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07-05-2023, 07:24 PM | #11 |
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I believe Keiwa when he tells Michinaga, "I haven't changed". This evil trait didn't manifest externally, it's a subtle behavior that's been dormant inside Keiwa all this time and Sara's tragic death caused it to surface. While many people were mistaking Keiwa as "Kagami 2.0.", I called it from the first episode that there was something wrong with this dude.
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I think the most deceptive thing about Keiwa is that he loves to talk about noble concepts like world peace, justice and respect, except there's always a layer of cynicism and self-entitlement. He wants these things cause he's sick and tired of all the bad people in the world screwing things up. While a conventional hero does good deeds without expectation of reward, Keiwa does good deeds and hides his bitterness towards others for not doing the same. Some people may be surprised to see their "Tycoon with a bleeding heart" suddenly doing evil stuff like selling out Tsumuri to Jit, but for me, this is consistent with my observations of the sinister subtext about him. Keiwa is a hypocrite and what could be more hypocritical than him sacrificing Ace's big sister to get back his own big sister? Even without Sara's tragic death, I imagine he would've snapped eventually anyway.
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I can agree with this, but I think the reason why some people I've seen online are so split on the this direction with Keiwa's character is because it's a bit too subtle, like if we actively saw Keiwa slowly getting more frustrated visually & overtly over the course of the series I think it would flow much more naturally for people. Like you said, I do think the pieces are all there and how we got here does make sense if you stop to think about, but I think a little less subtlety might've helped a bit here.
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07-06-2023, 01:15 AM | #12 |
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You aren't a hero simply by having good intentions. As you said there, there's cruelty in the path of revenge, "same" idealist hero has little to no cruelty - more important than having good intentions. He's currently a well-intentioned extremist anti-villain, doing the same thing as Suel did - kidnapping Tsumuri, turning her into a Goddess against her will, potentially kickstarting another DGP, to achieve his wish. Albeit ofc, he'd be a straight hero previously, but alignment change happens that now he's an anti-villain, but as his redemption would be expected, he'd be 'temporarily' turning anti-villainous.
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Though otherwise I don't like the view "too much power corrupts/drove him crazy", as it implies only powerful people can be vile and cruel, and that weak people are inherently good and innocent, when they're possibly only harmless, but can be as vile in their mind just doesn't have the means to act on their ideals.
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07-06-2023, 09:50 AM | #13 |
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I can agree with this, but I think the reason why some people I've seen online are so split on the this direction with Keiwa's character is because it's a bit too subtle, like if we actively saw Keiwa slowly getting more frustrated visually & overtly over the course of the series I think it would flow much more naturally for people. Like you said, I do think the pieces are all there and how we got here does make sense if you stop to think about, but I think a little less subtlety might've helped a bit here.
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Man, this description is actually personally relatable. Otherwise, about people being surprised of Keiwa resorting to this, dunno if people, those who want to watch Kamen Rider for the spirit of heroism (l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶K̶e̶k̶e̶r̶a̶), may just be disappointed of how the only character they see fit for this, Keiwa, also becomes sinister like others, making the series too much for them to bear (like your problem for series like Gaim). And if he would've eventually snapped without relating to Sara, guess some people'd insist he'd not have turned out this way if others don't "dismiss" or "mistreat" him or such, so only putting the blame in others to turn Keiwa like this (this can already happen in even pure evil characters when they had tragic backstory) and get the "karma" of Keiwa giving them the taste of their own medicine if he doesn't choose to be "nice" (which is what I fear honestly, to perpetuate the view of kindness is weakness and cruelty is strength, when he has a new form to succeed).
Not sure why they won't acknowledge the spirit of heroism in Neon though, as she's fighting for true love, which is more heroic than merely saving lives. I guess Keiwa is kind of a more realistic depiction of Kouta (who also had a big sister), where Ace, Neon, Michinaga and Tsumuri actually call him out, instead of giving him the Hero's License to get away with some bad deeds.
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07-06-2023, 10:52 AM | #14 |
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But in the mentioned Desire Star there was a scene where Sae votes against herself, then Neon runs away in tears to say goodbye to her, and in the next episode, Ace and Keiwa figure out the true Star from dubious actions and words, although it is obvious that Sae would not sacrifice her dream for any of the guys. Or remember at least the Goddess of Creation, in which Ace's mother was suspected, as soon as she was first mentioned, and the immortal Fox himself (who, moreover, knew more than the audience) needed a direct explanation and a meeting with the statue to realize this. So the viewers has enough reason to recognize the characters as idiots.
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07-06-2023, 09:39 PM | #15 |
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But in the mentioned Desire Star there was a scene where Sae votes against herself, then Neon runs away in tears to say goodbye to her, and in the next episode, Ace and Keiwa figure out the true Star from dubious actions and words, although it is obvious that Sae would not sacrifice her dream for any of the guys. Or remember at least the Goddess of Creation, in which Ace's mother was suspected, as soon as she was first mentioned, and the immortal Fox himself (who, moreover, knew more than the audience) needed a direct explanation and a meeting with the statue to realize this. So the viewers has enough reason to recognize the characters as idiots.
Also Ace didn't that much about the inner workings of the DGP, the only things he knew very well was how to play the game, the rules, and what happens to players when they lose (memory/desire loss & unable to return if they die, he did not know players turned into Jamato). He's been shown to not know/be caught off guard by things such as not knowing that the Gamemaster was a Rider, he had a hunch about the DGP having an audience but didn't know for sure, he didn't know how the DGP selected players, and he didn't know how the DGP granted wishes. |
07-06-2023, 09:56 PM | #16 |
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The funny thing here is that I liked what they were doing with Keiwa, but at the same time, I'm starting to feel a little conflicted with how it's being executed. Granted, it's not as bad as Daiji, but I do kind of feel like, even barring broken irrational behavior, it still feels a little too extreme in cases.
Maybe it's just me, but anyway, Bujin Tycoon is now one of my favorite forms this season (this season has too many good ones). The music was fantastic, and I love how clearly more animalistic and brutal Tycoon's fighting style is now, which I guess means this is this season's Berserker Form in a sense. Next Episode: Meet the new Papa Rider! *And Batman*
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07-07-2023, 12:59 AM | #17 |
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The second example doesn't make much sense, why would Ace immediately make the assumption that the Goddess is his mother? Until the end of the JGP the only thing the main trio know about the Goddess is that she's a thing & that the DGP uses her to grant wish, nothing else. For all Ace knows his mother could've used the Goddess to wish for him to reincarnate over and over, and possibly wished for herself to never be found. His mother could've also a been running or be very high management for the DGP, for him to immediately assume the Goddess IS his mother would be complete leap in logic considering how little information he has to go off of.
Also Ace didn't that much about the inner workings of the DGP, the only things he knew very well was how to play the game, the rules, and what happens to players when they lose (memory/desire loss & unable to return if they die, he did not know players turned into Jamato). He's been shown to not know/be caught off guard by things such as not knowing that the Gamemaster was a Rider, he had a hunch about the DGP having an audience but didn't know for sure, he didn't know how the DGP selected players, and he didn't know how the DGP granted wishes. |
07-08-2023, 08:29 AM | #18 |
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Considering the theme of parasocial relationships in this show, I think the fans' contention over Keiwa's development might even be the outcome that Takahashi intended to happen. Some people got so attached to this character from the start, or rather, they got attached to this idealistic static image of a pitiful underdog soba-eating good guy, that they resisted the idea that he could be anything else. This is a fallacy of the viewer perspective, that viewers can project too much and get offended when the character to whom they relate doesn't live up to their expectations. I think the moral here is that characters are individuals, not only archetypes. You can't just murder anybody's family and expect them to become Kazami Shirou.
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Not sure why they won't acknowledge the spirit of heroism in Neon though, as she's fighting for true love, which is more heroic than merely saving lives. I guess Keiwa is kind of a more realistic depiction of Kouta (who also had a big sister), where Ace, Neon, Michinaga and Tsumuri actually call him out, instead of giving him the Hero's License to get away with some bad deeds.
Seems that any dream for themselves (and sure you define selfish as anything done for yourself, but those people are using selfish term as in, they're shitty people) are seen as greed, no matter what, and by the require of suffering, they want heroes to "not be tempted by greed" and always give up anything they have or they can have like said wish for others, or at least for family, they have to always choose sacrifice over anything else (of which using a wish for others would be seen as a sacrifice for potential benefit). Also seems that many people has either/or mindset, where you can only be one thing or the other, can't be both, like you can only care about your dreams OR being good to others, when you can be both - do good deeds outside of main goal - and if someone has personal main goal, anything good they do is twisted as only done for ulterior motives (like you know who), or either ignore the moments (not their big character moment or such). Heroes are those who have positive qualities and regularly do good to others, and sacrifice is only one kind of good deed not only one - and felt like there can be double standard if Ittetsu got praised for this, while Neon's got perhaps overlooked or twisted, Ittetsu's wish is also for personal. It seems that anything Rider-related on Geats is treated as DGP game (other than likely Ace's DGP now, and you did too..), thus it may be also seen as another ulterior motive even though... the show displays Chirami being baffled over Keiwa and Neon urging to help people against JGP without rewards (and Ace pointing out that to them as well) to emphasize that it's the Riders' own will to fight. We also know that protecting lives shouldn't be the end, but the ultimate good is protecting happiness, but many people seem to downplay and diminish bad deeds if it's not murder because people can bounce back from it, lacking sympathy for people's problem in life overall, unless it's death as it can't be reversed (unless depends on the show's setting), thus those who save lives, or even villains not killing anyone, can be glorified as saints or never did anything wrong. Quote:
The second example doesn't make much sense, why would Ace immediately make the assumption that the Goddess is his mother? Until the end of the JGP the only thing the main trio know about the Goddess is that she's a thing & that the DGP uses her to grant wish, nothing else. For all Ace knows his mother could've used the Goddess to wish for him to reincarnate over and over, and possibly wished for herself to never be found. His mother could've also a been running or be very high management for the DGP, for him to immediately assume the Goddess IS his mother would be complete leap in logic considering how little information he has to go off of.
Also Ace didn't that much about the inner workings of the DGP, the only things he knew very well was how to play the game, the rules, and what happens to players when they lose (memory/desire loss & unable to return if they die, he did not know players turned into Jamato). He's been shown to not know/be caught off guard by things such as not knowing that the Gamemaster was a Rider, he had a hunch about the DGP having an audience but didn't know for sure, he didn't know how the DGP selected players, and he didn't know how the DGP granted wishes.
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07-09-2023, 03:59 PM | #19 |
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Funny, that we acknowledge Neon's for opposite reasons, you do it because of the difference of her reason of fighting to Keiwa's, while I do it because I see that she often performs similar actions as Keiwa - when Keiwa helps someone, most of the time she'd do the same as well.
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