Oh right, I forgot to respond to that. What the heck does that even mean?! That's a really unsatisfactory, vaguely insulting reason to give as to why people don't watch Toku.

Just because it's foreign doesn't mean it's alien. These are shows for little kids. I refuse to believe they're so deeply steeped in Japanese culture that they must be "deciphered".

It's just obscure, you know? There doesn't have to be some deep reason behind that. Not to mention Sci-Fi/Fantasy stuff in general has historically had problems with being considered "inane" or "geeky", namely by snooty academic types but still, it can be a mainstream sentiment sometimes.

I can't really think of anything that could advance Shinji's character, even outside of the context of the main conflict of the show, like what happened with the Faiz bit in Kamen Rider Taisen.

I agree, it's really stupid. I'd go as far as to say that Kamen Rider, Ultraman, and Super Sentai are often significantly better than any DC/CW show, especially from an action and innovative storytelling perspective.

What I don't agree with is the comparable budget between the DC/CW and toku shows. The DC shows cost $1-2 million per episode, whereas the budget of your average toku episode would be insanely lucky to max out at $500k. And I do think the low budget is the most alienating factor for Western/US audiences. (Although, the commercial failure of Pacific Rim in the US makes me think that there's not a huge audience for Toei-style Henshin Hero stuff, even if the budget is substantial. We'll have to see how the new Power Rangers movie does at the box office before we're able to draw a firm conclusion.)

I don't feel that way about mainstream media at all. I just have a different set of expectations for mainstream stuff than I do from niche stuff.

Look at the public's perception of old Godzilla movies. Look at people's perception of Power Rangers. I wouldn't exactly say they're 100% positive. Many mainstreamers, if they watch this stuff at all, do so ironically -- like, MST3K style. They watch to make fun of the men in suits, or to laugh at the bad dubs, or to giggle at the swarms of histrionic Japanese people feeling from giant monsters. And hey, that's a fair way to derive enjoyment from these things. But it's not a mindset that screams, "I think of this as a legitimate, high-quality artistic accomplishment."

I think the low budget and toy-focus establishes certain expectations in the minds of mainstream viewers -- namely, that the show will be cheap, juvenile, and not worthy of sincere appreciation. If that's a viewer's first impression, it's gonna be hard to change.

Well, if you're posting on here, you're obviously more open to Japanese culture than a lot of Westerners. I don't think our attitude toward these cultural differences is indicative of mainstream America's. I think we're probably more open-minded, more willing to challenge ourselves, than the average mainstream viewer.

When I hear mainstream American audiences talk about anime and Japanese culture, it's usually with a hint of racist disdain. They say shit like, "oh, Japanese people are so fucking weird, look at their tentacle rape porn and fixation on cartoon pedophilia," as if that's all Japanese media has to offer. That's a gross mindset, but it's hard for me to look at all the racial grossness happening in America today and not find it reflected in the mainstream's attitude toward Japanese cultural exports.

Tone is also, I think, a very real concern. There's a lot of unusual tonal juxtaposition in Japanese media that doesn't really happen in American media. In Kamen Rider specifically, we're used to seeing OTT slapstick comedy in one scene, brutal violence in the next, and heartfelt melodrama in the scene after that. That tonal mishmash happens in some American media, but not to the extremes it does in its Japanese counterparts. That whiplash could probably be alienating to mainstream American viewers who are more accustomed to a consistent tone.

I totally agree, and with Shout's Super Sentai and Cruchyroll's Ultraman releases, we're seeing the niche audience expand every day. I can only imagine that expansion will continue with Amazons.

And you know what? I'd love to see Kamen Rider, Sentai, Ultraman, Garo, et al break out into the mainstream. I just don't think it's realistic to expect it to.

How is that insulting? Do you think I'm underestimating the American mainstream's appreciation of foreign language material? If so, please point out all of the foreign language films on 2016's list of top 100 highest grossing movies in the US. Here, let me do the work for you. There's one, No Manches Frida, and it clocks in at #93 on the list.

Just because you and I are interested in other cultures' entertainment doesn't mean that the majority of people are. If they were, we'd see a lot more foreign language films do well at the box office. We'd see all sorts of foreign language TV shows on broadcast TV. But... we don't. And that's okay! I have assigned no value charge to that fact.

Look, I'm not saying that mainstream Americans aren't capable of understanding this stuff. I'm saying that they're not interested in challenging themselves to do so. The material may not be alien, but it's certainly alienating. And I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing -- I'm just making an observation.

But... why is it obscure? Just 'cause? That's a really lazy logic. There's a reason for everything, and I hardly think that saying "Americans are historically disinterested in challenging themselves to experience other cultures" is a particularly profound or earth-shattering proposition.

Also... if you think that's the only reason I put forth, you didn't really read my whole argument which credits its niche status primarily to the shows' low budget.

Sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you or something but that particular bit rubbed me the wrong way. I read all the other parts and believe it or not I DO more-or-less agree with you.

But I hate the notion that these goofy shows we're so into are something you "challenge" yourself to understand. I get your message here but the wording comes off extraordinarily pretentious to me.

And I didn't mean "just 'cause" with what I said either. I was actually getting at what you're saying that there's an established, broad disinterest in foreign stuff. By "no deep reason" I meant "a lot of reasons". Sorry if that didn't come across clearly enough.

Whoa, an apology on the internet!? I... I've never heard of such a thing. :lol ;)

Sorry that I rubbed you the wrong way. Hopefully my clarification that I don't think any of this is good or bad eases the sting. :thumb:

I hear you. But pretentious or not, foreignness is a huge barrier of entry for a stunningly large percent of Americans. The number of times I've heard, "I don't want movies with subtitles," is astonishingly large, even among educated people. And then on top of that, there are a ton of cultural nuances that need to be understood to fully appreciate even these goofy ass kids shows (there are honorifics, gender dynamics, foods, social hierarchies, and a ton of other things that do need to be explained to people unfamiliar with anime and other Japanese media).

And getting over (or coming to appreciate) the goofiness itself is a huge challenge. I'm half Japanese, I have a ton of familiarity with anime and other Japanese cultural exports, and I was a massive massive massive Godzilla and Power Rangers fan as a kid -- and even so, getting used to tokusatsu's bizarre tone took some effort for me (not a huge amount, but it wasn't completely effortless). It's probably possible to enjoy these things without this knowledge, but it can be confusing, which is a very real deterrent. Even a whisper of confusion keeps Americans from engaging with this stuff, especially in a world where countless, high quality American shows -- shows that don't require any effort to understand -- are competing for the mainstream audience's attention.

Gotcha. And I agree. There are a lot of factors, only a few of which I've addressed.

I'm gonna try not to press the issue any more than this because it'll get outside of the scope of this forum quickly but I guess my opinion is just influenced by my perspective (go figure). I'm just some random American idiot who liked Power Rangers as a little kid and I never felt like I had to "get used" to the tone or anything like that. I saw some shows that looked interesting and I watched them, that's all.

Being able to enjoy it without a nuanced understanding of the culture it came from isn't a "probably" in my mind. People don't even have a nuanced understanding of their own culture a lot of the time but that doesn't stop them. It's just like, you don't need to know detailed writing concepts by name to say "I thought x was well written", for example. Any understanding of a story is a valid one.

I just get really sketched-out whenever I hear people talk about other countries like they've got so little in common because I feel that contributes to creating the very atmosphere you and I are bummed exist. If you want to get a pal to watch some pretentious French drama are you going to tell them "you just need to take a brief history course before you can watch it" or "dude it's just like any other movie, relax"?

Obviously there's differences but Powerman293 had a point talking about Blade. Being human is a pretty universal thing, isn't it? I'm getting way too philosophical for my own good now so I'll stop here but hopefully you get what I'm saying.

Yeah, the first impression stuff is important. Rider at least has an episode of dramatic build up in many series' first episodes to get an initial dramatic significance into the viewers' heads before the fights. Maybe Faiz would be the best for something like that given Kiba gets hit by a truck in Episode 1 and loses both his parents.


It sucks that most of mainstream America isn't culturally as open as we are. I find that really ironic considering there are so many different types of people living and working in the states, that you'd think a universal cohesion on one attitude would be impossible given the diversity. I don't know how you get people to be more open to other cultures though.

I was listening to a podcast, where someone who works for IGN (Jared Petty, if you guys want to look him up) lived in Japan and he was explaining the tonal disparity thing. He has the way Japan balances things out, is by having the opposite extremes of light heartedness and darkness. And example he provided was a sign with cute cartoony drawing of a character jumping in front of a train, advising people to not commit suicide. In America, the sign probably just say "Please do not get on the tracks". It's not light hearted, but it's not dark either. So I finally have an understanding for that view.


As long as it gets as mainstream as anime is and keeps growing from there, I think it will. Attitudes will change.


I have an idea of having some of the people living on my college dorm room floor watch the first few episodes of a rider show with me if I have the opprotunity to put something on. It'll be an interesting little experiment. Granted, it might be skewed given that I go to school in a more culturally diverse and accepting city than most.

Not to mention within all those high quality American shows, there's superheros that are draw in the average viewer easier based on previous exposure to their namesake. Flash, Batman, e.t.c.

Well, I can tell you that, among people who don't have to read to make a living - a dismaying number can't read very well - even among the so called "educated". My boss, a college graduate who runs a very successful business, can barely write a coherent sentence (finding documents he's written in our tablet can be a real challenge!). When I worked in advertising, one of the many hats I wore was "proofreader". I took my higher-ups official communications and rewrote them so they didn't read as though penned a seventh grader with no idea how punctuation works. These are not stupid people, obviously - they just never put a lot of stock into reading.

So, for a good number of people, reading is a "chore". Some can't read fast enough to follow the story, others are weirded out about it in the same manner that some are with understanding the mechanics of comics. It's just too much work when simply trying to be entertained - and you're trying to get them to watch a kid's show.

Yeaaahhhh.

Well, I have a co-worker who I'm trying to get to watch either Blade, Ryuki or Amazons. He likes action and 'splosions, sci-fi and comic cons and spent some time stationed in Okinawa in the 90's. He should go crazy for it, we see.

I don't think you, or anyone who posts on this site, is an "average American idiot." Our arguments are too well-reasoned, we can write above a 5th grade reading level, and we're open to learning about other cultures. That blend of intelligence and open-mindedness is unusual, in general, but it's fairly common in Western toku fandom. I think that combination of personality traits draws us to these shows, and it allows (most of) us to better appreciate non-culturally-traditional stories, moreso than the average, mainstream American audience member.

That said, I think there are three main points being argued here, and I don't think our opinions are all that different.

1) Foreignness as a barrier of entry.
2) Knowledge as requirement for enjoyment.
3) Cultural commonality.

Point one: we thought these shows looked cool, so we watched them. The foreignness didn't bother us. I think it is a mistake to assume that the majority of mainstream American viewers share this disposition. If they did, more excellent foreign language shows and movies would be mainstream. The foreignness, whether it's language-based or cultural, keeps most people from engaging with these shows in the first place.

Point two: I concede that you're right on this one, so long as one is able to overcome the initial barrier of foreignness. Though, I'd argue that enjoyment increases as cultural understanding increases.

Point three: Japanese culture is not so different from American culture that members of one can't understand the other. In fact, there's a huge degree of overlap. But I find that the more two cultures have in common, the more important the subtle differences between them become. Whether we like it or not, humans are "in-group"/"out-group" animals, and one group will find a way to differentiate themselves from another group, even if their differences are minuscule. It's a widely recognized phenomenon that two people with 99% similar viewpoints will argue just as fiercely over their 1% difference as two people with 100% differing viewpoints. I think that phenomenon applies to cultures just as well as it does to individuals. Regardless of our similarities, the average American will find cultural differences in Japanese media that alienate or turn them off. Should it be this way? Can it be changed? I don't know. Those are philosophical questions I don’t think anyone has the answer to. What I do know is we're lucky to possess character traits that enable us to see past our own culture's biases.

But yeah, anyway, that's just my very long way of saying Kamen Rider rules and anyone who doesn't agree is dumb. :lol ;) (jkjkjk)

To be honest as a long time anime viewer I can understand how people can find subtitles off-putting I've had incidents of the scroll being too quick where you don't have enough time to even read the dialogue,the font either being too small or a bad color where you can't see them or being too large and obscuring the image double bad points if the subs are an eyebleedingly garish color*looking at you TV Nihon* and the written subtitles being laughably bad broken English.

Plus the fear/annoyance that you'll miss a scene while reading the subtitles.