Something something something "Tachibana-san, why have you betrayed us" something something something.

you keep saying its just for shock value yet it had relevance to the plot.

the overlord didn't want humans to become something he couldn't control. he didn't want them to move forward, but once it starts, you can't stop it, so he has them killed. how is that just for shock value? and the only time actual "innocent bystanders" get killed is when one of the unknowns gets their antanae cut off, and they just start killing random people. they technically werent even supposed to be killing normal humans. like, the most messed up death to me was Hase, because we see him break down and try to break from his inves form, and in the end he gets offed like an animal. Yuya was already gone, and Sid could have died any other way besides crushed.

and name one scene where Shoichi just stands around while an unknown attacks. I mean just because he isn't on the constant hunt for them doesn't mean he can't live his life outside of fighting unknown. hell, he's willing to sacrifice himself for the final battle. I'm sorry that him being an amnesiac and trying to figure out his past is a bad thing I guess?

and Gills is a homage to Amazon, so of course he has to scream, because going "GIGIGIIIIIII!" would be too silly in the tone of Agito.

Either some crazy stuff happens in the next couple episodes (I'm on 41) or I completely missed this.

This guy gets it.

:/ I really don't see how it was badly paced.
I must be missing something.

The deaths had relevance to the plot.

The manner of deaths did not. The amount of deaths, and the flippant nature towards them, did not.

Because at least one person dies per episode, usually in a graphically disturbing manner like being stuffed into a tree or something.

At no point that I can recall does Agito ever actually save anyone. He never prevents any killings.

Are you trying to imply all the victims, the woud-be Agito, weren't innocent? Because they did not choose to be Agito or know they were going to be. To them, they were normal people, save that one telekentic woman who was a manipulator. (yet ironically the only person Agito showed remourse over)

And remember how Kouta reacted to it?

You know what Agito never did?

Yuuya was already gone, but it was still tragic that neither he nor Kouta knew what they were doing, and Sid's death was brutal because he deserved it. He wasn't some harmless one-ep bystander, he was an evil, sick man and his brutal death was every bit deserved.

Every single episode, because it takes at least one death to get him to get off his ass and become Agito.

Plus, seriously? He's turning into an armoured bug-God and figthing monsters, and he's not the least bit curious as to why? He literally does not mention it for like ten episodes. For the longest time I assumed it was subconcious and he wasn't aware he could transform, but he was. It was stupid.

Kinda actually. I mean, seriously? there's hardly any connection between normal life and Agito life. When and Unknown shows up Shouichi just lives and, without saying two words, (besides "henshin") goes Agito, kills it, then goes back to normal life without even acknowledging it. It's like two different shows. Seriously you're trying to tell me that's a normal human reaction to just go on without so much as a moment's thought?

And nowhere else.

Then maybe they shouldn't have homaged Amazon if it was going to make him annoying and insufferable.

Nothing happens for like ten episodes. And even after that, there'll be like episodes at a time of nothing of substance taking place. And no, monster of the week battles don't count. I mean like changes, forwarding of stories, explanations.

Example: G3's entire subplot revolves around trying to find out who Agito is. It is not until the late 40's that he finally finds out. If he even does, I may be misremembering.

Without spoiling things.... it's a really lackluster explanation.

If you don't care about spoilers: It's God. God did it. Everything that happened? it was just God. Good ol' all-powerful, don't-need-to-explain-him-'cuz-he's-God-ly God. Agito are humans evolved (THAT's a whole 'nother can of beans. You can't do divine creator and evolution stories at the same time, they literally are opposites) past god's control, so he sends the Unknown who are like angels to kill humans. That's it. That's the entire show and all it's facets.

It's more based along evolution than religion, though there are some religious aspects to it.

Which are literally incompatible. I shouldn't have to explain why religion and evolution can't co-exist in fiction. The mere idea of evolution is itself the antithesis to the idea of creation.

But that's, like, not even stuff we can talk about here. Which I'm more than okay with, because it's so dumb it frustrates me.

Though that is another point in Gaim's favour. We never found out where Helheim actually came from, nor did it consider itself divine. It's power, while Godly to us, was just natural to the forest and wherever it came from.

I'm sorry Shouichi wasn't given the power to know when unkown were about to attack. I guess I was too busy watching him break down in fear because a monster from his past returned and it took Mana reminding him what he was fighting for to bring him out of it. and that time he saved a pregnant woman from being killed, y'know, preventing TWO deaths, and everytime he could actually get to the monster attack in time, cuz y'know, he doesn't have the ability to teleport. I mean, Godai obviously must also be an asshole because so many people died before he could kill a monster, the lazy piece of shit. just giving people thumbs up when he should be teleporting and solving problems before they even happen. like, this is what would happen if the constant threat of monsters killing random people would happen. Shouichi literally is rushing his ass off to try and hopefully save the current person from dying or at least save other people from being killed too.


I never implied that the would-be Agito's weren't innocent. I was referring to the fact of normal humans being attacked that weren't technically plot relevant. the fact is that the ones with the seed of Agito were targets, and the show revealed why they were being targeted.

and there's no way you could have Shouichi really acknowledge it without having it come off as him patting himself on the back about it and being conceited. I mean, what am i saying, he only sacrificed himself once, I mean, besides him taking a shot that was meant for Mana, and Kino.

and I dunno, Gills' shouting was fine. he was supposed to be a savage character, and his yelling showed plenty of savagery. like, he and Amazon yelled almost exactly the same.

yes. yes it can. they explain that a deity gave humanity the power to evolve.

it's not going into the depths of just christianity, or any religion that would argue that as well, not all of religion is in that sense. in Agito's case, religion and evolution actually do go together.

http://www.tokunation.com/showthread...ighlight=Agito

Depending on the lens you view it through, but as you said it gets into territory that we can't go in to on this site.

I dunno, I think it should be fine so long as we keep it to the lore which the show gives us. especially considering the deities are very plot important to the show.
as long as we don't go into any actual religious territory, it should be fine.
stick to the mythology that the show gives us.

No, but he was given the power to say "holy shit, I just turned into a demiGod and killed a murdering monster speaking in tounges. What could this all mean?"

And you know what? He should've been given the power to know when they were about to attack, given that he still ahd the miraculous power to know when they had. That's some selective sixth sense.

Oh, I remember that. I remember how totally out-of-place it felt considering there was never any indication prior that implied he was ever fighting for anything. Again, I initially thought he was subconciously transforming and that they're be a big dramatic moment where he found out, but nope, he just for some reason never mentioned it.

Again, it's a basic human response to at least go "WTF" when that happens. It would've been great if he'd had some sort of mini crisis, but fearing he'd bring undue harm towards his friends, he secretly begins investigating his past and the people being targetted like the G3 people were trying to do. this would've been a cool way to show a parallel between those who aren't Agito trying to understand him when he doesn't even know it hismelf, and them both coming together to find the same answers.

But nope, just week after week of tomatoes and lame fights.

That's two out of, what, fifty?

Again, he literally has a sixth sense, it just never senses Unknown before they've killed anyone.

You're arguing like it's some unreasonable expectation for him to have a supernatural ability to know when Unknown appear, but he does. It's just uselessly delayed purely so that the show can have civilian deaths before the monster's killed. Bottom line, he's an ineffectual hero. He's not even a hero.

I actually really don't like Kuuga either, but I've seen far less of it than Agito.

Again, he has ESP. It's just conveniently delayed. And it's not like there's not just gonna be another Unknown to kill more people next week.

But honestly? His inability to actually save people isn't really something I can blame on the character. The writers are to blame. But character-wise I can blame his total and iredeemable apathy. He never once shows remourse or regret for the innocents lost, or even acknowledge or show contempt for the afomentioned useless ESP. The show desperately needed a scene of him contemplating why he has this power if he can never save anyone in time. That would've been character developement.

So did the unknown have to mutilate them when they killed them? No, that was done to be "dark and gritty." But it was stupid.

How?

Because, like, a shitload of Kamen Riders have acknowledged their powers and didn't come across as conceited. And you know what? Being conceited and grwoign out of it would make him more fo a charatcer than he was. Again, compared to Gaim, Kouta was using his power for mundane things at first and then realised, pardon the cliche, that great power comes with great responsibility.

And they were both annoying. Screaming constantly is annoying, it's what children do to annoy their parents.

Well then here's a simple example from the show itself:

The "Overlord" created humans... but they then evolved past his control. How? He created them, he created everything. How did they evolve and he not notice it? Also, he did create humans as they are, or the ancestral primates that would one day evolve into humans?

And that's all I can safely say, but as you can see they're not compatible veiwpoints.

Ashihara had a tough time in the show, I can forgive him for being angry considering everyone he was close with betrayed him, and then anyone he became close with after that died. (wouldn't be surprised if the puppy bit the dust post-credit as well...)


"Overlord(s)", that's why. And you're talking about a show in a universe with a real god, monster people, and previously in Kuuga ancient civilizations that made super technology from magic stones from space. Anachronism is often a problem in many toku programs anyway.

two overlords fought, one was defeated, in that one's dying breath, he gave humanity (the beings the victor created) the potential power to evolve in the future as a final "fuck you' to the other guy.

that's what happened.

It wasnt his choice to give them the power of evolution. There were two Overlords in the show. The overlord of Darkness and the Overlord of Light. They created Humanity together but soon grew distant and waged war against each other. The Overlord of Darkness won and with his last power the Overlord of Light gave humanity the power to evolve past humanity without the Overlord of Darkness knowing of it.

no. the puppy lives. it is free from the suffering. I don't care how funny it is to poke fun at Ryo's never ending sadness, the puppy is off limits. >:U

ACTUALLY, he did tell the overlord of darkness that humanity would eventually would become not his.

I'll admit, it's been like two or maybe three years since I watched Agito, and I never made it to the very end.

So... it's not evolution. Evolution is genetic mutation being passed down through generations depending on wether or not said mutation gives the species in question an adavantage in survival.

Evolution happens over millions of years, and has no predictable path. Changing a species is not evolution, it's splicing or augmentation.

Does Kuuga get good?

in this case, no. it is using the dictionary's secondary description for the word. which states: "the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form." in Agito's case, this is done through psychic powers and transformations. being able to even become Agito gives you access to physical and mental powers, IE becoming more complex.

Shouichi's technically the Char of Agito seeds though. his only power is sensing an unknown attack.

Except it's not that at all. There's nothing gradual about it. They literally just spontainiously gain abilites that manifest over the course of, what, months?

It's not evolution by any deffinition of the word, it's just simple alteration. Evolution, put most basically, is one iteration of a concept unsurped by a superior version. But these people did not give way to superior versions, they were transformed into superior versions.

>not gradual
>over the course of months
one is not mutually exclusive to another.
again, it's not using the scientific term of evolution. it is the conceptual term. https://www.google.com/search?q=evol...sm=93&ie=UTF-8

someone linked to the lore of Agito's tapestry, definitely go look at that to see what it is doing with humanity become Agito.

It's definitely evolution, they are not using the definition as per biological evolution. The dead Overlord gave mankind the magical ability to gradually become Agito, which is precursored by the development of supernatural powers. And the main character Agito himself develops other forms as he is met with greater resistance in the show. It isn't more spontaneous that how any other riders develop their abilities either through convenient plot henshin device, or indeterminate amounts of training. This is an adolescent action program.

Evolution happens over the course of millions of years.

A few months is like the blink of an eye in someone's lifetime.

So it's genetic evolution, but it's not geneic evolution.

I mean, I get it now, but man they certainly made it as confusing as possible. Though again, never finished the show completely.

I never criticised the spontaneity, just the verbiage. The idea of people gaining these powers doesn't bug me at all, I was just sorely confused as to where they supposedly came from.

you're the one constantly saying it doesn't follow the darwinian concept of evolution WHEN EVERYONE HAS BEEN SAYING IT DOESN'T FOLLOW THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!
SEVERAL TIMES!

Well it's a valid reason. Although you gotta give Asahira a break, he has a much more tragic history and more normal emotional response to his condition and his battles compared to what you didn't like about Shouichi.

yeah dude, Ashihara must have the patience of a saint with how much suffering he goes through.

he's nearly killed constantly, his powers cause cellular degeneration, his love life sucks. I love that Gills is both the cause and release of his anger that builds up.

Actually they didn't. At least not very well. Also calm down, I told you I get it now. You're hysterically screaming like I didn't just admit that I was confused.

Which is why I didn't bring him up as much. Gills and G3 were way better characters. Plus, as side characters, I don't hold them to the same standard as the guy who's name is in the title.

I typed in all caps because I told you several times what version of evolution it is following, just not direct because i figured you'd know what it would mean.

Actually I think you typed in all caps because that was the only part of my arguement that you could successfully discredit since it was based on a true misunderstanding.

Also, how would I know what that means? It's been two years, and I've not exactly had to recall my memories of theshow before now. How am I supposed to know "genetic evolution" does not mean "genetic evolution?"

I did not mean the stuff you watched in two years, i meant the conversations that were just like
"this isn't Darwinian evolution"
"actually it's this concept of evolution"
"but this isn't Darwinian evolution"

I just searched "Darwinian" in this thread, and the oldest result was from the caps-filled post you threw at me just five posts ago.

So, no, you did not explain it that way at all. Again, you're arguing semantics and pointlessly continuing a debate because my real criticisms about the show are still indefensible.

Does anyone what the whole deal was with the Man and The Woman from Hibiki?

I dont think there was ever an actual explanation. And if it was then it got lost thanks to them changing the whole production staff.

I was the first to use darwinian because you were using "genetic" to describe one form and "genetic" to describe another. I got mad because I kept saying the same thing to you, and when someone said the same thing that I was saying, so I got pissed. i am sorry for that but I was saying the same thing as Joebe. down to the "they're not using evolution in that sense"

and I'm not continuing the argument about the show because A) I'm not good at debates as other people, and B) I really don't see the point because you clearly hate the show, and I don't see any point in continuing an argument that will get nowhere. PS. it wasn't caps filled, the site prevents caps filled posts.


let's change the subject
I am slowly getting excited for ghost. I like his Musashi form. I hope it will be good and keep those eye things in a more concise plot and characterisation than the shift cars were done.

The Man and The Woman in the old western clothing in the final episode created and sustains the Man and the Woman in the Japanese clothing seen in the later half of the series. Subsequently, the Man and the Woman in the Japanese clothing creates and sustains the various Douji and Hime so they can breed the various makamous.

Why? Dunno, not explained.

This. We'll never know what there real deal was because the producer and writers were fired.

I don't count the Western ones as canon.

I guess I felt lost sometimes.

About the zodiarts rider. I think it should be someone who represents the "no man is an island" concept. Someone who sees the world as his enemies until comes to accept people as friends no matter how one thinks of one's personality. ex. Gentaro.

Fourze - Utaoshi
Zodiarts - Gamou
Meteor - Emoto

This talk of Shonen Jump, makes me want to draw Vasto Lorde Kamen Rider Shinigami. Ichigo Kurosaki's corrupted powered form.

Is it just me or is almost every Gold Rider evil? Odin, Glaive, Gaoh, Gold Drive, Mars, etc.,

...Pretty much. I think the only golden Kamen Rider (or at least, golden in base form) that's a good guy is Beast.

Also, Gaoh is orange, not gold.

Agito's gold as well, if we're talking only base forms.