[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Where Shun can be scared by the terrible glory of bathroom holes

I want you to know that I see you and I appreciate you.

[Androzani84]

So for a fun fact, Shun’s mother is voiced by the same VA as Virgo. No wonder she freaked him out.

Also, I said back in the teens of this rewatch that Tachibana originally had a different name in the planning stage, and I’ll now reveal that the name was Emoto. They changed it because they realised that the guys whose name is “Otome” backwards might be a likely candidate for Virgo in the minds of the audience. As you’ve seen, they still found a use for the name.

Also, the surprise return of Rocket States. I guess someone just wanted to reuse the suit.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

I want you to know that I see you and I appreciate you.

You are welcome and/or I'm sorry!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

So for a fun fact, Shun?s mother is voiced by the same VA as Virgo. No wonder she freaked him out.

...see, now I'm thinking that it was Virgo calling out to Shun when he was in the shower, not his mom, with Emoto laughing to himself about how he was tricking this kid before unleashing his holes on him in the bathroom. Emoto's gotta find the fun in this inappropriate plan!

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER FOURZE EPISODE 41 - “ALL CLUB ACTIVITY CEASES”

Where Shun can be scared by the terrible glory of bathroom holes, and JK’s just permanently terrified, Miu reacts to Virgo’s threats with the type of unbending steel and smirking resolve that comes from being the best President the KRC ever had, or ever will have. In a series full of heroic declarations, and an episode full of powerful moments of vulnerability, the scene of Miu first telling a murderous Horoscope that they’ve already lost to Fourze without knowing it, and then backing down (with spite and venom) only because an innocent person would be in the crosshairs if Miu fought back… series highlight for me. Miu’s my favorite Rider on this show.

It's like Akiko in W before about how Miu isn't fearful in the face of danger because she believes the Riders would come to the rescue. And yeah, Shun is weaker, mentally, despite being someone who actually has a protection in Power Dizer like the Riders. But Miu's belief is still tested as it's not that easy for Fourze and Meteor to try protecting the KRC members from Virgo, particularly with him losing access to Cosmic States due to Tomoko's disappearence. I feel though, the Zodiarts or Horoscopes would consistently try to attack people anyway, and it shouldn't be different of which people they attack if they're KRC members or not, so I feel that the others quitting is the plot/writer bending around Tachibana, unless, perhaps, powerscaling is brought up in-universe where there's a visible breakdown in the group that Fourze can't accomplish much anymore without Cosmic States, as Tomoko wasn't there, thus the people in the group quits to prevent further damage, but what's left on is Meteor Storm which isn't affected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

But the training montage itself just feels like it’s killing time, and trying to provide an amount of Suit Action that the plot more or less is not equipped to provide, at least in a configuration that would move the plot along. It’s visually pleasing, in a stunt show -slash- Taisen conclusion way – explosions and wirework at Kamen Rider Quarry – but it feels like not the sort of thing this show needs right this second. (It doesn’t help that Training To Not Need Friendships feels like a non-starter for Gentarou, even if he’s reluctant to ask his friends to endanger themselves to defeat the Horoscopes. Like, this is not a good plan thematically!) It’s slightly goofy, just after Yuuki’s stark terror and Miu’s gritted sacrifice, and I don’t… it sort of feels weird here? Without the show acknowledging how weird it is?

I guess Tachibana is this show's answer to Shroud in the 2 previous series before this, where he consistently hides himself under a mask, and he acts as a mentor to the heroes who looks down on virtue and wants to turn them dark, while also running both sides. It seems that someone who wants to be as secretive as possible is inherently untrustworthy, not only for this series but for other media I'm following too. Tachibana wasn't exactly trustworthy either yeah, but dunno about Ryusei choosing to trust a full-on psycho in Aries to bring back Jiro. This is all setup, so I guess it's what you consistently didn't care for, where Tachibana's endgame isn't exactly known yet. Tachibana previously tested Ryusei if he wanted to help the KRC or not, of which he got Meteor Storm upgrade when he chose to visit them, while also disapproving of him murdering Fourze to take away his powers for doing so, where now Tachibana wants to make Gentaro into a killing machine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Speaking of weird: Hayami! Yes, we are at the dawn of the Tachibana endgame, so it makes sense that Hayami would be here for it. (wink!) He’s hilariously squirrelly and cowardly here, suddenly unclear on what Gamou’s doing, how it’s going to affect him, and who all is even in the goddamn group he’s been operating alongside the past year, which is a plot development that strains credulity, even if it delivers some fun distractions vis a vis Leo threatening a petrified Libra, which is always a good thing for the show to bring back. Hayami not knowing what exactly he signed up for after enacting a major portion of this plan and now getting the first frosty toes of cold feet is just… like, it feels poorly motivated, at least for its speed and impetus, if not for its result. I am not sure why Hayami is acting like he just joined this group, and it’s bizarre to think he’s been neck-deep in Switch Distro without an inkling of where this was all heading. But he’s a sweaty mess now, which is one my favorite modes for that actor, so I’ll let it play out.

Man, I guess I was too impatient to talk about how Kousei Amano is in the current airing show as well as in the current show I'm watching, this is the better pun of Amano's role in both series at once, and an increased prominence of him when they moved Tachibana's plot more. Emoto as Seeker's dad as said above, is another case of Fourze actor returning in a Takahashi show, and there's also Ryuji Sato who was Hound Zodiarts, and later becoming Zitt in Geats. Leo is someone really strong in Zodiarts form, and he can fight off Dustards in his human form too. I wonder if it applies to another Zodiarts or at least Horoscopes, outside of at least Sugiura breaking the laws of physics as Taurus. Tachibana (Hayami) seems to have more doubt now because, I guess, just like Tachibana (Virgo) being secretive towards the KRC, Gamou also feels secretive and untrustworthy to not have everything told to Hayami like Emoto's real identity or Gamou's own goals.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

*I think one of the problems I have with this story, and maybe the ones right before it, is that there's a difference for me between a Zodiart and a Horoscope -- while the Zodiarts are shown as wounded souls being preyed upon by folks like Scorpio and Libra, the Horoscopes are largely presented as making a conscious, albeit misguided, choice. Sugiura is warped by both the Switch (ostensibly) and his love for Sayaka (definitely) but he still serves Gamou and Hayami while enslaving the school. It's neat that Gentarou's typically able to see past Sugiura's poor choices to find the big-hearted kid beneath them, but his actions were still cruel and villainous. I don't know that eventually regretting them should absolve him of whatever enmity the rest of the school may have for him, and it's kind of pushing it for me for Gentarou to forgive him on behalf of the whole school. If he were just a Zodiart, maybe; as a Horoscope? I feel like we are narratively outside the bounds Pobody's Nerfect! Feels like Sugiura should have to earn his enslaved classmates' forgiveness! I am pretty sure we were just in a two-episode story about the value of independence and personal decision-making!!!

I felt that Gentaro is personally affected by Sugiura's rules as well, in similar way as his actions to the other students, as Gentaro has to wear an uniform and make his hairstyle normal. So I don't know if it's about Gentaro being separate from the other students Sugiura has affected, which can be seemingly what happens to complaints about villains being forgiven by the heroes that the fanbase sees as detached/separate from the villain's victim's problems. It's what Sugiura was all about, where if the students cannot be like Gentaro there like not listening to the rules, he'd forcibly make them like that via brainwashing.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I guess a fitting punishment for Sugiura would've been for him to get beat up by those he imposed his rules on, like how Gentarou let Makise get beat up by the girls he attempted to murder? His student council even abducted the cat idol Mina, so he no doubt made a lot of enemies who won't forgive him easily, at least not without Gentarou vouching for him changing his ways. Perhaps it's for the best that the plot managed to get around this dilemma by sending him to the Dark Nebula.

I wonder about how Sugiura is seen as deserving of this kind of punishment unlike the other Zodiarts, would it be about like Die of viewing the Zodiarts and Horoscopes as different? (dunno what'd be your thoughts to what should happen to other current Horoscopes by this, other than the previous two in Capricorn and Aquarious, as well as Emoto), and I wonder if you'd think he doesn't deserve this if he didn't pull the move he did to Meteor or if Meteor legitimately lost, but still have the rest of his crimes the same (brainwashing others to make them and the school lawful).

As said above, a hero accepting a redeemed villain, even if not easily, may be seen as pushing to have it done at the behalf of the villain's victims, of which, many brought this up towards villains who has murdered many, as the damage they do are irreversible, thus they're the ones seen as irredeemable. Maybe the popular take by this is that, Sugiura wouldn't fit said irredeemable criteria and maybe viewed similarly as those who commit petty or victimless crimes, such as theft, vandalism, or speeding, as his villainy can just be undone by removing the brainwashing, and everything would be normal again, like how those crimes in said list can be undone by them returning, compensating, or repairing stuff, thus they're seen as redeemable (or have people downplay them as never being bad in the first place as they never murdered anyone), while for something like murder, it can't be undone (and not all fantasy settings also can).

To vouch for characters like Gentaro to at least let people like Makise or Sugiura being beaten up by their victims, is why people also vouch for characters like Shinji to stop being so "soft" and go pay evil unto evil against the threats, where the people they're talking about are people who are at least as bad as Makise or worse (even if they're more likable to audience to watch such as Asakura), such as Sudo, Jun (Shibaura, not Shigeno), or Asakura. You may see punishing cruelty with more cruelty different to Gentaro letting those people be beaten up, but it seems to be a lesser version of it based on how for those who complain about superheroes having a "no kill rule", if they can't do it, at least in their eyes, they have to let other more ruthless anti-heroes kill those villains they refuse to dirty their hands for.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I mean Nakamura might've been okay with it at the time as an occasional comedic OOC thing. Maybe he simply got complacent and didn't realize how far Sanjo would go with it to the point of it becoming the thing Yuki is mostly remembered for. I don't agree with it either as I prefer the more realistic nerdy Yuki, but I think there was merit to her quirky depiction in the Hound Zodiart arc, back when that wasn't her default state so the contrast actually worked for the joke there.

Yeah, my beef isn't on the Hound Zodiarc, but about if someone is made to be a jerk, as you noted about Yuki's response to Erin, to fulfill the flanderization or comedic stuff. Many people refuse to acknowledge a character as being jerkish if that moment is seen as "merely" being played for comedy, such as a tsundere who abuses their person of interest. Just joking justification is abused everywhere to paint the victim as just being a snowflake, where the perpetrator, like the bullies, is viewed as doing nothing wrong for being funny and entertaining.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

But Miu's belief is still tested as it's not that easy for Fourze and Meteor to try protecting the KRC members from Virgo, particularly with him losing access to Cosmic States due to Tomoko's disappearence.

I think it's also, like, Miu leaving the Club when it's the last thing she wants to do, but she has to do it keep other people safe... that's exactly what Gentarou's doing by letting his friends leave the Club, even though it's the last thing he wants to do? Her and Gen, they're fundamentally the same, and I think it's great for the show to have the non-powered characters (or Miu, at least) show the same heartbreaking calculus as the Kamen Riders. It's one of the best things in the episode!

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

But the training montage itself just feels like it’s killing time, and trying to provide an amount of Suit Action that the plot more or less is not equipped to provide, at least in a configuration that would move the plot along. It’s visually pleasing, in a stunt show -slash- Taisen conclusion way – explosions and wirework at Kamen Rider Quarry – but it feels like not the sort of thing this show needs right this second. (It doesn’t help that Training To Not Need Friendships feels like a non-starter for Gentarou, even if he’s reluctant to ask his friends to endanger themselves to defeat the Horoscopes. Like, this is not a good plan thematically!) It’s slightly goofy, just after Yuuki’s stark terror and Miu’s gritted sacrifice, and I don’t… it sort of feels weird here? Without the show acknowledging how weird it is?

I will say, my memory of this episode is definitely disproportionately dominated by Tachibana Flies Around On A Goofy Jetpack, at the expense of most of the drama that gets us to that point.

I will also say, I think part of that comes from how appropriately endgame-y it feels, while still being something that lightens the overall mood back down to usual Fourze levels? Fundamentally, it was just kinda weird to see Tachibana doing *anything* that isn't floating up in space, so even just that disruption to the status quo comes off as an event. To then top that off with the extra layer to the Virgo identity reveal was likewise pretty killer. I remember people guessing Emoto was Virgo the second he showed up, presumably having noticed the joke of his name, but I wonder if him being Tachibana on top of that was also on everybody's Fourze bingo cards at the time? Sort of hard to recall, at this point.

Oh, and the other big thing from this episode I remember is how exceedingly polite it was of the show to wait until Mega Max was released on video to bring in Rocket States for a guest appearance. It felt pretty nice to still have the full context even as an overseas fan who had only seen the movie like, man, probably only a month prior at most?

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Oh, and the other big thing from this episode I remember is how exceedingly polite it was of the show to wait until Mega Max was released on video to bring in Rocket States for a guest appearance.

Ha ha, I definitely thought that the DVD must've come out around now! Rocket States is a gorgeous suit, so I'm never mad about seeing it, but it felt a little weird to have the show directly reference the crossover film so late in the season. Marketing synergy! It's like the home video division doing the Gentarou Handshake with the television division!

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER FOURZE EPISODE 42 - “REIGN OF THE ARCHER”



Like, of course Gentarou would want to make friends with Emoto/Tachibana/Virgo/etc.

It’s a declaration followed by a classic Kengo flip-out, where he cannot seriously believe that Gentarou would show up for a second afterschool training session with a Horoscope who likely murdered at least two of their friends, and has been manipulating them on multiple axes for almost a year by now. But, again, of course Gentarou would do that. There’s the logic to his belief – Virgo is up to something that he doesn’t want the other Horoscopes to know about, their missing friends likely aren’t dead, and backing Meteor clearly isn’t something that’d help the Horoscopes – but there’s also just the belief of Gentarou. Gen is sure there’s someone in there he can befriend, and he won’t discount the possibility just because it seems outlandish. If there’s a chance you can befriend someone, you’ve got to take it.

This is a whole episode that’s about that belief, and the way friendship as a concept is a multiplier to the friendships themselves. Gen gains things from JK, Miu, Shun, and Yuuki being around, but he can still be their friend by supporting them when they’re not around, and they’re no less his friends – and their friendship is no less valuable – for a lack of constancy to their appearances. Gen cheering them on from afar boosts his spirits in the same way having them in his life on a daily basis boosts his spirits, giving a new understanding to Cosmic States. As long as he believes in his friends and wants them to be happy, the friendship has power, and so does Cosmic States.

It’s all of a piece with 25/26, where what we’re talking about is how these people will all be pulled in different directions soon enough, but that doesn’t eliminate the bonds between them. The speech Gen gives here… it’s an acknowledgement that the end is near, but instead of last episode’s melancholy, we get a cheerful vow that they’ll all hold this time in their hearts forever, taking the KRC with them wherever the future might lead.

Where it’s leading them right this second is into a whole bunch of Horoscopes drama, with varying levels of severity.

First, Emoto/Tachibana/Virgo can append “/Corpse” to that long list of appellations, because no sooner than we get a beaming smile from Professor Alias to signify a turned leaf and a heartfelt embrace of Gen’s philosophy towards friendship, then we also get him being IMMEDIATELY ATTACKED by Sagittarius, giving us our first out-and-out fight between the fully-powered Riders and the main Horoscope, which naturally goes incredibly and combustibly terrible for the heroes. It’s the point in the story where the heroes need to know exactly how outmatched they are, which is Utterly. The fight itself is fiery, but kind of standard: Sagittarius no-sells, every attack is blocked or negated, and the villain leaves with an insulting and dismissive air. It’s not what the episode’s built around (that’d be Gen’s speech and Emoto’s change of heart) so it doesn’t really detract, but I found it a little formulaic. Useful to the narrative, but not especially dramatic.

Elsewhere, we got Emoto’s brief escape to implore Kengo to keep on Kengoin’ on, without imparting any new information that’d help the team combat the Horoscopes – who Sagittarius or Libra are, for example, seems like that could’ve been quick and come in handy – before getting murdered by an enraged Leo and a taunting Libra. Emoto got a nice little arc of all of this, getting redeemed by Gen’s unwavering faith in the power of friendship, and then he needed to shuffle off the stage before he could speed up the story. It’s the Fourze way!

It really was the most Fourze episode, for better or worse. Gen’s speech is a series highlight, framing the idea of friendship as being a universal power separate and additive to the friends in your life, while the various Horoscope shenanigans treat Quickly Telling The KRC Vital Intel as though Toei’s hitmen are enforcing people’s silence. (Backstory about yourself and your personal failings? Sure! All day! But if you even think about saying “Gamou is Sagittarius”, you are better off spending that moment buying your own coffin.) But, as always, I am here for characters over plot, so they can indulge that hoary trope until the stars go out, as long as I get speeches like Gentarou’s.

[Sh Ranger]

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Originally Posted by Sunred

I don't know about these days, but it definitely is worth checking out because I feel like Spirits gave ZX (pronounced Zecross for those still not sure of how to call him) a resurgence like none other during the 2000s.

Speaking of unapparent pronunciations, there's also Cross-Z (kurōzu), who sounds like the opposite of ZX.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I felt that Gentaro is personally affected by Sugiura's rules as well, in similar way as his actions to the other students, as Gentaro has to wear an uniform and make his hairstyle normal.

I mean, Gentarou's gakuran is still a uniform, just not the Amanogawa uniform.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I wonder about how Sugiura is seen as deserving of this kind of punishment unlike the other Zodiarts, would it be about like Die of viewing the Zodiarts and Horoscopes as different? (dunno what'd be your thoughts to what should happen to other current Horoscopes by this, other than the previous two in Capricorn and Aquarious, as well as Emoto), and I wonder if you'd think he doesn't deserve this if he didn't pull the move he did to Meteor or if Meteor legitimately lost, but still have the rest of his crimes the same (brainwashing others to make them and the school lawful).

The corrupted Zodiarts and cognizant Horoscopes distinction is a factor, but for me, it's mostly due to the severity of Sugiura's crimes on the same level as Makise's. Both of their powers involved controlling large groups of people against their will. Taurus breaking his own contract with Meteor was an additional evil, but his actions before that point were already terrible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

As said above, a hero accepting a redeemed villain, even if not easily, may be seen as pushing to have it done at the behalf of the villain's victims, of which, many brought this up towards villains who has murdered many, as the damage they do are irreversible, thus they're the ones seen as irredeemable. Maybe the popular take by this is that, Sugiura wouldn't fit said irredeemable criteria and maybe viewed similarly as those who commit petty or victimless crimes, such as theft, vandalism, or speeding, as his villainy can just be undone by removing the brainwashing, and everything would be normal again, like how those crimes in said list can be undone by them returning, compensating, or repairing stuff, thus they're seen as redeemable (or have people downplay them as never being bad in the first place as they never murdered anyone), while for something like murder, it can't be undone (and not all fantasy settings also can).

Except in this setting though, murder can and has been undone and atoned for, as we saw with Ryusei's murder of Gentarou. It's also important to point out that murder isn't the only crime that's virtually impossible to undo. Like I said about Tomoko, it would've turned out badly for her if Emoto hadn't saved her, as her mental health is tied to how she expresses herself to others. You can undo brainwashing, but you can't undo trauma like turning off a Switch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER FOURZE EPISODE 42 - ?REIGN OF THE ARCHER?

This is a whole episode that?s about that belief, and the way friendship as a concept is a multiplier to the friendships themselves. Gen gains things from JK, Miu, Shun, and Yuuki being around, but he can still be their friend by supporting them when they?re not around, and they?re no less his friends ? and their friendship is no less valuable ? for a lack of constancy to their appearances. Gen cheering them on from afar boosts his spirits in the same way having them in his life on a daily basis boosts his spirits, giving a new understanding to Cosmic States. As long as he believes in his friends and wants them to be happy, the friendship has power, and so does Cosmic States.

Gentarou's epic speech is further emphasized by his friends showing up and defying Virgo's ultimatum, which ironically shows a level of ruthlessness empowered by friendship that Tachibana believed could only be obtained by discarding friendship. In a way, he did end up teaching Gentarou an important moral that allowed him to access Cosmic States on his own, but Tachibana didn't expect to also learn a moral from Gentarou that being on your own isn't the same as being alone. Friendship is strong enough to cross even the infinite void of space, which is totally a fitting message for this show.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

In a way, he did end up teaching Gentarou an important moral that allowed him to access Cosmic States on his own, but Tachibana didn't expect to also learn a moral from Gentarou that being on your own isn't the same as being alone.

I'd imagine Emoto was also slightly surprised that a speech about how friendship doesn't require constant companionship was concluded by all of Gentarou's showing up in person, slightly undercutting Gentarou's beautiful point about the invisible and infinite bonds of friendship.

(I'm kidding! It's totally appropriate for JK, Shun, Yuuki and Miu to affirm in person that their friendship with Gentarou is larger than their fear of what Virgo might do to them, while also being a rousing and heroic visual! But it's still sort of undermining Gentarou's point!)