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06-15-2023, 12:49 AM | #21 |
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I think peace and happiness are slightly different. You could say Neon was peaceful when she lost her Kirakira and started obeying Irumi, but she wasn't happy, as she later told Kyuun to let her remember everything if it happened again. Like, what does peace mean for someone like Beroba, who can only be happy if others are suffering? Peace opposes sadism, yet sadism is necessary for happiness, as part of human nature. Ace is simply trying to keep the world safe from Jyamatos so people can find their own happiness and he's only using his own Kirakira for power. This would satisfy Michinaga, but it's probably not enough for Keiwa, who demands justice for the dead, something that would require a lot more Kirakira.
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There's a rumor that Neon is going to get a new Core ID, which makes me wonder if Na-Go's Core ID is permadead, like the Holy Wing Vistamp. I guess Hakubi won't be coming back anytime soon, but good to see that Sara is continuing to give support for Neon's happiness, now that disappearing is no longer an option. She still has an important role as the heart and being a Rider or not doesn't change that.
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That's true, peace is such an abstract concept, like a common good, compared to individual happiness determined by people's desires. Kanato's desire for human extinction can also be called world peace, in a twisted way. It depends whether a person seeks peace by any means necessary, or only as a means to obtaining happiness. I think that's why Keiwa decided to change his desire, as world peace isn't something you wish for, but something each person can contribute to through acts of kindness. But only DGP can bring back dead.
Y̶e̶a̶h̶ ̶h̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶"̶K̶a̶b̶u̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶n̶a̶b̶e̶"̶.̶ ̶G̶u̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶b̶o̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶i̶p̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶l̶l̶e̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶K̶a̶b̶u̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶r̶i̶v̶a̶t̶i̶v̶e̶s̶ ̶-̶ ̶A̶c̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶K̶a̶m̶e̶n̶ ̶R̶i̶d̶e̶r̶'̶s̶ ̶K̶a̶b̶u̶t̶o̶,̶ ̶D̶a̶i̶c̶h̶i̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶N̶a̶r̶u̶t̶o̶'̶s̶ ̶K̶a̶b̶u̶t̶o̶.̶ Quote:
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In this case, everything is clear enough for me. During the show itself, Zolda was considered tertiary, but after, due to the charisma of the character and the willingness of the actor to return, Ouja took his place. By the way, the same thing happens with Genm, only much faster and more brazenly. As for the Asakura monster trio, given that even Ryuki and Knight didn't get any extra pets, it's not a coolness of the character, but an attempt to make him an even more dangerous and terrifying villain.
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Otherwise, seems that from how you're talking about the "cries" here, you're an actual example of those thinking that, versatility aside, characters are only okay to display a breakdown, vulnerability, etc. if they have "proven" themselves to be a "bonafide badass" (read: those being grumpy, antisocial, aggressive, and other cold or outright toxic masculine traits depicted as tough) of which it'd be praised as humanizing instead for them. Gotta stop encouraging emotional suppression/avoidance of vulnerability and telling people not to cry, be vulnerable (except for those normally acting like stereotypical men, and those characters I refer are often given occassional vulnerable moments, just the double standard of only those being able to without being shamed), and project a rather inauthentic image, lest those get harassed and shamed. It's not what being emotionally healthy actually is and it can't be suppressed forever, also strong doesn't only come in one mold, there's no one way to be strong. Quote:
The classification of tertiary doesn't really hold much ground beyond trying to decide which character has marginally more importance to the plot. Often times, such as this case, it's difficult to say. Na-Go may suffer more, but Michinaga's actions tend to directly alter the plot's trajectory.
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The most complete non-wiki encyclopedias for Kamen Rider series (currently only found Ryuki and OOO's). Last edited by DreadBringer; 06-15-2023 at 05:28 AM.. |
06-15-2023, 02:57 AM | #22 |
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And characterization has no relation to their story role, even though it's true Na-Go is the tertiary. The franchise's formula may have certain characters often occupy that role, but they (or anyone else) can perform different things for that character role too if they want. Michinaga has a characterization similar to many previous secondaries of being brutish thug , same logic applies to Neon here for "suffers the most" (guess for OOO, the primary seems clearly the one suffering the most, and even then, perhaps there are lots of other tertiary that doesn't suffer the most, at least in comparison to main characters like Mihara, Taiga, Woz, Yua, Sakura).
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Otherwise, seems that from how you're talking about the "cries" here, you're an actual example of those thinking that, versatility aside, characters are only okay to display a breakdown, vulnerability, etc. if they have "proven" themselves to be a "bonafide badass" (read: those being grumpy, antisocial, aggressive, and other cold or outright toxic masculine traits depicted as tough) of which it'd be praised as humanizing instead for them. Gotta stop encouraging emotional suppression/avoidance of vulnerability and telling people not to cry, be vulnerable (except for those normally acting like stereotypical men, and those characters I refer are often given occassional vulnerable moments, just the double standard of only those being able to without being shamed), and project a rather inauthentic image, lest those get harassed and shamed. It's not what being emotionally healthy actually is and it can't be suppressed forever, also strong doesn't only come in one mold, there's no one way to be strong.
And even more so, I'm not a fan of cool characters. In my rider rankings, Takeru is higher than Tendo. And the same Gills I like not because he is cool and brutal, but because I feel sorry for the boy who receives a triple share of misfortunes in the show. Therefore, it seems to me that we need to stop being offended by the statement of fact. A person who fights a lot is a fighter; a person who screams a lot is a screamer; a person who cries a lot is a crybaby. And "crybaby" is not an insult. A pitiful crybaby is an insult. I hope I made my position clear. Plus, everything you wrote about mental health doesn't apply to Neon? She created a bright positive image on the Internet, hiding her tears behind a smile. And I do not blame her for crying (I just state that she cries a lot), but in her case, tears do not help. Otherwise, she would have already come close to solving her problems, but this is not the case. Neon is still unhappy. Quote:
It's also a common view that villains tend to directly alter the plot's trajectory more, in fact it can be seen as inherent (actually not always) that they're the ones who make the plot while the heroes only react. By this there can be people having takes such as "Joker is the real protagonist (or even 'the hero') of The Dark Knight" but doesn't mean they're stating the truth/fact - it's just one of those biased interpretations revolving around their favorite characters only.
Last edited by Mesnick; 06-15-2023 at 04:26 AM.. |
06-15-2023, 09:30 AM | #23 |
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Dunno if this'd sound spiteful to you regarding Michinaga talk, or just pointing out about the DGP not being the only problem (though obviously it's a big one), perhaps Michinaga can discover that even by having the Rider powers nonexistent, the humans' desire and free will means that as long as people are free to choose, someone will choose to do evil, and there will always be someone else who still suffer from their freely taken evil actions, likely will cook up another extremist plan to "end conflict".
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I'd wanna ask why do you praise Sara's support to Neon here, but consider Keiwa and Neon helping her as merely doing it for personal connection? O̶t̶h̶e̶r̶w̶i̶s̶e̶.̶.̶.̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶N̶e̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶S̶a̶r̶a̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶i̶r̶l̶-̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶v̶e̶r̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶R̶i̶n̶t̶a̶r̶o̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶i̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶e̶?̶
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06-15-2023, 09:54 AM | #24 |
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I'd rather Michinaga doesn't go full genocidal villain like Kaito, as that would pretty much ruin the character for me. Michinaga already shows awareness of the fact that evil is inherent in human nature, which is a trait he acknowledges in himself as well. But his interaction with Tycoon in Episode 37 suggests that his philosophy is about protecting people's happiness from those who would deny them that, so destroying free will and denying everybody would be a contradiction. At this point in the show, I want to see Michinaga develop constructively, not get worse.
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06-15-2023, 10:01 AM | #25 |
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Michinaga and Beroba created that scheme together, so they share the blame. While it's true that Michinaga is bad enough that he deems some people expendable to prove a point, he's not so terrible that he would commit genocide.
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06-15-2023, 01:49 PM | #26 |
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Like deeming anyone expendable for any reason is bad, no matter what the scale. The DGP is wrong for what they've done, but Michinaga really wasn't much better. |
06-16-2023, 03:45 PM | #27 |
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I consider Demons tertiary, just not agreeing with Toei. Let this be a personal headcanon. As for Michinaga, your statement is very debatable, because he is quite similar to Snipe. And Beroba doesn't call him Micchy for nothing. Plus, in the movie, he fought Vice, emphasizing his position as more important than secondary.
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So, I'm sure that we already had this conversation, but still you are fighting in the wrong direction again. When I write that someone cries a lot, I am not judging or belittling, but simply stating a fact. If I want to give this a condemning color, I use a colorful epithet to emphasize it.
And even more so, I'm not a fan of cool characters. In my rider rankings, Takeru is higher than Tendo. And the same Gills I like not because he is cool and brutal, but because I feel sorry for the boy who receives a triple share of misfortunes in the show. Quote:
Therefore, it seems to me that we need to stop being offended by the statement of fact. A person who fights a lot is a fighter; a person who screams a lot is a screamer; a person who cries a lot is a crybaby. And "crybaby" is not an insult. A pitiful crybaby is an insult. I hope I made my position clear.
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I'd rather Michinaga doesn't go full genocidal villain like Kaito, as that would pretty much ruin the character for me. Michinaga already shows awareness of the fact that evil is inherent in human nature, which is a trait he acknowledges in himself as well. But his interaction with Tycoon in Episode 37 suggests that his philosophy is about protecting people's happiness from those who would deny them that, so destroying free will and denying everybody would be a contradiction. At this point in the show, I want to see Michinaga develop constructively, not get worse.
Though regarding said interaction, maybe it depends on translation subs, but from what I catch I do think that the ep. 37 one have his argument being about just living and not being at stakes - which is similar to what you said about how Neon was peaceful when she started obeying Irumi, but she wasn't happy. But I thought he hates happiness in their interaction for ep. 31, blaming it as the root of all evil - and he has no problem bringing misery via the JGP, as long as it opposes the DGP, and we know that merely living doesn't mean fulfilling, but I know some people (those like him or some real life audience who makes defenses for those "not killing") do equate living or surviving as "not being miserable" (which I thought was what he said there). Quote:
Genocide is for when a specific group of people are being targeted to kill, and Michinaga certainly didn't do that. But the guy committed mass homicide, and that's still really bad. Like even taking into account that some civilians get brought back to life after the final round, it's been pointed out there are STILL people who don't get brought back in order to be used as fuel for the wishes, like Keiwa's parents.
Like deeming anyone expendable for any reason is bad, no matter what the scale. The DGP is wrong for what they've done, but Michinaga really wasn't much better.
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06-16-2023, 09:27 PM | #28 |
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Geats Boost MK. XI is a phenomenal suit with a grand debut and a fantastic episode.
Now we move to the present (since I caught up), and now we got fleas- I mean, Jamato in fun-size. I've also noticed in the Opening, the writing on the Desire Grand Prix cards are different, now reading "who gets a happy end?" "who doesn't get a happy end?" (I probably wrote them wrong, but that was the gist) Kekera and Beroba are here looking for some fun, while the Game Producers are now out to snag their Navigator back. Also, shout out to Niram for standing up to Suell. Next Episode: "My sister is dead. Now check out my new form." "Hiro Kagami?"
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06-17-2023, 03:12 AM | #29 |
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Niram is very funny and ridiculous in his hypocrisy. He was not at all embarrassed to deceive the riders, as if they were fighting to save the world, but as soon as he found out that he, too, had not been told the whole truth, he became indignant and offended.
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06-17-2023, 03:25 AM | #30 |
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Not Sh Ranger, but yeah ironically despite the point of the reset for some civilians, it's a common defense some people use for him to paint him as blameless that the civilians will get reset thus he didn't kill anyone (and somehow they can forget he murdered the Riders here to claim he never killed Riders or anyone). This also ignores how not all Rider fightings are DGP (this is the JGP, the ones who get reset after this are Jamatos, and Beroba explicitly stated that they will be used as sacrifices to fuel the wish for the JGP?s winner). And their targets being deserving one (including society or entire world) do often can make people forget their atrocities, thinking that they're small prices for the better outcome - the thing is I don't know why some people think these guys' plans will always work out perfectly if let be, and their plans are seen as the only one that can work for betterment, thus those opposing them (not strictly about Geats but various other media) are considred not getting the big picture to hinder that.
And I also want to mention the numerous betrayals from Michinaga. He betrayed Merry, he betrayed Beroba, he betrayed his Jamato friend and, in a way, he betrayed Nadge. Of course, one can argue that all these characters are villains, but personally they did nothing wrong to him. However, the show didn't give him the opportunity to betray the Geats during their collaboration, which means Michinaga is likely to get away with it. |
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