM | #1 |
NinninComic
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 745
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First arc of the show should be over with this week episode and while I didn't really want to make a review, I wanted to put some of my thoughts on "paper" and eventually have thoughts of others about it.
- First, the thought that made me want to make this topic : Does anyone else have a problem with the way KR Saber is telling its story ? I have two examples to illustrate what I mean : 1) The "Kento thought Calibur was his father VS Touma" Touma realized Kento thought Calibur was his father only in episode 10. I was disturbed by that as I thought this was an established fact from like episode 4 or 5 already. Always thought Touma knew that. But no. 2) The consequences of a fight with Calibur Was it clear for everyone what the fate of Kento was after losing to Calibur ? Was it clear that he would vanish from a curse or "special effect" of Ankokuken Kurayami and not "just die" or something ? Lot of people were thinking that he would simply die (or coma) at the end of Ep12, but then Ep13 start with the cast being like "we need to find Calibur, beat him, take ankokuken kurayami to find a way to reverse that curse/effect or whatever" and I was like "huh ? hello ? what curse ? how ? when was that established/explained or made clear ?" That's what I mean with Saber having a problem telling its story. I feel there is always something that should be known, but that is not. For the characters (like example 1), but also for us (example 2). I feel like the show is very clumsy at delivering informations to us. I almost wanted to include the "Kamen Rider Calibur" topic as well but it might be explained later. But that's still weirdly brought to us IMO. Was Fukamiya Hayato KR Calibur before the betrayal as "Calibur is a knight of sword of logos but he betrayed" or was he a totally different knight (like the previous espada) and "He betrayed and became KR Calibur". i think it could be made more clear without revealing anything. and I "fear" we would face a similar situation as example 2 above where it should be clear for the cast and not for us as if we should have known all along. - Next one is more obvious : KR Saber number of characters is too big and lore is potentially too big I know what some people will say, "it's not new for the KR franchise", "Gaim had a lot of riders and character to handle in its first arc too..." and that's true. But Saber particular lore make all the characters equally important. In Gaim, Gridon, Kurokage or even Bravo were obviously not going to be developed a lot. In Saber, while it's the same and some Riders won't be developed as well, each of them is presented as a member of Sword of Logos and is supposedly equal to the other. Plus the fact Saber lore can potentially say each of the riders had a mentor, a past, circumstances as to how they became a member of SoL, etc... Something we didn't really care about for Gaim Secondary (or even tertiary) characters. it's basically "Arthurian Mythology" (obvious inspiration) but you're not going to get a book focused on each rider here. At best Saber will be popular and go the Gaim route with V-cinemas or internet spin-offs in 6/7 years still. But I doubt it. Same problem with the Megid trio. 13 episodes in as of now, and basically they just grinned for the most part (Storius sealed Touma's driver once, and Zooos had a little backstory with Rintaro, and... that's all). I have no doubt these guys will be developed later (I'm not even sure), but considering we already have a problem telling the story of 6 protag riders, their presence from Ep1 already is a problem. I don't remember well how it was handled in a show like Drive before, but if I remember correctly Heart/Brain/Chase in the first arc were more proactive right ? At least Chase, but I think the other 2 as well. And then there's Tassel, the hooded Avalon guy and this particular dimension, Luna and her location (from where she can have enough influence to send a power up I guess), the southern base, etc... so many things still. The show feels like it can have one billion information and yet after 13 episodes it feels like they didn't bother beginning to explain anything (a bit like wasted time) I wanted to talk about other things (like Mei case) but that's already long enough ^^" Despite the negative thoughts I actually quite enjoy the show. it's mostly the first point that bothers me because it's the first time I feel disturbed that way, and see if I'm the only one or not. Last edited by Omnikaiser; 12-08-2020 at 10:51 AM.. |
12-08-2020, 11:31 AM | #2 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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Quote:
- Next one is more obvious :
KR Saber number of characters is too big and lore is potentially too big I know what some people will say, "it's not new for the KR franchise", "Gaim had a lot of riders and character to handle in its first arc too..." and that's true. But Saber particular lore make all the characters equally important. In Gaim, Gridon, Kurokage or even Bravo were obviously not going to be developed a lot. In Saber, while it's the same and some Riders won't be developed as well, each of them is presented as a member of Sword of Logos and is supposedly equal to the other. I think what's making this feel too much is the deluge of toys, rather. Personally I feel that these three are much more like recurring characters, but obviously a lot of others aren't quite getting that -- and no wonder when even outside of their introduction episode, their henshin blades and auxiliary forms and ridebooks are thrown at us repeatedly because Bandai wants us to buy them. To once again compare to the Gaim riders, they had no unique DX toy weapons and used the same driver as everyone else; their only unique toys were their lockseeds and accompanying plates. In comparison, these three all have their own unique driver AND unique power-up ridebook. Repeated appearances and shilling of these toys is necessitated for advertising them, so they don't slip into the background as naturally as Knuckle or Gridon could despite that being their role. And it's hardly limited to our auxiliary riders, either -- it's been 13 episodes and Touma has gotten three things that can be considered some sort of upgrade between King of Arthur, Crimson Dragon and now Dragonic Knight. Now before anyone gets on me for this, trust me, I KNOW that Dragonic Knight is the first actual upgrade form like Sparkling or Shining or Toucon and I know that the others fit more into auxiliary forms and the now obligatory mech... but all of them are treated as some sort of huge escalation, some sort of major event more than your usual auxiliary forms -- but oh no, don't worry; we've got a ridiculous amount of auxiliary forms, too! So many that Saber's gained a new form in like every episode and SO-DO is only getting to some October forms in friggin' January! This is a lot of rambling, but to TLDR it -- this is all directly related to how many toys there are, because each new toy necessitates focus and treating something like an event. There's little room for slower moments when any given episode will introduce a new henshin belt, a wonder combo and a new random Saber form; only for next episode to introduce the mech and two episodes later we're getting a major upgrade for the villain. Even aspects of these that are supposed to be minor like Kenzan's existence or Saber 3pigs have to be much more of a focus than they really should be. Compare again to Gaim, whose Q1 toyline consisted simply of one driver, extra lockseeds and a mech -- it simply had more room to breathe.
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12-08-2020, 11:52 AM | #3 |
NinninComic
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 745
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Quote:
I disagree with this specific assessment, even though I definitely agree that too much is being thrown at us in too little time. Buster, Kenzan and Slash all easily feel like the 'less important' characters to me; beyond their debut episode - where naturally they're gonna get the focus - they've been recurring characters with at best tangential background storylines. Our three Swordriver users and Calibur are the focus while the other three dip in and out of the series occasionally -- to use the same example as you, they feel VERY similar to Gridon, Kurokage and Bravo (though in my opinion far more interesting).
I agree that Touma/Rintaro/Kento are Gaim/Baron/Ryugen and even Zangetsu tier and Ogami/Ren/Daishinji are Gridon/Kurokage/Bravo tier and in the end it will obviously be like that in Saber. But where the problem lies (to me) is that Saber (the show) don't make a real distinction between these 2 kind of characters in lore/in show. If there was some kind of hierarchy in Sword of Logos (I don't know, with some being generals and others regular knights) and you see them do different things (general the important ones, regular knights less important). Saber tries to do that by making Buster/Kenzan not being in the actual show sometimes (Saber chronicles filled that part for a certain episode though) while Daishinji had a slow introduction. But when they are here, they do stuff the same as the main trio. They don't always have to fight less important characters. For example, when the main trio defeated Calibur, Daishinji took care of the monster of the week, that's true, but few episode before that when Touma had a strategy to fight Calibur and Megid, Kenzan fought Calibur. And Buster or Kenzan were allowed to fight Dezast a few times while main trio fought a monster of the week. So it's not always as simple. Gaim was more clear at what role a rider had. And you could potentially have way less questions about Hase/Jonouchi or Oren about their characters in-show than you could have for Ogami, Ren or Daishinji IMO (which surprisingly didn't prevent Gaim guys to have their own spin-off haha). Last edited by Omnikaiser; 12-08-2020 at 11:54 AM.. |
12-08-2020, 11:56 AM | #4 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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I don't think there needs to be a distinction beyond how they're treated -- there just being other Sword of Logos members is fine. There wasn't any real difference between Gridon/Kurokage and Baron/Ryugen either, because there didn't need to be -- the show's framing was enough to tell you who was important.
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12-08-2020, 12:03 PM | #5 |
NinninComic
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 745
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Exactly. Which is my (very minor) problem with Saber with the number of character (SoL, Megid, Mei, etc... included) it has. I find it less clear this time, while, paradoxically, there is potentially more to tell.
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12-08-2020, 08:08 PM | #6 |
Reiei
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 3,691
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So far I have four major issues with Saber. They don't really detract from my viewing of the series. I find Saber to be fine so far, despite the issues, but it's these three things that I do wish get touched on later in the series, or just be fixed.
1. There's not much to Touma apart from his memory-loss that makes him a protagonist we should follow. He has memory loss that he just got back. He hasn't done much in the first quarter that takes his character somewhere. He uses every WRBs he can get his hands on (Love how Ren kinda pokes fun at this at his resetsudan), fights Megid, and screams "KENTO!". He hasn't done much in the way that makes him stand out from the rest of SOL. 2. Kento is really dumb, isn't he? From how I saw it, Kento is supposed to be treated as some tragic character. "Oh woe is me, with a betrayer of a father! No, wait, he got killed by a close friend! Woe is me!" But he just comes off as kind of impulsive and dumb. When he left to fight Calibur for the second time, he knows that he has zero chance beating Calibur, yet he decides to go alone and the only way that anyone in SOL would have found him is a hint that he gives to Touma in the off-chance that he gets his memories back. He could have told any of the swordsmen prior to this fight that Calibur has a new powerful form and any of them (especially Ren) would have helped him out against Calibur. No, he goes out himself because "I have to do this by my own hands!" and ends up getting the short end of the stick, and we're suppose to feel bad for him. Now, maybe he's not supposed to be tragic or something like that. Maybe we're suppose to view his character as more "Why in the world would you do that?" instead of "Oh no, Kento!". I hope when he comes back they at least address how foolish he was in Q1. Give him an upgrade to seal that deal too, maybe. 3. What was the trial specifically? Avalon guy alludes to a trial that Touma has been secretly entrusted upon after getting the big silver book and King Of Arthur. But we're not even explained what this trial is and/or how Touma passed it. Tassel's bit in every beginning of the episode would have served a good use of Avalon guy maybe giving us some exposition about it or have Avalon guy whisper it to Touma which would make Touma being fixated on King Of Arthur during the early episodes make more sense. Nah, he kinda just passes it. My guess is that the "trial" is to Believe in your friends and Never give up or something like that? I don't know. 4. Why do the Megid wanna merge the Wonder world and Earth? And why are they so lacking in character? Maybe their endgame will be explained later and/or has been explained and I forgot, but each episode they just talk amongst themselves about how evil they are. Storious seems to be the only one who has a legit plan in mind (he might betray the other two, just look at him!) with him conspiring with Calibur often. But Zoouos and Legeiel have only been doing their same exact thing for a while. And coming off of Zero-One where the "main baddies", MBJR.NET, have a very colorful and memorable cast of members, the Megid have been pretty lackluster for me. They only smile and conspire with themselves, they don't talk to Calibur or Dezast outside of Storious, they mention that one of them is mad because their last plan failed yet we seem them completely chill without a scene of them actually being mad. Aside from Zoouos maybe, but he's always mad. I hope later episodes give these guys some backstory, they just seem too "twirling mustache" bad guys for me so far. Those three are pretty much my main issues. My issue with Touma isn't too big since he's the MC and he has 40-ish(?) more episodes for us to follow him with. My issue with Kento is the biggest one, and I hope, HOPE that they fix him. Avalon guy isn't much either as well, and the Megid are bad guys so they might not actually get the development too. There are also some small nitpicks I have that are pretty much off to the side for me, such as -If Ogami and Hayato are such close friends, how much he doesn't talk about him much? Or get some info about Hayato from him? -What's Dezast's deal? -Does one WRB equal to one swordsman/Kamen Rider that possessed that specific book? Ogami alludes to it when they first meet Dezast. -Who was the previous Espada? -What are they gonna do with Mei? That's pretty much all for me. |
12-08-2020, 10:03 PM | #7 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,510
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My question is: how long will the south Swords of Logos' swordsmen & swordswomen be revealed to us?
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12-08-2020, 10:40 PM | #8 |
WONDER RIDER
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,713
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My thoughts? Saber is more flash than substance: catchy jingles, awesome suits and impressive sets but the story is meh (at the moment). Hoping we get to see more fleshed out backstories and details on the Riders as there's a lot of potential with them (e.g. Kenzan's background, who did Buster have a kid with, where's Espada's dad, what happened to Blades' parents, etc).
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12-08-2020, 10:44 PM | #9 |
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Posts: 3,510
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Quote:
My thoughts? Saber is more flash than substance: catchy jingles, awesome suits and impressive sets but the story is meh (at the moment). Hoping we get to see more fleshed out backstories and details on the Riders as there's a lot of potential with them (e.g. Kenzan's background, who did Buster have a kid with, where's Espada's dad, what happened to Blades' parents, etc).
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12-09-2020, 12:04 AM | #10 |
WONDER RIDER
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,713
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You don't need multiple people together for good scenes. Just having two or three people is enough. I'd have COVID as an excuse for action scenes, not plot.
Although if COVID really is the issue, then that makes me wonder why bothering with the large cast of Riders. Less people more safety right?
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